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Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
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Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 02:53:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 1568 of 4778 Since 12/3/2005 |
PLEASE READ THIS POST! THE IRELAND CASE IS A BIG LOSS FOR THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY. IT'S A BIG WIN FOR EX-JWS. I read the very, very , very long Irish High Court's opinion. The judge's writings are priceless, and the Watchtower should heed warning that it better change its blood policy. The entire judge's opinion is at: Below is my short outline of the case; and highlights I thought were important. Please read the case. I'm sure you'll see things that I missed. Blondie-work needed. ********************************************************** FACTS: Ms. K is from Africa, has been a JW since 1995, and her father is a HLC elder back in Africa. Ms. K entered Ireland from Africa on bad paperwork. She is pregnant, and goes to the Irish hospital on multiple occassions for prenatal visits, tours, etc. She never bothers to tell the hospital that she was a JW. On admittance, she lists that she is a Roman Catholic (my note: the vilest of all religions to a JW) and states that the father of the child is in Africa. In fact, the father is also illegally in Ireland specifically for his wife's birth; and visited her in the hospital before heavy labor began...a fact the hospital staff doesn't know at delivery or the terrible hours afterwards. Her sister-in-law is in the hospital room during labor & delivery. Her sister-in-law is also a JW and is interpreting for her. But, her sister-in-law speaks broken French, and can't communicate medical terms well. Ms. K gives birth to a baby boy. The unimaginable happens, and she bleeds out 75% of her own blood, after ripping apart inside. Her hemoglobin goes from a normal 11 to a very anemic 5.1. It was her first delivery. The sister-in-law reports that Ms. K. is a JW and refuses blood. Ms. K. also brokenly states that she doesn't want blood. Ms. K. can't produce her "no blood card". The hospital tries to respect the woman's wishes & contacts the local congregation. The HLC elder sends an information sheet to the hospital. The hospital follows the instructions, and gives Ms. K. a blood fraction to stop bleeding. For over an hour, the doctor hand-holds a tampon like device inside Ms. K to stop bleeding on her cervix. The doctor consults with a few other doctors, and all state the urgency the she gets blood. While Ms. K is stable, she could re-bleed again. If her re-bleed is internal, the doctors will not know it. (Plus, woman bleed for several weeks after giving birth....). The doctors tell Ms. K. the urgency of her medical situation. But, she replies with a general disbeleif that this she will likely die. Finally, she states in a serious tone to give her Coke & Tomatoes. The hospital thinks the woman does not have a full deck, and that the baby is going to be orphan. So, the doctor consults with the hospital attorney, and they rush to the courthouse. The trial judge hears the case, and orders a blood transfusion. The woman does not understand the situation, her child is going to be an orphan, and she doesn't appear to be a bona fide JW who has everything in order. The doctor sedates Ms. K to give her a blood transfusion. (Ms. K tried to rip out the lines.). Ms. K and baby boy live. Ms. K. sues the hospital on various legal grounds. She wants $$$$$$$$$. ISSUES: There were many issues in this case. But, the main issue is whether Ms. K. gave "informed consent." The court ultimately ruled that Ms. K. could not give informed consent as Ms. K did not demonstrate that she understood the gravity of her decision. The evidence was the lack of blood card, parading as a Roman Catholic, and the Coke & Tomatoes remedy. In other words, Ms. K was just another lulu sister that every KH has.... Interestingly, Ms. K gets on the stand and said that JWs understood that Coke and Tomatoes and Eggs were good blood substitutes as they helped build blood, provided iron, and energy.
While a side issue in this case was whether Ms. K was coerced, COERCION is a BIG ISSUE...and this judge sends a warning to the Watchtower. The judge would not decide the issue of coercion for Ms. K. because it was not an issue in the original court pleadings. But, the judge said that the potential for coercion exists within the JW blood situation (annual, group meeting to renew blood cards, disfellowshipping, etc.); and each case must be judged on a "case by case" basis.
The JWs tried to argue that a blood transfusion was not necessary. To aid their argument, the JWs called three, distinguished medical experts to take the stand. All three of these demi-God-like doctors stated that they would have ordered a blood transfusion for Ms. K if she wasn't a JW. The judge looked at their testimony for the standard medical care, and determined that a blood transfusion was medically necessary. Another
The JWs tried to argue many court cases supporting their side. The judge slammed the JWs on these legal arguments. The judge took the time to show why each of the case holdings had no application to the present case. The judge easily figured out the Watchtower's faulty logic. In one case, the JWs tried to take a case that dealt with commercial contracts and notice of suits....to this blood case. The judge made the Watchtower attorneys look like fools. The JWs also tried to argue that the hospital doctors and hospital lawyers were not open and honest with the judge who ordered the emergency blood. The Court slammed the Watchtower again. Basically, the Court said that the hospital lawyers and doctors were as frank and prepared as they could be given the emergency situation....which was caused by Ms. K. not being frank and honest with the hospital. Throughout the case, Ms. K stuck to her guns that she was making a religious choice, and not a medical choice. She specifically evaded questions about blood fractions, and about what was talked about in the congregation. I have no doubt that this was good coaching on part of the Watchtower attorneys. After "Jehovah's Witnesses, Blood Transfusions, and the Tort of Misrepresentation"......the Watchtower attorneys are likely very wary about having their dirty laundry aired in court (i.e. exposing their hypocritical beleifs, misquotes, and faulty arguments on blood fractions). So, instead of having Ms. K. answer about her medical understanding (remember, her father was a HLC elder), I really think she was coached by Watchtower attorneys to rely on religious grounds and repeatedly told to not discuss medical knowledge. This shows me that the Watchtower attorneys realize the bomb that's waiting to explode in court. Ms. K. also lied about blood transfusion being between "the follower & Jehovah." I suspect this was another coaching by Watchtower attorneys in the art of theocratic lying. Again, the Watchtower attorneys are worried that courts (or England's Charity Commission) will figure out the COERCION that's prevelant in JWs decision to forego blood. The Watchtower attorneys likely told Ms. K to repeat that this was "her decision, between her & Jehovah"; so as to take the heat off the Watchtower's coercion sword of shunning, disclosing medical records/followers report on each other to JC, etc.
Skeeter's Notes: I bet Ms. K will be reprimanded for her misdeeds of lying. Why? The Watchtower lost in court. I bet there will be an upcoming article in about 6 months stressing the importance of JW adults to be well versed in the blood argument and to have all of their legal documents in order. I bet the Watchtower will make all blood decisions between the follower and Jehovah. Why? Legal coercion argument goes out the window. No coercion because no disfellowshipping or disassociation whip. Also, this fixes the fraction hypocrisy. Each follower must decide either: 1) no blood, 2) some blood products, or 3) any blood. It's all between JW & Jehovah. |
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 03:21:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 58 of 667 Since 2/2/2008 |
Thanks for the summary, skeeter. I've never heard the "Coke and tomatoes" thing. That's crazy.
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sweet pea
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 03:29:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() CaliforniaPost 495 of 1254 Since 4/10/2007 |
The WTS is welcome to all the recruitment growth it can handle in Africa.
Assuming its their best and brightest that manage illegal entry to the West as healthcare tourists and then attempt to bring ill-founded suit for
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 03:44:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 1569 of 4778 Since 12/3/2005 |
I forgot to mention the following... The High Court judge was TICKED OFF that this case took so long
I have only heard a county judge say these types of comments off the record when there was a friviolous claim. I have never read this type of admonishment in a final court opinion....until now. This case is costing Irish taxpayers over one million ($1,000,000) Euro's. The Irish taxpayers will be extra mad when the JDubs ring their doorbell this weekend. This means less potential followers in Ireland. This Ms. K. really stumbled alot of people with her lies. I have no doubt that WT Legal department was central in bringing this cse. WT Legal put its bet on a follower who was illegally in Ireland, had a bad habit of lying, and ended up costing this Irish hospital alot of money. WT Legal placed the wrong bet, and lost. Now, WT Legal has to deal with a judge's decision that: (1) paves the way for coercion argumentss against the Watchtower; (2) sets up the criteria for "informed decision". The informed decision includes that followers be able to demonstrate that they understand the gravity of the no-blood decision (i.e. acknowledge they might just d-i-e). This means WT Writing Depatment should do better to warn followers of the "no blood" consequences; and to shoot straight on the medical information so followers don't look like baffoons in court. The WT Legal department also needs to pick better experts...one's that don't unwittingly testify for the Satan doctors who administered blood. Skeeter |
Awakened at Gilead
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 03:50:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() New YorkPost 381 of 2729 Since 4/7/2008 |
I can't believe the Society would let her sue especially after she posed as a catholic. Shows how brainless they are and how they think Jehovah will move things for them...
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Awakened at Gilead
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Re: Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 03:51:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() New YorkPost 382 of 2729 Since 4/7/2008 |
Now, we find out that this case is going to cost Irish taxpayers over one million ($1,000,000) Euro's. The Irish taxpayers will be extra mad when the JDubs ring their doorbell this weekend. Can't they charge this to the WTS????? |
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 04:05:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 1570 of 4778 Since 12/3/2005 |
Anderson_Info reported a news story from Ireland that the Hospital was stuck with its own costs...(see below) ******************************************************* Story from RTÉ News: |
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 13:03:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 1572 of 4778 Since 12/3/2005 |
bttt
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 13:34:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 4197 of 14548 Since 5/10/2007 |
Good. The more those cockroaches lose, the less they will have to start the Second Dark Ages by manipulating the governments.
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 14:28:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() WisconsinPost 680 of 703 Since 1/17/2005 |
I can't believe the Society would let her sue especially after she posed as a catholic. Shows how brainless they are and how they think Jehovah will move things for them... This very well IS what the WTS wants. Think about it. Early history of the Dubs shows them pissing off City officials getting arrested and then chanting "persecution" "Satan is angry and his time is short" The dam/dike has so many holes in it and the WTS lawyers have to plug them somehow. The last Kingdom News campaign that they held brought up a great uproar concerning the pedophile priests (and not their own) Even the latest news and letter concerning the BookStudy. To state (infur) that the increasing Gas prices is a direct attack to JW's by Satan and his worldly follows is crazy, but it takes minds off of the real issues. "Don't concern yourself with the Pay Off of Elder Pedophile Victims, don't concern yourself with the loss of publisher numbers, don't concern yourself with education, don't concern yourself that you need to follow the direction and AUTHORITY of the elders (as they are God's)... Add your own concerns (here). They are initiating this 'Self-fulfilling prophecy' Yes the WTS knows exactly what they are doing. But then...so do we. |
Honesty
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 16:29:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() TennesseePost 7822 of 9191 Since 1/12/2005 |
In other words, Ms. K was just another lulu sister that every KH has....
I knew a lot of neurotic sisters but she takes the cake.
Let's hope the cult sues and sues and sues and sues and sues.
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cognac
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 16:45:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() MassachusettsPost 995 of 2613 Since 1/7/2008 |
Now, we find out that this case is going to cost Irish taxpayers over one million ($1,000,000) Euro's. The Irish taxpayers will be extra mad when the JDubs ring their doorbell this weekend. Can't they charge this to the WTS?????![]() |
GoingGoingGone
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 17:15:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 1626 of 1777 Since 7/30/2005 |
Thanks for posting this, skeeter!!! One step at a time, the WT blood policy is tumbling down..... GGG |
kwintestal
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 17:21:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() OntarioPost 3173 of 3378 Since 8/23/2004 |
Can this information be used for the Canadian Supreme court case at the end of the month? Would the judge's opinion, especially on the issue of coersion make a diference? Kwin |
jgnat
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 17:24:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() AlbertaPost 14771 of 21100 Since 7/4/2002 |
Wow, this is great news. I like that judge. Is there a higher court? Would the WTS appeal, or go away to lick their wounds?
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 18:00:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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Post 1602 of 2584 Since 4/15/2006 |
The watchtower only reacts to legal threats and the potential loss of large amounts of money. The blood doctrine cannot stand up in court, hence their refusal to even answer questions about it. The issue of coersion is the most interesting. If that can be established in court, it would actually become a conscience issue. Thanks for posting this, skeeter. |
wha happened?
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 18:03:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() CaliforniaPost 902 of 11280 Since 10/2/2004 |
An appeal is very likely with the WTS. The Coca Cola and egg comment is very odd. However it depends on what is getting circulated in Africa in regards to blood alternatives. She may have been told this by other JW's.
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dinah
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Re: Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 18:06:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() AlabamaPost 3125 of 9671 Since 12/6/2005 |
BIG WIN FOR EX-JWS: (Ireland Judge Opinion)"It is possible that in a particular case a court might conclude that the decision of a Jehovah’s Witness to execute an advance directive or, in particular circumstances, to refuse a life-saving blood transfusion was motivated by peer pressure or fear of social or economic deprivation due to disfellowship or disassociation to the extent that the decision was not voluntary. .......Every case must be decided on its own facts" Peer pressure. That's why I was so sick about that 14 year-old boy dying from treatable leukemia. They got away with that one.
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greendawn
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Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 18:42:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() EnglandPost 12545 of 12696 Since 4/9/2004 |
The WTS blood policy is so ridiculous I can't understand why any state or court tolerates it. It's obvious enough people that are willing to go against the mighty survival instinct and choose death over life for the sake of denying blood which was willingly and harmlessly donated to save lives, have been mind conditioned and coerced by their well known spiritual mentors.
In effect they don't choose, they are tricked into choosing life over death with devious arguments. It's time that courts recognized the WTS leaders for the dangerous vermin that they are. |
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Re: Re: Watchtower LOSES BIG on BLOOD in Court
posted Sat, 10 May 2008 19:32:00 GMT
(5/10/2008)
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![]() Post 1573 of 4778 Since 12/3/2005 |
Cognac, The judge ordered each side to pay their own costs. See my above post, which points to a post by Anderson_Info . That other post has the detail on who foots the legal bills. JGNat, This case was heard by the High Court. Like the United States, Ireland has a Supreme Court that could also hear this case. In addition, there are some courts in the European Union that may also hear this case. We'll see if the Watchtower takes this case to a higher authority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Ireland Skeeter |


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The JWs looked like fools.

(black eye) dealt by the judge to the Watchtower attorneys.

BIG WIN FOR EX-JWS....BIG WIN FOR EX-JWS......BIG WIN FOR EX-JWS

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