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Watch Tower Society Facing Criminal Charges and Indictment in Australia

    Roski posted Wed, 06 Apr 2011 23:34:00 GMT(4/6/2011)

    Post 187 of 241
    Joined 9/23/2002

    I have heard of some elders being "appointed" as the one to look after "orphans and widows" etc. I would assume this is work relevant to 'pastoral care' by other church ministers. Not sure about having a brother/sister come to the house for a bible study though - guess this could be termed a private arrangement. From my knowledge, this is where a lot of the trouble happened/s. Perhaps this is in some way connected to the book study being discontinued - just a guess.

    kjw53 posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 00:07:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 35 of 140
    Joined 3/31/2011

    Listener-- The facts are these-- The Jw,s have no sunday schools or the such-- The words you read about that is from an apostate who is trying to get them in court, but it has allready been thrown out once-check your facts-there isnt one credible source behind those words written that you all presume are true.

    Aussie Oz posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 00:39:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 1603 of 3755
    Joined 11/12/2009

    @kjw53

    No, we don't all presume that what Steven Unthank says is true.

    There are parts of his submission (have you read all 644 odd pages?) that we can not verify, things and events that only he was privy to. That information we can't take as 'gospel' just because he is againts the WT.

    Much of it is plausable because of the documented history of child abuse that exists globally among JWs. But a claim of does not make true, any more than a claim of makes for untrue.

    That is for a Judge to decide at the end of the day.

    Nobody has to agree with the sources used other than Steven and a Judge either.

    The act clearly states:

    9 What is child-related work?

    (1) For the purposes of this Act,

    child-related work

    (ii) as a minister of religion or as part of the

    duties of a religious vocation;

    That the JWs operate no schools is totally irrelivant to the FACT that they do call themselves ORDAINED MINISTERS and do like to hide behind that title when it suits them.

    And for that fact alone, the WT IS guilty of criminal charges by Victorian law.

    Whether the Victorian legal system deems that will be prosecutable or not is up to them.

    oz

    dont try to pull the 'he's a nasty apostate full of lies' card here... it does not work!

    AndersonsInfo posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 05:27:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 649 of 1155
    Joined 4/22/2005

    I went to Steven Unthank's blog, www.jwnews.net, a few minutes ago and learned quite a bit more about his cause. Among other things, I learned that there is no fee to get a back-ground check for religious volunteers. The WWC website said there was a fee for applicants, but when I read the information on that website a few days ago, I didn't see that the fee didn't apply to religions.

    It was interesting to read on Mr. Unthank's blog his feelings about what he read on this thread about his criminal charges against Watch Tower. I took the following information that he posted on April 6th from his blog:

    Thank you to everyone that has provided feedback and constructive (and at times "destructive") criticism. This has really helped me to sort through what I should and should not publish, or link to, on this webpage. Again, I really sincerely thank you. :) You are welcome at my place for steak and beers. I have often been asked "who are you"? Honestly, I do not know how to properly answer this. My life has been too complex, too complicated, too horrific. Despite this...I love my God, I love my family, I love my religion, I love my country, and I love my Bible. I personally believe that "by every kind of toil there comes to be an advantage". The advantage may not be mine, but I hope it will be yours. My mother, a Presbyterian, recently told me: "You're my son and I love you. You are what the Watch Tower Society forced and made you to be, just to survive, just to defend yourself and our family. What they did to you was wrong. What they did to your brother was wrong. What they did to our family was wrong. What they are still doing to us and to all the children is wrong. If they were really from God then they would not have done this. They should be held accountable for everything." Mum is right. Mothers are always right. In February 2007, Watch Tower Society lawyer, Elder Ivan E. Novian, stood up on the podium inside the Skye church of Jehovah's Witnesses and publicly announced: "If anyone goes up against [the Watch Tower Society] with a view to seeking justice, even if you have actually been wronged, then you can expect to be wiped out and left penniless." My family was present in the audience. Our church elders informed us that the statement was directed at our family. Why? We were wronged. We were seeking justice. I am now penniless...but I have not been wiped out. What the Watch Tower Society did to my family is discussed in pages 378 to 424 of the Brief of Evidence document [see download link below]. If they were and are willing to do this to my family then they are also willing do this to you and your family. If you are interested in my childhood, then this is discussed on pages 349 to 361. To read these sets of pages is to understand who I am and why I am scarred and scared. - Steven Unthank (6 April 2011)

    etna posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 08:13:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 202 of 319
    Joined 7/23/2009

    Thank you Barbara for all you and Joe do. I'm in Austarlia and will be watching carefully.

    Etna

    Curtains posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 08:56:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 506 of 720
    Joined 10/12/2010

    Hi steven

    you need to address "child related work" and how Jehovahs witnesses have instituted formal arrangements for their minsters to engage in child related work. The fact that all jehovahs witnesses are defined as ministers clouds this issue and can work against you. It is perhaps more important to focus on the heiarchical arrangment that JWs have in place - ie that elders, overseers and ministerial servants fulfill the definition of how the term "Minister" is perceived in other religions.

    And then I think it is important to define how the WTS has formal arrangements in place in which ministers are required to come into contact with children. Imo the door to door work is a formal arrangment instituted by the WTS. This is not something that a witness engages in informally and privately. The door to door work is a formal requirement of all baptized members including children and teenagers. There are strict rules that the door to door activity be done in two's so you have an adult working with a child very often. If parents are sick or unable to go out in the ministry their baptized children are expected to go out on their own and work with another adult. Baptized male teens formally lead groups in the ministry.

    perhaps you have already worked out a definition of WTS formal arrangements for the ministry so I apologise if I am going over stuff you have already resolved.

    Aussie Oz posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:53:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 1604 of 3755
    Joined 11/12/2009

    Hello Steven Unthank

    If you are reading this forum...as Barbara indicated...

    Is there a link or a record somehow of the comment:

    In February 2007, Watch Tower Society lawyer, Elder Ivan E. Novian, stood up on the podium inside the Skye church of Jehovah's Witnesses and publicly announced: "If anyone goes up against [the Watch Tower Society] with a view to seeking justice, even if you have actually been wronged, then you can expect to be wiped out and left penniless."

    That can be verified, documented fact that even the WT cannot dispute it ever said?

    Thankyou ( i would expect that you may wish to pass information on via a 3rd party to protect your online identity)

    oz

    zen19 posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 10:47:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 35 of 1
    Joined 1/17/2010

    Good job on this - I suggest other aussies will send emails and letters asking why this law is not being enforced on a group with know peado tendancies.

    finallysomepride posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:18:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 1145 of 2871
    Joined 7/22/2009

    book marked

    Listener posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:23:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 432 of 1447
    Joined 9/26/2010
    KJW53 said Listener-- The facts are these-- The Jw,s have no sunday schools or the such-- The words you read about that is from an apostate who is trying to get them in court, but it has allready been thrown out once-check your facts-there isnt one credible source behind those words written that you all presume are true.

    The only fact that I based my question on was that the JWs had not applied for WWC certificates. Although there may be individuals who have done so just to protect themselves from legal action for non-compliance (and we now know that even the elders are considered to be acting independantly).

    What I asked you was why the JWs had not met their legal obligation to obtain WWC certificates as you made the claim that they are true ministers appointed by God.

    In the past I have seen similar reactions from JWs when they believe they are defending something - that is, they will try to shoot the messanger as being wacko or a liar. What is shameful is that it is often a person's dealings with the JWs that lead some to behave in an irrational or overly emotional way and there is no compassion, no understanding, no attempt at reconcilling, no assistance in providing emotional help, no concern for their welfare but quite the opposite - shunning and avoidance.

    What sometimes occurs is the attacking of the messanger rather than a motivation to correct a wrongdoing.

    MeanMrMustard posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:30:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 138 of 990
    Joined 9/9/2010

    @AndersonInfo:

    You wrote:

    I went to Steven Unthank's blog, www.jwnews.net, a few minutes ago and learned quite a bit more about his cause. Among other things, I learned that there is no fee to get a back-ground check for religious volunteers. The WWC website said there was a fee for applicants, but when I read the information on that website a few days ago, I didn't see that the fee didn't apply to religions.

    Wow, so that changes some things. Serveral posters (including me) have wondered what the motivation might be for not complying with the law. If the above statement is true, then its NOT money. It's not a political issue either (since getting one of these licenses is no different than licensing yourself to drive a car). So I am really wondering if the WTS knows they have a substantial number of active, serving elders in Austrailia who have some history in child molestation. Or even a good number of former elders, but still active congregation members that have child molestation issues in the past...

    MeanMrMustard

    cofty posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 22:18:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 1010 of 13019
    Joined 12/19/2009

    Thank you for the information, I would be really interested to know whether they may face a similar situation in the UK.

    Since last year it is a criminal offence to employ somebody - including doing unpaid voluntary work - who work with children and vulnerable adults frequently or intensively until they have registered with a new agency known as the Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA).

    An elder who pays a shepherding visit to an elderly witness or regularly drives them to meetings etc may be breaking the law unless they are registered. Their employers are also criminally liable to prosecution.

    As a sports coach this has significant implications for what I do and my responsibiliites regarding employing new coaching staff. I am certain the congregations in the UK are flouting the law

    dgp posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 22:30:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 1902 of 2764
    Joined 7/8/2009

    I say, let's wait and see. I cannot see how it would be bad for the Watchtower to comply with that requirement. The purpose is to protect children. Who disagrees with that idea? If anyone disagrees, why?

    kjw53 posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 23:47:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 39 of 140
    Joined 3/31/2011

    Aussie-oz--- Pedophiles enter every religion on the earth, its an easy prey for people like that-they can pretend all they want how they want to serve God. But the fact remains that all of you are targeting the JW,s when they exist in every religion. Goes to show my words are truth--Mortal man cannot read anothers true heart- nor has he ever seen the book of life-thus mortal man cannot tell another that he is saved. Yet in every trinity religion on the earth the teachers are elevating themselves into Gods position by telling all that they are saved. Woe to those doing that. now back to topic--from what i have read on this matter-it has allready entered court once and was thrown out.

    OUTLAW posted Thu, 07 Apr 2011 23:59:00 GMT(4/7/2011)

    Post 19787 of 23865
    Joined 10/11/2001
    But the fact remains that all of you are targeting the JW,s when they exist in every religion......Kjw53

    Why would you care?..Your not a JW..Many here are..

    Your sticking your nose in something,that does not concern you..

    http://anneliadolfsson.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/sniffing-dog-butt-779913.jpg

    ............................... ...OUTLAW

    M james_woods posted Fri, 08 Apr 2011 00:01:00 GMT(4/8/2011)

    Post 4332 of 12291
    Joined 10/26/2005

    We are outlaws and it does not concern us the way it is done?

    Listener posted Fri, 08 Apr 2011 02:58:00 GMT(4/8/2011)

    Post 434 of 1447
    Joined 9/26/2010

    I have read many pages of Steven's submission and particularly about his personal situation and how the org has treated him and his family. Really shocking stuff that got way out of hand. The burdens that have been placed on him and his family and others connected are great. I can understand why he has written the way he has. IMHO it's not so much about any legal action but the theocratic rights and wrongs. When all is said and done and issues go through man's courts the most important thing is not the outcomes and the corrections afforded by laws because they are hindered by man's very own imperfections. Whether a case is won or lost is only shortlived and in the overall scheme of God's will being done it is that which is the most important issue. We cannot expect complete justice when the courts are run by men and belong to men, they are not from God but a Christian Society has the responsbility to act in accordance with the word of God and this means in all their dealings.

    What will live after this case is resolved, one way or another, is Steven's comments against the Society. He has used this submission (which is a man made opportunity for him to do so) to highlight to the Society what their responsibilities are, even though he has done this by using man made laws he is highlighting their responsibilties from God's standpoint. He does this by introducing biblical and spiritual values. It reads more like a submission written for the benefit and to the Society rather than a court. In other words, he has not seperated the two issues - breaking of man's law and the breaking of God's laws.

    The far greater error is going against the will of God and not functioning under his guidance and this is well brought out in the submission. If only the Society has listening ears and the humility to learn and adjust.

    It is hardly likely that any man would fight so hard if there was not a lot of truth in what was being told. The submission hardly reads as if it was done in retaliation but rather in a fight for justice and to explain to the Society how wrong they have been in dealing with matters.

    These pleading words that were written in the submission were just beautiful

    “…Please, brothers, do not deny us justice and happiness and happiness and

    justice. May the happy and just Jehovah bless you brothers according to the

    spirit you show and may you let justice roll forth and live with Jehovah’s day in

    mind.

    D4.167

    “Yours faithfully,

    D4.168

    “[signed] Brother David Unthank”

    Aussie Oz posted Fri, 08 Apr 2011 03:14:00 GMT(4/8/2011)

    Post 1610 of 3755
    Joined 11/12/2009

    kjw53:

    ''Aussie-oz--- Pedophiles enter every religion on the earth, its an easy prey for people like that-they can pretend all they want how they want to serve God.

    But the fact remains that all of you are targeting the JW,s when they exist in every religion.

    Yes that is true, but we are talking about Victoria in Australia where the WT society appears to be the ONLY religion refusing to comply with state law that does include them.

    Of course we are targeting JWs.

    what do you think this board is about? Its not about ex mormons or baptists or something is it?

    Of course we ex JWs have bias against the religion that we came from.

    You are still trying to play the 'you are all nasty apostates' card. That has NOTHING to do with what Mr Unthank is doing. He at base line is trying to get the government of victoria to enforce its own law on a non complying religion that even you admit must contain some child abusers. ''they exist in every religion''.

    oz

    M flipper posted Fri, 08 Apr 2011 03:28:00 GMT(4/8/2011)

    Post 11944 of 17191
    Joined 3/7/2007

    Thanks Barbara & Joe for this thread and all the work you do in exposing injustices inside the WT society and Jehovah's Witnesses . Keep up the good work. Ignore any naysayers- they are uninformed idiots. Peace out, Mr. Flipper

    sizemik posted Fri, 08 Apr 2011 03:31:00 GMT(4/8/2011)

    Post 89 of 5313
    Joined 3/21/2011

    Second that Mr Flipper . . . at the end of the day this is all about the children . . . god knows we've all seen enough lives destroyed in this way

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