Watchtower's United Nations Association

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    Celestial posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 03:51:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 70 of 129
    Joined 2/3/2012

    Temporarily, there's confusion until I get the facts straight:

    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/united-nations-association.php

    http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/default.html

    M Shawn10538 posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 04:08:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 1123 of 1268
    Joined 11/8/2005

    What are you confused about? The apologist version reads like they are talking to a bunch of two year olds. Obviously it is written by the Watchtower Society, commissioned no doubt. But reading all the propaganda found on that site, you get a picture of some really sick people who are working overtime to, oh if we could only explain away these problems, then maybe, just maybe we might be happy again.

    And why can't the Watchtower just come out and print these articles in the pages of the Watchtower? because they are full of lies. Just blatant flagrant untruths. Feel free to examine the heck out of the apoligist writings. anybody with a semester of 9th grade English can see the prtopaganda for what it is. So sad the WT is full of so many cowards that can'y just respond as the Faithful and Discreet Slave on these issues. But the FDS is just a theological concept accordinbg to WT lawyers, so it doesn't exist.

    mind blown posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 05:34:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 338 of 1534
    Joined 3/29/2010

    Therefore getting membership with YMCA just to use the "pool" would amount to apostasy.

    Watctower 1979 that said that being a member of the YMCA would be interfaith. w79 1/1 p31 says, in part:

    "In joing the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization.He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25). Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theatre ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy."

    United Nations letter regarding the Watchtower Society

    Vidqun posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 06:20:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 324 of 943
    Joined 10/27/2011

    In connection with the UN-NGO debacle. This argument I use with family and friends that are interested, based on Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14. The reasoning follow WT theology:

    NWT Matthew 24:15 Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place , (let the reader use discernment)

    NWT Mark 13:14 However, when YOU catch sight ofthe disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it ought not (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.

    First application:

    The disgusting thing causing desolation = Roman army

    In a holy place = in the temple area of Jerusalem’s temple

    Judea = literal Judea, with Jerusalem as capital

    To the mountains = the literal mountains of Israel

    Second application:

    When you catch sight of = notice, even for a short period of time

    The disgusting thing causing desolation = The UN

    Standing

    In a holy place = place of true worship

    Where it ought not

    Judea = the beautiful land, spiritual paradise of God’s anointed remnant

    Begin fleeing

    To the mountains = God’s mountain and Jesus’ mountain, more specifically to the valley between the two mountains (Zech. 14:3-5)

    The UN stood in the “holy place” for nine years, from 1992-2002. Now is a good time to flee.

    Where do we flee to? Read: Zech. 14:3-5. And take note: JWs have joined the UN, they have become part of it. The disgusting thing causing desolation have stood "where it ought not". Prophecy (in Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14) has thus been fulfilled.

    One cannot flee to God's organization, it has been compromised. The following places you should NOT flee to: The "mountains of Israel" are going to be invaded by Gog (Ezek. 38:8). The "beautiful land" (= the land of the Decoration) is going to be invaded by the King of the North (Dan. 11:41, 45). Jerusalem (= spiritual Jerusalem) is going to be captured (Zech. 13:7, 8; 14:1, 2). The two witnesses are going to be killed by the "beast from the abyss" (= the UN) (Rev. 11:7). Paul said: "Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing" (cf. Is. 52:11). By consorting with the beast, JWs have placed them on the same level as Babylon the Great (Rev. 18:4). The only place one can flee to is mentioned at Zech. 14:3-5 (for additional reading: Dan. 8:11-14).

    Celestial posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 08:24:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 71 of 129
    Joined 2/3/2012

    Vidqun, as for an inappropriate religious/political connotation, it took me thirty minutes of internet research and an apt comparison of religious and political involvement, considering what most people have been exposed to (what I have been exposed to), to tell different stories.

    When it comes to political meddling by religious organizations, you have:

    Exhibit A
    A DPI application that takes fifteen minutes for a non-government organization (NGO) to fill out, that allows an organization access to scientific, social and political research.

    http://www.un.org/wcm/content/site/dpingorelations/home/join/pid/8218

    Exhibit B

    A much more involved application process that requires two years experience as a DPI NGO and a current political (democratic decision making mechanism) agenda.

    http://csonet.org/index.php?menu=34

    United Nations: Civil Society Participation – Application for Consultative Status (ECOSOC)

    Among other requirements for obtaining consultative status are the following:

    Applying organization's activities must be relevant to the work of ECOSOC;

    The NGO must have been in existence (officially registered) for at least 2 years in order to apply;

    The NGO must have a democratic decision making mechanism;


    You have the logistics that bind Exhibit A and B to certain political agendas according to the UN charter. The Watchtower society applied as a member of the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI).
    Exhibit C

    The political agendas of mainstream Christian organizations that have the intent of transforming western civilization, primarily the United States into a political theocracy.

    http://www.focusonthefamily.com/socialissues/christians-in-politics.aspx

    Christians in Politics - Focus on the Family

    Christian Activism

    Have you ever wondered why Focus on the Family encourages its friends to be involved in the culture around them as part of their faith? How being involved in biblical citizenship is part of living our lives as “salt and light” to the world around us?

    Or have you wondered if it’s even appropriate or legal for Christian beliefs to help shape our government and policies?

    Our country offers us many benefits and blessings – and two of those are our Christian heritage and the invitation and duty for “We the People” to be actively involved in our system of government.

    http://www.focusonthefamily.com/socialissues/christians-in-politics/biblical-citizenship/christians-and-politics.aspx

    Christians and Politics

    Laws reflect morals and what's best for our society. As Christians, we have the right, calling and duty to be involved in shaping those policies.

    Part of that broad view includes getting involved in government—because government invariably is involved with all of us.


    Here, you have what most people have been exposed to, the right-wing agenda that dominates mainstream Christianity. Jehovah's Witnesses don't collectively fold into any given democratic political agenda.

    mind blown posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 09:55:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 339 of 1534
    Joined 3/29/2010

    NGO status is not required in order to access the library.

    http://www.jwfacts.com/images/UN-letter-regarding-library-card.jpg

    The DPI NGO I posted above clearly reads: The WTS applied for association with the DPI in 1991 and was granted association1992. By accepting association with DPL, the organization agreed to meet criteria for association including support and respect of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations

    Watchtower was associated with NGO and to become associated required the Watchtower to accept the following:

    • that the NGO share the ideals of the UN Charter;
    • have a demonstrated interest in United Nations issues and a proven ability to reach target or specialized audiences, such as educators, media representatives, policy makers and the business community;
    • have the commitment and means to conduct effective information programs about UN activities by publishing newsletters, bulletins and pamphlets, organizing conferences, seminars and round tables; and enlisting cooperation of the media.

    In 2001, the Awake of July 22 discusses the benefits of volunteering for the United Nations and their need for more volunteers.

    The Awake! 2000 December 8 devoted a number of pages to discussing the fine efforts of the United Nations. The Awake! 1998 November 22 also devoted several pages to discussion of the United Nations, including praising the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    http://csonet.org/index.php?menu=34

    According to resolution 1996/31 an organization "should attest that it has been in existence for at least two years as at the date of receipt

    Applications received between 2 June 2011 and 1 June 2012 will be taken up in the year 2013. (which translates a year to be accepted)

    mind blown posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:14:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 340 of 1534
    Joined 3/29/2010

    "The Bible condemns things such as stealing, idolatry and the misuse of blood, so a Christian could hardly engage in work where he directly promoted such things. Would doing the work so closely link a person with a condemned practice that he would be a clear accomplice? Even a janitor or a receptionist at a blood bank or a plant making only weapons of war is directly linked with work contrary to Gods Word." Watchtower 1982 Jul 15 Box on p.26 Employment Factors to Consider

    "No, the UN is not a blessing, even though the religious clergy of Christendom and the rabbis of Jewry pray heaven’s blessing upon that organization. It is really “the image of the wild beast,” the visible political, commercial organization of “the god of this system of things,” Satan the Devil. So the UN will soon be destroyed along with that beastly organization." Watchtower 1984 Sep 15 p.15

    Human governments have schemed to form the most brazen and defiant conspiracy against divine rule that has ever existed. (Compare Isaiah 8:11-13.) They have done so, not once, but twice, creating first the League of Nations and then the United Nations." Awake! 1990 Dec 8 p.24

    Celestial posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:21:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 72 of 129
    Joined 2/3/2012
    NGO status is not required in order to access the library.
    http://www.jwfacts.com/images/UN-letter-regarding-library-card.jpg
    The DPI NGO I posted above clearly reads: The WTS applied for association with the DPI in 1991 and was granted association1992. By accepting association with DPL, the organization agreed to meet criteria for association including support and respect of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations
    Watchtower was associated with NGO and to become associated required the Watchtower to accept the following:

      that the NGO share the ideals of the UN Charter;
      have a demonstrated interest in United Nations issues and a proven ability to reach target or specialized audiences, such as educators, media representatives, policy makers and the business community;
      have the commitment and means to conduct effective information programs about UN activities by publishing newsletters, bulletins and pamphlets, organizing conferences, seminars and round tables; and enlisting cooperation of the media.

    In 2001, the Awake of July 22 discusses the benefits of volunteering for the United Nations and their need for more volunteers.
    The Awake! 2000 December 8 devoted a number of pages to discussing the fine efforts of the United Nations. The Awake! 1998 November 22 also devoted several pages to discussion of the United Nations, including praising the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    According to the UN library card letter (who ever it's addressed to), the library pass authorizes access to the UN information database independent of an NGO status as of 2002. This was years after the Watchtower society applied for a DPI membership.

    When assessing the technicalities of an alleged scandal, you may also want to question the motives involved.

    Case in point, I remember the UN caught up in a corrupt scandal in the 1990's.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme

    The Oil-for-Food Programme (OFF), established by the United Nations in 1995 (under UN Security Council Resolution 986) was established with the stated intent to allow Iraq to sell oil on the world market in exchange for food, medicine, and other humanitarian needs for ordinary Iraqi citizens without allowing Iraq to boost its military capabilities.

    In addition to criticism of the basic approach, the programme suffered from widespread corruption and abuse. Throughout its existence, the programme was dogged by accusations that some of its profits were unlawfully diverted to the government of Iraq and to UN officials. These accusations were made in many countries, including the US and Norway.


    Political entities may have self-serving agendas and corrupt elements associated with their organization, but that doesn't mean all aspects of the organization are completely useless in their service to others. There may be corrupt elements to the United States government. This doesn't mean a person can't access or quote from the Library of Congress:

    http://www.loc.gov/index.html

    M Black Sheep posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:34:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 8600 of 9991
    Joined 8/8/2003
    According to the UN library card letter (who ever it's addressed to), the library pass authorizes access to the UN information database independent of an NGO status as of 2002. This was years after the Watchtower society applied for a DPI membership.

    Dana said that "... there has been no change ..." and does not suggest this is "... as of 2002."

    mind blown posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:41:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 341 of 1534
    Joined 3/29/2010

    The letter clearly does not say as of 2002. The inquirey letter was written in 2002 which was about the time the UN/WTS news came out.

    Question motives involved? It's Theocratic Principle.

    The WTS has many hard line stances on the flock, but when it comes to them? People have been DF'd for less. Maybe the WTS souldn't have blasted them for so many years and instilled in the flock how wicked the UN was.

    breakfast of champions posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:20:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 1233 of 4138
    Joined 5/30/2011

    The WT is still considered a NGO and attends OSCE functions on human rights in Europe. They, along with other religious sects, use this offshoot of the UN to help gain religious freedoms in "New Europe". Basically, they are lobbying the UN to put pressure on certain countries to allow freedom of religion. Is that getting involved in politics?

    mind blown posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:21:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 342 of 1534
    Joined 3/29/2010

    I guess so they can get more donations from the flock in other countries, steal/flip more KH from congregations, sell more literature, invest more in the stock market, buy more property with the flocks money.....

    .

    ENOUGH SAID......

    breakfast of champions posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:28:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 1234 of 4138
    Joined 5/30/2011

    Is this a fair point? Not really, no. First of all, when you become a member of the YMCA — an interfaith “Christian” group — you are recognized as being “integral” to that organization, a little like when you get baptized and become part of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    From the above mentioned website. This is complete bullshit. My father is not a witness and does not have a religious bone in his body. He goes to the YMCA to use the damn swimming pool. What part of that relationship is interfaith, Christian, or "integral", for that matter? And this is "a little like when you get baptized"? Maybe the swimming pool part!

    Whoever wrote this is going through some mighty mental gymnastics to prove his "only true religion who doesn't meddle in politics" isn't meddling in politics!

    cantleave posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:32:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 8198 of 13242
    Joined 6/25/2009

    Why the hell would they need a UN library card? Surely the materials there are aviable through other sources.

    cantleave posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:36:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 8199 of 13242
    Joined 6/25/2009

    Rebuttals of Jehovah's Judgement

    http://jehovahsjudgmentexposed.blogspot.com/

    http://www.randytv.com/secret/unrebut.htm

    mind blown posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 12:38:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 343 of 1534
    Joined 3/29/2010

    Watctower 1979 that said that being a member of the YMCA would be interfaith. w79 1/1 p31 says, in part:

    " In joing the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization . He is not simply paying for something he receives , such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25). Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theatre ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy."

    Sayswho posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 13:18:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 281 of 589
    Joined 4/25/2010

    If it was ok... then why keep it a secret? Most Jw that I have asked about this knew nothing and most said it was a lie.

    • For Me: THE FACT THAT THEY KEEP IT A SECRET (or "forgot" to mention it) to the flock shows that they KNEW they were going against their own teachings (gods?).
    • Level the playing field... lets all play by the same set of rules!
    • Your arguments show you to be disingenuous... you know but you don't want to admit it... so you misdirect.

    As the saying goes: "It's not a lie if you believe it"

    Sw

    Celestial posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:04:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 73 of 129
    Joined 2/3/2012

    I crossed some broad strokes and there's the fine print which can be anything, as the U.N. charter can change independent of any nationality and U.N. membership application. What it comes down to in legal terms is what document someone signed their name to and what legal bindings the U.N. document defines.

    My opinion, is there's no legal stipulation, as the U.N. operates in concept as a political entity above any federal government, as an elite agency for world peace. Supposedly, that's their primary objective. As long as you don't recognize them as such, I don't see why interacting with the U.N. or other political organizations on a limited basis should be such a problem.

    cantleave posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:34:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 8201 of 13242
    Joined 6/25/2009

    Celestial; why don't you try interacting with your local church group, even for non-religious reasons, and then telling the elders there is nothing wrong with that?

    How long do you think you will remain a member of the congregation?

    It is the duplicity and hypocrisy of the situation that creates the issue.

    M wobble posted Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:39:00 GMT(3/11/2012)

    Post 5939 of 5737
    Joined 2/20/2008

    They lied about it pure and simple, and they sent aletter to the Elders telling them how to lie about it too, good that from an Organization chosen by Jesus who says he IS the truth.

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