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Blood Fractions

    alice.in.wonderland posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:39:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Someone is pressing me about blood fractions on an unrelated thread, so I just moved the topic to an appropriate location.

    "The point for me in every thread you touch is your sickening dishonesty and nauseating apologies for the old men in Brooklyn who tell you what to do.

    They have told you that products made from blood don't use blood, and you are so corrupt and gullible you just accept it."

    I accept any Bible-based religion that adheres to the Bible as its authority.

    THE PURPOSE OF THIS MAGAZINE, The Watchtower, is to honor Jehovah God, the Supreme Ruler of the universe. Just as watchtowers in ancient times enabled a person to observe developments from afar, so this magazine shows us the significance of world events in the light of Bible prophecies. It comforts people with the good news that God’s Kingdom, which is a real government in heaven, will soon bring an end to all wickedness and transform the earth into a paradise. It promotes faith in Jesus Christ, who died so that we might gain everlasting life and who is now ruling as King of God’s Kingdom. This magazine has been published by Jehovah’s Witnesses continuously since 1879 and is nonpolitical. It adheres to the Bible as its authority.

    When a religious organization that claims to be Bible based makes official statements or publishes information, it can weighed in concordance with what the Bible says. If it synchronizes with God's Word or conflicts it can be accepted or rejected. The slightest logical fallacy however doesn't constitute an improper motive.

    "See, you are making my point; ANSWER THE QUESTION: have you been vaccinated, ever? If you have, you have taken a product made from BLOOD.

    You can't honestly say it isn't; if you don't start with the killed organism collected from blood, you can't make a vaccine."

    Christians are simply to make an adequate effort to abstain from blood (Acts 15:19-21). As a general rule, with the exception of Heptavax-B, active immunizations are not produced from blood. This includes all baby shots, for example. The opposite is true of passive immunization (tetanus, rabies). A tetanus shot is an immune globulin and therefore a "blood fraction." Once again it's an individual's uninfluenced decision. To my understanding a recombinant (synthetic) human rabies immunoglobulin has been developed. I will not necessarily share my medical history as it's none of a person's business, copy?

    "This is a facile lie; if they were just organic compounds, then why don't JW's use the organic compounds instead of blood fractions? HERE is the thing you will not admit: IT COMES FROM BLOOD, the substance you say is so sacred it should be poured out."

    The instruction for blood to be poured out on the ground was under the Mosaic law covenant. We're not under the Mosaic law. There are other things in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that obviously have no application to the Christian congregation (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

    On the subject of blood components in comparison with fractions: plasma for example is a major component unique to only blood as created by God. Without plasma, blood cells would have no medium to travel on as they moved through the body. If you systematically break down any aspect of human composition, you eventually get to the same elements found in the earth beneath us. This is the reasoning as to why the use of blood fractions can be acceptable.

    w80 10/1 p. 13 Science Attests the Accuracy of the Bible

    Has modern medical science confirmed the fact that man was formed from mineral elements from the earth’s soil?

    In their joint work Les oligoéléments (Trace Elements), Andrée Goudot and Didier Bertrand, member of the French Agricultural Academy, inform us:“In all the living organisms studied, in addition to carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, phosphorus, calcium, sulfur, chlorine, magnesium, potassium and sodium, the presence of the following elements can be considered to be a proved fact: six nonmetallic elements: fluorine, bromine, iodine, boron, arsenic and silicon; a transition element: vanadium; and thirteen metals: iron, zinc, manganese, copper, nickel, cobalt, lithium, rubidium, cesium, aluminium, titanium, chromium, molybdenum and also probably tin, lead, silver, gallium, strontium and barium.” All these substances are to be found in the earth’s crust, proving that man is truly formed from the ground, as the Bible states.

    For many centuries, the Bible has stated that the blood of a creature represents its life, or soul.“The soul of every sort of flesh is its blood.”(Lev. 17:14) Is this position medically sound? It is a scientific fact that blood is intimately involved in the life processes. Furthermore, science has discovered quite recently that each person’s blood is specific and unique. Léone Bourdel, professor at the French Higher School of Anthropobiology, writes as follows:“The genetical combinations in procreation are such that our blood is unique, never identical to that of either of our parents, nor to that of our children. And we make this same blood all our life. In fact, no matter how many transfusions we may receive, we will never adopt the blood that the donor has given us; it is always our own blood that prevails and that is renewed perpetually and identically.”

    Human blood plasma is a complex component of blood and reflects intelligent design in life science. The isolated agents that comprise blood plasma reflect intelligent design in physics.

    w00 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers

    Blood is complex. Even the plasma—which is 90 percent water—carries scores of hormones, inorganic salts, enzymes, and nutrients, including minerals and sugar. Plasma also carries such proteins as albumin, clotting factors, and antibodies to fight diseases. Technicians isolate and use many plasma proteins. For example, clotting factor VIII has been given to hemophiliacs, who bleed easily. Or if someone is exposed to certain diseases, doctors might prescribe injections of gamma globulin, extracted from the blood plasma of people who already had immunity. Other plasma proteins are used medically, but the above mentioned illustrate how a primary blood component (plasma) may be processed to obtain fractions.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1152371/

    Complex-formation and inhibition of urokinase by blood plasma proteins.

    If you continue to break down blood components into fractions, it no longer carries any attributes that reflects intelligent design in life science. It may carry attributes that reflect intelligent design in physics, but it doesn't have a direct relationship with life's blood. Jehovah's Witnesses came to an agreement as to where a line can be drawn.

    Hemoglobin is not an element.

    Albumin is not an element.

    Cryoprecipitate is not an element.

    Cryosupernatant is not an element.

    Platelet Factor IV is not an element.

    I didn't say these were elements. I was simply outlining a premise for the use of blood fractions.

    Hemoglobin for example is an iron-containing oxygen-transport metalloprotein in the red blood cells of vertebrates. Proteins (also known as polypeptides) are organic compounds made of amino acids. Amino acids are molecules that contain the key elements of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen.

    Amino acids, carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen are not unique to just blood. The protein hemoglobin isn't unique to just blood.

    Hemoglobin is a protein also found in the tissues of some invertebrates.

    Using products being developed from human or animal hemoglobin to treat patients with acute anemia or massive blood loss doesn't constitute an inadequate effort to abstain from blood in my book because it's not unique to blood.

    The proteins that compose cryoprecipitate found in plasma are unique to blood but they're just for clotting; blood clot factor VIII, fibrinogen, von Willebrand factor and factor XIII are synthesized by the liver, connective tissue, etc. but I know that factor VIII can be genetically engineered for hemophiliacs.

    If a person chooses to refuse cryoprecipitate for this reason that's up to them.

    If you yourself will accept whole blood or the four major components but at the same time using trickery and deceit to work both sides of the debate; that isn't honest. The reason the faithful and discreet slave left the acceptance or refusal of these blood products an individual choice is because or these types of people.

    Lozhasleft posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:44:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Yawn

    Loz x

    brotherdan posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:44:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Alice, I don't care to read your post. From your past posts I know that it is just a rehashing of what the WT has said about the subject. You are unable to think on your own and reason. Having said this, I will make 1 argument.

    If you are going to say that taking blood is wrong and is a disfellowshiping, death dealing offense, then you cannot say that taking blood fractions is a conscience matter. Blood fractions are NOT just a component of blood. The WT has constantly said that we are to dispose of blood by immediately spilling it upon the earth. The handling of blood fractions is not like this. Blood is taken, examined, tested, extracted, and developed into everything from anti snake venom medicines to vaccinations. How can you make the distinction between blood and blood fractions?!? The Bible does not do this.

    So according to what the WT says, blood transfusions should actually be a conscience matter. Not just blood fractions.

    Alice, why don't you go away? No one appreciates your comments on this board. You just solidify the knowledge that people like yourself are stuck in a cult.

    I have a strong feeling that you are counting time for service. When God finally confronts you, I wonder if he will bring up all the time you spent on this board trying to sway others away from him... I wonder if he will say, "Alice (or whatever your name is), why did you spend 2000+ hours trying to sway my servants away from me and fool them into thinking that the WT was my organization?" What will you say?

    Lozhasleft posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:46:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Where's my popcorn....?

    Loz x

    bohm posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:47:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Lozhasleft: my thoughts exactly :-).

    brotherdan posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:57:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Seriously...boring. Let's talk about the fact that 607 is not a correct historical date so we can really get to sleep...

    alice.in.wonderland posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:09:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    "Alice, why don't you go away? No one appreciates your comments on this board. You just solidify the knowledge that people like yourself are stuck in a cult."

    If a logical answer offends you??? You solidify the knowledge that people like yourself lie and can't handle even one objective person poking holes in your arguments.

    brotherdan posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:13:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    What hole did you poke? There's only one hole that I'd let you poke and it's not mine. The "proof" that you use is PURELY from the WT. If I give you an example from the Bible (which I will no longer waste on a person such as yourself- Mat 7:6: Which you will not read...will you? ) you will not read it nor give it any consideration.

    You are one of the worst. You will not answer nor argue with scripture. You view the WT and GB as your authority. That's it. So you can go and feel like no one is logical, and keep living that way.

    M thetrueone posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:27:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Joined 9/18/2006

    If anything the ever changing blood policy by the WTS. is illogical and nonsensical in its implementation.

    BrotherDan says : So according to what the WTS. says, blood transfusions should actually be a conscience matter. Not just blood fractions.

    The problem is the blood issue can never be reversed into a conscience matter for it would put the WTS into legal

    jeopardy with wrongful deaths suits, added to that, the break in the organization's self proclaimed proclamation

    that they are the only true and sole possessors of god's holy spirit . ( Too dangerous of an adjustment )

    wasblind posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:35:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Joined 6/13/2010

    Alice says: ". If you systematically break down any aspect of human composition, you eventually get to the same elements found in the earth beneath us. This is the reasoning as to why the use of blood fractions can be acceptable."

    In the Reasoning from the Scriptures book on page 71 it states:"Any food to which whole blood or even some blood fraction has been added should not be eaten."

    if what you state is true today about human composition, then what make fractions unacceptable in the reasoning book ?

    i'm really trying to have a logical conversation Alice

    palmtree67 posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:42:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Alice, the topic of blood fractions has been hashed and re-hashed on this board over and over.

    Instead of starting yet another thread on it, why don't you read some the threads already here? Because quite frankly, you haven't added one iota of new information.

    Have you forgotten that most of us here were Witnesses? You can't fool us with your lies.

    You said once that TD and Leolaia were the only ones on this board that were intelligent enough for you to debate with. (Although I notice that neither of them has much to say on your threads.....)

    Why not read TD's points in this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/182412/1/Im-Still-Torn-About-the-Blood-Issue

    Your argument above has poked holes in absolutely nothing.

    wasblind posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:45:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Alice says: "The reason the faithful and discreet slave left the acceptance or refusal of these blood products an individual choice is because or these types of people"

    Alice are you saying that the Organization allows popular demands by the people to direct their steps and change Gods laws ?

    alice.in.wonderland posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:46:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    If someone wants to address what I said here, fine. I'm not going through any archives that were posted before I was here.

    wasblind posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:50:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Alice the Jehovahs Witnesses still use the Reasoning from the Scriptures book

    so that means it is not an archive yet

    alice.in.wonderland posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:53:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    " If you systematically break down any aspect of human composition, you eventually get to the same elements found in the earth beneath us. This is the reasoning as to why the use of blood fractions can be acceptable."

    In the Reasoning from the Scriptures book on page 71 it states:"Any food to which whole blood or even some blood fraction has been added should not be eaten."

    if what you state is true today about human composition, then what make fractions unacceptable in the reasoning book ?

    i'm really trying to have a logical conversation Alice"

    rs p. 71 par. 2 Blood

    Similarly, any food to which whole blood or even some blood fraction has been added should not be eaten.

    ---------------------

    Common sense 101: What would be the point in eating blood or a blood fraction as the fraction has no sound medical purpose?

    wasblind posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:55:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Alice says: "If a logical answer offends you??? You solidify the knowledge that people like yourself lie and can't handle even one objective person poking holes in your arguments"

    alice, If a logical question offends you ??? you know how the rest of the statement go, after all you wrote it

    Deputy Dog posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:59:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    Joined 4/19/2003

    A.I.W

    When a religious organization that claims to be Bible based makes official statements or publishes information, it can weighed in concordance with what the Bible says.

    Oh yah?

    Christians are simply to make an adequate effort to abstain from blood (Acts 15:19-21).

    What does the bible say about pets abstaining from blood?

    The answer is NOTHING.

    Look at what your WT says about it.

    WT 2/15/64

    QuestionsfromReaders

    WoulditbeaviolationoftheScripturesforaChristiantopermitaveterinariantogivebloodtransfusionstoapet?Andwhatofanimalfood?Mayitbeusedifthereisreasontobelievethereisbloodinit?Also,isitpermissibletousefertilizerthathasbloodinit?

    The psalmist declared at Psalm 119:97: "How I do love your law! All day long it is my concern." Such a love of God’s law and a concern for it would surely cause a dedicated servant of God to avoid any violation of God’s law whatsoever. God’s law on blood is very clear. Blood is not to be used as food and, when withdrawn from a body, it is to be poured out on the ground. (Gen. 9:3, 4; Lev. 3:17; Deut. 12:16, 23, 24; Acts 15:20, 28, 29) Christians certainly would not wish to do anything in violation of Jehovah’s law on blood. Love for God and for the righteous laws and principles of his Word calls forth that response from them in matters pertaining to blood.

    Since God’s law on blood has not been altered over the centuries, Christians today realize that they are bound by it. Please note, however, that it is not fear of some reprisal that moves them to comply with Jehovah’s law on blood. They do not obey God’s law simply because violation of it might result in the imposing of sanctions by the Christian congregation of which they are a part. They love what is right. Furthermore, because of their love of God’s law they will not rationalize or seek ways in which it appears possible to circumscribe it with seeming impunity.

    How, then, must we answer the question, Would it be a violation of the Scriptures for a Christian to permit a veterinarian to give blood transfusions to a pet? By all means, to do so would be a violation of the Scriptures.To use blood for transfusion purposes, even in the case of an animal, would be improper. The Bible is very clear in showing that blood should not be eaten. It should not be infused, therefore, to build up the body’s vital forces, either in the case of a human or in the case of a pet or any other animal under the jurisdiction of a Christian.

    In harmony with this, surely a Christian parent could not rationalize to the effect that a pet belongs to a minor child and thus this unbaptized child might, on its own, authorize a veterinarian to administer the blood. No. The baptized parent bears the responsibility, for that parent has authority over the child and over the pet and should control the entire matter. That is the parent’s obligation before God.—Eccl. 12:13, 14; Jas. 4:17.

    What, then, of animal food? May it be used if there is reason to believe there is blood in it? As far as a Christian is concerned, the answer is No, on the basis of principles already mentioned. Therefore, if a Christian discovers that blood components are listed on the label of a container of dog food or some other animal food, he could not conscientiously feed that product to any animal over which he has jurisdiction. He could not conclude that doing so would be excusable, for this would not be a case of an animal killing another animal and helping itself to the blood of that creature. No, this would be a direct act on the part of the Christian, making him responsible for feeding blood to a pet or other animal belonging to him.

    Of course, if there is no indication on the label of a package of animal food that the product contains blood, a Christian might conclude that it could be used. Still, his conscience might trouble him. In that case he should put his conscience to rest by making reasonable inquiry and acting in accord with the information he receives, for a Christian surely desires to have a good conscience before God.—1 Pet. 3:21.

    But now, what about fertilizer that has blood in it? One who is going to show respect for God’s law on blood would not use it. True, according to the Mosaic law, blood when taken from a body was to be poured out upon the ground and covered over with dust. (Lev. 17:13, 14) The objective was, however, that the blood should serve no useful purpose when thus disposed of. It was not placed on the ground with the thought in mind that it would serve as fertilizer. Hence, no Christian farmer today could properly spread blood on his fields to fertilize the soil, nor would he use commercial fertilizer containing blood. Such blood use would be a commercializing on something that God has reserved for himself. It would be a violation of God’s Word.

    Servants of God have been told in the Scriptures what is to be done with blood. So they know that they would be held responsible by Jehovah for any misuse of blood over which they might have control. What is more, because they love God they are prompted to observe the laws and principles of his Word. Thus they are moved to keep Jehovah’s law on blood even in ways that might appear to some to be insignificant. They do not view compliance with it as an encumbrance, for they hold in remembrance the words of 1 John 5:3, which states: "For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome."

    palmtree67 posted Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:59:00 GMT(8/27/2010)

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    If someone wants to address what I said here, fine. I'm not going through any archives that were posted before I was here.

    You truly are an idiot.

    Essan posted Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:04:00 GMT(8/28/2010)

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    Alice, you said " If you systematically break down any aspect of human composition, you eventually get to the same elements found in the earth beneath us. This is the reasoning as to why the use of blood fractions can be acceptable."

    This is similar to saying that if you put a human in an acid bath, then " you eventually get to the same elements found in the earth beneath us".

    So would it not be murder as long as you reduce the victim to basic elements?

    To get to the elements, in both cases, requires actions the Society insist are inherently wrong and say Christians should have no part in!

    It's hypocrisy.

    No blood or blood products whatsoever would be understandable - wrong, but understandable - but the present stance is hypocritical and makes no real sense.

    M jwfacts posted Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:06:00 GMT(8/28/2010)

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    The fact that the Watchtower used to say fractions were wrong, but now say they are ok, shows they have no idea what they are talking about and cannot be relied upon. It is dangerous for people like you to put forward such ignorant ideas that lead to the death of mindless followers

    On the subject of blood components in comparison with fractions: ...

    If you continue to break down blood components into fractions, ...

    Those statements are spurious, and show your gullibility for Watchtower logic. The Watchtower has coined the terms fraction vs component simply to make it seem there is a difference. In reality a component is just a fraction. There is no logical reason that a component is any different or more wrong to use than a "minor fraction".

    Jehovah's Witnesses came to an agreement as to where a line can be drawn.

    Another stupid comment. JW's did not come to agreement. The leaders tell JWs what to believe, whether they agree or not. And there is no agreement between the leaders either; shown by new leaders replacing what previous leaders taught.

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