Why WT Elders can't handle child abuse cases

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    JT posted Wed, 29 May 2002 14:45:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 1836 of 4261
    Joined 1/2/2001

    If we walk away with nothing from this whole issue on Dateline

    i think the following is so important

    let us compare the Appointed Elders who are asked to look into the matter of child molestation,

    guys who spend thier working hours doing cleaning, janitorial work, plumbers and mostly low paying or blue collar jobs-

    while in and of themselves there is nothing wrong with such jobs,

    i dare anyone to honestly state that with such a background

    they are equiped to handle and question persons who have been molested

    in fact even college educated persons ------are not usually trained in this special area -

    they may be great structual engineers, but more than likely very little in their formal training prepared them to deal with this type of issue.

    yet wt has entrusted such persons to do just that.

    many of us who have served as elders recall very vividly how we were constantly told how we recieved the greatest training in the world

    we were COMPLETELY EQUIPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK INCLUDING CHILD MOLESTATION ISSUE.

    in fact the avg jw has been told so many times in their life to

    TURN TO THE ELDERS IT AIN;T EVEN FUNNY

    it is not sad to think that a bunch of guys who hand out Cheese on Crackers at Walmart for a living are convinced to believe that they are qualified to handle such issues

    and when they call bethel for help and they are talking to some bro on the Service desk - in most cases they are talking to a guy who came to bethel at 19 worked in the laundry, cleaning or factory, was a good yes man, and moved up from the manual labor work at bethel to a desk job as a secretary and later got his own secretary and now he has 35 yrs of bethel service with or without a HS Diploma and now our Cheese Cracker bro is on the phone talking to our YES man on an issue this involved- with it's emotional , psycholgical and physicall ramifications on this person's life and the first question is :

    "Bro What state do you live in?"

    yes you got a clown on both ends of the phone and now some little 7yr old girl will have life and happiness decisions made in here behalf that will impact her for years to come

    how sad indeed

    00000000
    what is even funnier is how they could convince the rest of the rank and file jw to accept a guy who hands out Cheese Crackers at Walmart to be viewed and esteemed as the ALL WISE AND KNOWING one among them.

    well when the Sh#t hits the fan this is how wt explains about the quality of thier Elders:

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    JR Brown WT Spokesman: when asked about the calibur of the elders he stated :

    "Elders are basically Untrained volunteers"

    so much for that spirit directed stuff-----

    now can you imagine that you are sitting on the runway in a 747 at LAX and they annouce over the PA

    this is to inform you that in the cabin today is Leroy, Fred and Ralph they are all Untrained Volunteers who will be flying us overseas

    yes this is what it is like my friends

    this quote below explains what needs to be done and why THEY ARE AT LEAST TRAINED:

    1) go to the police FIRST. They are trained and expereinced investigators.

    2) The child should be interrogated by a TRAINED EXPERIENCED person FIRST, social worker or police, who are trained

    3) The accused needs to be interrogated by TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED person FIRST..social workers or police

    ########

    JUST MY 2
    jAMES

    202-336-8792 WASHINGTON DC

    Black Man posted Wed, 29 May 2002 14:53:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 163 of 705
    Joined 3/20/2001

    I can't think of a better way to sum it up......That's on-point JT....

    Nathan Natas posted Wed, 29 May 2002 14:53:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 1357 of 9589
    Joined 4/25/2001

    I'm glad you're still visiting here.

    "Cheese Cracker" elder - I love you man!

    Dutchie posted Wed, 29 May 2002 14:57:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 687 of 1824
    Joined 3/6/2002

    Hi JT. That was a profound statement. I'm glad to came to visit for a while.


    F waiting posted Wed, 29 May 2002 15:00:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 5195 of 6501
    Joined 5/13/2000

    Well, HEY!!! JT,

    I haven't read your post yet - just tickled to see your name!

    Now, I will properly go back and read seriously.

    waiting

    Grunt posted Wed, 29 May 2002 15:11:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 275 of 421
    Joined 7/24/2000

    Those "cheese craker elders" better be thinking about their cheesy little butts too, as they will be hung out to dry on their own "volunteer" credentials and an enormous distance will quickly develop between them and Brooklyn. I doubt many of their phone calls will be returned once they start getting sued. The "Yes" man will soon learn a different answer, "NO" brother, uh, we never intended that and I don't think you will find that in any of our WRITTEN correspondance! The Mormans let an elder of theirs HANG for following orders once, and I suspect the WT would love to give up a few OTHER sheep to get this off their backs. Barbara Anderson probably has room for complaint over defamation of character, and I would love to see everybody that can think of a possible reason contact a lawyer see if they would be interested in doing it on a contingency basis. As many hungry ambulance chasers as we have out there, I imagine a lot would be eager for a shot a piece of the Tower. I would love to see a feeding frenzy myself. Oh the gnashing of teeth there would be in Brooklyn when their True Love, the almighty Dollar was being molested for a change. Then we would see some real changes. We know where their treasure really is and it sure isn't heaven.

    F concerned mama posted Wed, 29 May 2002 15:13:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 204 of 710
    Joined 10/7/2001

    Excellent post, JT! Nice to hear (read from)you again.

    What constantly blows my mind, as a worldly person, is the mind control that allow the rank and file JW to believe these elders are so wise and well trained. How they will accept the judgement and advice of these elders against their own common sence and instinct to protect their children. It baffles me! Even now, I'm afraid most will not question the organization. It is the mind control I find so very very scary.

    Imbue posted Wed, 29 May 2002 15:53:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 846 of 1069
    Joined 2/23/2002

    JTsays:

    The child should be interrogated by a TRAINED EXPERIENCED person FIRST, social worker or police, who are trained

    Interrogated is a strong word for this maybe assessed by a trained psychologist would be more accurate. I hope for the children.

    "Elders are basically Untrained volunteers" LOL...We all knew this but were told other wise, as you said, over and over again. Hmm... They only make such statements when trying to wiggle out of a tight spot. So, they must be squirming. It feels so good!

    In my area many elders are college educated. Some are professors, psychologists, accountants, lawyers and too many programmers to mention. However NONE of them are trained for the special situation of child molestation. An elders lack of education, special training and experience is the issue. These one day meeting to train elders will never make them specially trained for anything. An example is the so called special training the elders received to handling battered woman's issues. It didn't help most of them they still live in the dark ages on everything to do with family issues.

    JT It's good to read your thoughts again!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "The only good elite are dead elite!!"-Naeblis
    (Ok! He borrowed it)

    M TR posted Wed, 29 May 2002 16:05:00 GMT(5/29/2002)

    Post 3083 of 3844
    Joined 9/18/2000

    Once again JT hits a home run with this topic.

    'hovahs ASSume that 'hovah is guiding them no matter who the dim-bulb is that handles these sensitive matters. God's guidance is better than trained professionals, you know.[8>]

    TR

    UADNA-WA
    Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America- Washington Division

    Tanalyst posted Thu, 30 May 2002 03:10:00 GMT(5/30/2002)

    Post 118 of 142
    Joined 2/11/2001

    JT you got that right!

    The head honcho at Service Dept. used to be a painter at Bethel;Campbell is his name. Dateline may never had happened if he had a degree in psychology.Decades ago if you wanted to crawl up the ladder you didn't rock the boat, you were a yes man to Knorr and Co.

    Pathofthorns posted Thu, 30 May 2002 10:46:00 GMT(5/30/2002)

    Post 1799 of 2234
    Joined 6/4/2000

    Hey JT, nice to see u still around

    I had to really laugh at what you said near the end:

    now can you imagine that you are sitting on the runway in a 747 at LAX and they annouce over the PA

    this is to inform you that in the cabin today is Leroy, Fred and Ralph they are all Untrained Volunteers who will be flying us overseas

    yes this is what it is like my friends

    How the structure of this organization has been formed was explained so well. I think it is a shame so few have actually given any thought to how it all actually works.
    it is not sad to think that a bunch of guys who hand out Cheese on Crackers at Walmart for a living are convinced to believe that they are qualified to handle such issues

    and when they call bethel for help and they are talking to some bro on the Service desk - in most cases they are talking to a guy who came to bethel at 19 worked in the laundry, cleaning or factory, was a good yes man, and moved up from the manual labor work at bethel to a desk job as a secretary and later got his own secretary and now he has 35 yrs of bethel service with or without a HS Diploma and now our Cheese Cracker bro is on the phone talking to our YES man on an issue this involved- with it's emotional , psycholgical and physicall ramifications on this person's life

    Path

    F chezza posted Thu, 30 May 2002 10:48:00 GMT(5/30/2002)

    Post 237 of 257
    Joined 2/21/2002

    Great post and so very true.

    F Angharad posted Thu, 30 May 2002 10:53:00 GMT(5/30/2002)

    Post 950 of 3479
    Joined 3/25/2000

    Great points JT
    Good to see you

    F LDH posted Fri, 31 May 2002 06:05:00 GMT(5/31/2002)

    Post 3338 of 7072
    Joined 12/18/2000

    ((((((((JT and Mrs JT)))))))))

    Catch my thread on JR Brown leaving the elders hanging out to dry...again.

    Lisa

    ChristianObserver posted Fri, 31 May 2002 08:44:00 GMT(5/31/2002)

    Post 52 of 254
    Joined 2/25/2002

    Hello :o)

    I posted this in response to another thread which stated that the first thing that the poster, as an elder, would have done in the Erica Rodriguez case would have been to have hugged her. It would be an ill-advised male elder who would hug the female victim of a male paedophile.

    *There are many possible ramifications resulting from child abuse - the untrained should *concernedly* point the victims in the direction of the *experts* imo. This would be how I would interpret the Biblical injunctions.

    I understand you wishing to give comfort to the victim by giving a hug. Unfortunately, in the society in which we find ourselves, and in the situation which you describe, this is not necessarily the most compassionate nor practical beginning.

    If the child was accompanied by a parent whom he/she trusted, I would suggest that this would be the right person to hug them at this point. I would be shedding tears of grief and compassion for the victim ......

    In this day and age and with the knowledge that we now possess, a process which requires a victim, especially a female victim, of a male abuser - and more especially a small child - to answer the questions of untrained and unqualified adult males - I consider totally insensitive, extremely foolish and inordinately crass.*

    I am wondering if there is anyone in any authority in the WTBTS who has any idea of the further pyschological damage and trauma which would be caused for the victim, particularly a small child, by being asked probing and intimate questions by a group of untrained male elders about criminal activities performed by another adult on that little person?

    Part of the gathering of information about paedophile activity from a small victim involves a *trusted* individual with whom the child *interacts* in a *non-threatening* environment through play using dolls or puppets, often being observed and recorded by qualified people via a 2 way mirror. The child is treated with kid gloves and would be unaware of the information gleaning process which might take place over an extended period of time.

    Is this facility and degree of expertise available within the WTBTS or any other organisation which attempts to deal with child abuse *in house*?

    If it is not, then those who have set the policies, those responsible for authorising the policies, those who have not changed the policies in view of current knowledge and expertise, those who have not heeded others who have pointed out problems and failures within the policies, those who are involved in implementing the policies, those who are involved in overseeing adherence to the policicies, those responsible for monitoring the policies, those who do not question the advisability of the policies are all guilty of failure to discharge their congregational responsibility to protect the children as set out in WTBTS literature.

    Paedophilia is not confined to the Roman Catholic Church, nor to the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. The 2 groups have been found wanting in their handling of abuse cases. It is time for them both to recognise the shortcomings in their systems. It is the failure of the 2 groups to address the problems within their organisations and their desire to keep the information under wraps which is now causing God's name to be drawn into disrepute. Had the problems been addressed immediately they became apparent, the enormous public reaction could have been minimised and further cases of child abuse minimised. Unfortunately, both the Roman Catholic Church and the WTBTS have dragged their feet in addressing the situations despite rumblings from inside that all is not well and that changes were required. Those in authority who did not heed those warnings and act to stop such terrible atrocities bear a heavy responsibility for that inactivity and obstruction to change.

    Paedophiles go where the children are most vulnerable or least protected. It is up to us as individuals to protect our children and have structures in place to ensure such protection.

    WT elders are not qualified individuals to handle child abuse and should not be required to do so. If a Jehovah's Witness parent were to approach an elder to report that one of their children had possibly broken the arm of another of their children, the injured child would not be sat down immediately and questioned about the minutiae of how the accident happened. The injured child would be sent off for the assistance of qualified medical personnel, surely....?

    Why does this not happen with child abuse vicitms?

    M COMF posted Fri, 31 May 2002 11:06:00 GMT(5/31/2002)

    Post 1730 of 2808
    Joined 3/16/2001

    Classic JT. Glad to see you posting again!

    "Can you believe there are still people suckering for this shit? Hehehe!"
    - J.R. Brown

    JT posted Fri, 31 May 2002 12:35:00 GMT(5/31/2002)

    Post 1860 of 4261
    Joined 1/2/2001

    CO says :

    "WT elders are not qualified individuals to handle child abuse"

    this is the bottom line no window washer has no busines playing investigator with an issue this:

    1. emotional
    2 psychological
    3. and physically damaging-
    as well as being a crime

    as mentioned if you break your hard you don't let a jackleg dr reset the bone

    elders are JACKS OF ALL TRADES (marriage, career advice, investment advice, medical advice, and legal advice) AND MASTERS OF NONES

    %%%%%%%%
    LDH says:

    Catch my thread on JR Brown leaving the elders hanging out to dry...again.

    Excellent point and so true that is why the wt has been for the last few years setting the elders up by distancing themselves from what they do - Notice these instructions to the elders:

    http://www.star.net/People/~docbob/df_forms.html

    REPOST---
    What Not To Put On Disfellowshipping
    Forms

    During the Kingdom Ministry Schools that were held during November and December of
    1994, elders in the United States were given information that was to be written into their
    "Pay Attention To Yourselves And To All The Flock" book.

    This information concerned the
    S77 and S79 forms that local judicial committees use to report disfellowshippings to the
    branch office in Brooklyn.

    The following was read to the elders, twice, for them to write
    word for word into their books.

    Six Expressions That Should Not Be Used on S77 and S79 Forms

    1. Anything alluding to or naming one of the Society's attorneys

    2. Any mention of the Legal Department

    3. Any comments referring to direction from the Society

    4. Any comments mentioning anyone other than the committee itself as a
    possible influence in the decision reached

    5. Any comments that might suggest to someone with a critical eye that the
    committee did not reach its decision on its own but, instead, somehow
    yielded to the influence of an outside party

    6. Any comments indicating that the elders mishandled the case or committed
    any error in the investigation or the judicial committee process.

    I will now take these points one at a time and pose some questions and make some
    comments about them.

    1. Anything alluding to or naming one of the Society's attorneys 2. Any
    mention of the Legal Department

    The first two points are closely related, so I will take them together. Normally, the Society's
    Legal Department would be consulted only under very unusual circumstances. There
    would not likely be any inclination for the judicial committee to mention either the Society's
    Legal Department or their attorneys by name on the S77 or S79 forms unless they had
    been consulted on that case. If the Legal Department had been consulted, then it would
    have had some effect on the conduct and possibly the outcome of the judicial hearing.
    That being so, why is the Society telling the elders on the judicial committee not to mention
    them if they had to be consulted?

    3. Any comments referring to direction from the Society

    Why are the elders told not to mention it when every aspect of the judicial process is
    conducted according to direction from the Society?

    Go to Watchtower Observer , press the button for "Pay Attention to Yourself and all the
    Flock" and look at Units 5a and 5b to see how precisely the Watchtower Society directs the
    elders in their conducting judicial matters. Having been an elder for many years, I can
    attest to the accuracy of what is presented there.

    This proscription against mentioning and direction from the Society, presumably includes
    not referring to any comments referring to direction from the Society not to mention
    direction from the Society. But I have to ask, why does the Society not want the judicial
    committee to mention this direction from the Society?

    4. Any comments mentioning anyone other than the committee itself as
    a possible influence in the decision reached

    Notice that there is nothing that says that the committee cannot be influenced by someone
    else when trying to come to a decision. The elders are just told not to mention it if there
    was any such influence. I would think that the most likely sources of outside influence
    would be elders who were not serving on the committee who might be related to, or be
    especially close friends with, the accused, or perhaps the circuit of district overseer.

    This leaves the way open for circuit or district overseers, who are directly appointed by the
    Society and thus are its direct representatives, to exercise influence in a judicial situation
    and never be called to task for it. At that point, the local elders are left with total
    responsibility for their decision.

    Why doesn't the Society admonish the elder not to allow anyone outside the committee to
    influence them rather than tell them not to report it if such influence was exercised?

    5. Any comments that might suggest to someone with a critical eye that
    the committee did not reach its decision on its own but, instead,
    somehow yielded to the influence of an outside party

    Who, with a critical eye, would have access to these forms? They are for internal use only.
    Even the local elders who were not on the judicial committee that handled the case in
    question are not supposed to see them. One possibility is that a friend within the
    congregation would somehow gain access to them and call the committee to task for
    yielding to an outside influence. Another possibility is that the Society is worried about
    these forms either being seized or subpoenaed.

    Again, the judicial committee members are not told to disallow any outside influence, but
    just not to put it on the report if it occurs.

    6. Any comments indicating that the elders mishandled the case or
    committed any error in the investigation or the judicial committee
    process.

    Is this a problem? Does the Society receive disfellowshipping forms that say "We
    disfellowshipped this person, despite the fact that we mishandled his case."?
    ###################

    Pathofthorns SAYS:

    "How the structure of this organization has been formed was explained so well. I think it is a shame so few have actually given any thought to how it all actually works."

    ###

    Path:

    The above statement is truly the bottom line and we this in the comments of so many jw online as well as the folks who have spoken with their family they have no idea of how the SYSTEM WORKS.
    #######

    Tanalyst JT you got that right!

    The head honcho at Service Dept. used to be a painter at Bethel;Campbell is his name
    ########

    Yes his name is Merton Campbel he was my New Boy instructor- dyed in the wool SOCIETY MAN TO THE BONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #######################

    Imbue:: JTsays:

    The child should be interrogated by a TRAINED EXPERIENCED person FIRST, social worker or police, who are trained

    Interrogated is a strong word for this maybe assessed by a trained psychologist would be more accurate.

    ### actually i was quoting someone else above who used the term "INERROGATED" AND I Agree it is a little to strong as well

    Imbue goes on to say:

    "In my area many elders are college educated. Some are professors, psychologists, accountants, lawyers and too many programmers to mention. However NONE of them are trained for the special situation of child molestation. An elders lack of education, special training and experience is the issue."

    ## the above statement is the bottom line ---they are at that JACK OF ALL TRADES STUFF AGAIN when they get into child molestation
    excellent post

    #############
    Lisa
    Angharad
    chezza
    TR
    concerned mama
    waiting
    Dutchie
    Nathan Natas
    Black Man
    ##
    TO ALL OF YOU ABOVE IT IS GOOD TO BE BACK

    we are out of school for the summer

    F waiting posted Sun, 02 Jun 2002 02:13:00 GMT(6/2/2002)

    Post 5254 of 6501
    Joined 5/13/2000

    Hey JT,

    Well, we sure have missed y'all! Betcha you and the mrs. aced your classes, eh? Knew y'all would. Enjoy your summer!

    Quote: 4. Any comments mentioning anyone other than the committee itself as a possible influence in the decision reached.

    Notice that there is nothing that says that the committee cannot be influenced by someone else when trying to come to a decision. The elders are just told not to mention it if there
    was any such influence. I would think that the most likely sources of outside influence would be elders who were not serving on the committee who might be related to, or be especially close friends with, the accused, or perhaps the circuit of district overseer.

    This leaves the way open for circuit or district overseers, who are directly appointed by the Society and thus are its direct representatives, to exercise influence in a judicial situation
    and never be called to task for it. At that point, the local elders are left with total responsibility for their decision.

    Why doesn't the Society admonish the elder not to allow anyone outside the committee to influence them rather than tell them not to report it if such influence was exercised?

    .....Another possibility is that the Society is worried about
    these forms either being seized or subpoenaed.

    This was such a good breakdown of elder instructions on how not to let the WTBTS get caught. All in the espionage atmosphere of the police hunting True Christians down during the Great Tribulation. Man......we bought it hook, line & sinker - except for the Society Men who knew the reality.....just PR protection.

    waiting

    Farkel posted Sun, 02 Jun 2002 04:39:00 GMT(6/2/2002)

    Post 2380 of 11743
    Joined 3/14/2001

    : now can you imagine that you are sitting on the runway in a 747 at LAX and they annouce over the PA

    : this is to inform you that in the cabin today is Leroy, Fred and Ralph they are all Untrained Volunteers who will be flying us overseas

    Farkel is ROFLHAO!

    Great piece, JT.

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