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Pentecost 33CE What really happened.

    biblexaminer posted Tue, 29 May 2001 23:20:00 GMT(5/29/2001)

    Post 22 of 443
    Joined 4/3/2001

    Foreword

    Pentecost 33 C.E. From the viewpoint of a true Christian, a wonderful time to have been alive and present at Jerusalem. To have been there to see the Christ of God do the Father's works by means of the Spirit. What actually took place during those days is of interest to any individual who seeks Jehovah out of a pure heart. Much discussion has been based on Luke's words about these events. It would be good to examine these events as well as the commentary of those who have expressed their thoughts regarding Jesus ascension and the days that followed.

    Chapters one and two of Acts, as well as other equally inspired Scripture, hold the key to understanding these events clearly. The events of those days cannot be understood in more ways than one, for they happened only once, and Jehovah had them recorded in such a way so as to preserve the accuracy and integrity of these records. This can be said of all Scripture, but this letter is written particularly in discussion of the first two chapters of Acts.
    Millions around the world read commentary presented by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and this letter will address this commentary, as it is true that over the years many sincere seekers of Jehovah have used these publications to both express and to understand God's Word. These commentaries are not however inspired and it is necessary to be "carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things (are) so."

    This letter is an attempt to approach these events and their associated commentary openly, honestly and humbly. It is of no benefit to any student of the Bible if one were to form an opinion and then push that opinion on others as if it were 'gospel'. Jesus set the example. He did not tell who he himself was, but instead he asked questions. At Mark 8:29,30 ... he put the question to them: "YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?" In answer Peter said to him: "You are the Christ." Jesus allowed the Spirit to do it's work, allowing his listeners to answer the question for themselves. If people are honest and humble, approaching God out of a pure heart, they will come to the right conclusions. This is God's way.

    The official position of TheWatchtower is that there were the twelve (Apostles) and about 120 believers present in an upper room in Jerusalem at Pentecost on Sivan 6 of the year 33 of our common era, upon whom the Holy Spirit fell so as to cause them to speak in different languages. (see Insight on the Scriptures vol.2 page 46)
    When a sincere Bible student reads these comments, and also reads the inspired Scriptures, questions automatically begin to generate. A well trained, Bible educated, reasoning mind begins to ask questions, since Romans 12:1 links "power of reason" to our "sacred service". What, when, where, whom and why? If these things really happened, there is a date, a place, a time, persons present, and a reason it all happened.
    These questions deserve answers.

    1) On what day does Bible chronology put the Apostles in the upper room? (Acts1:12,13)
    2) How many were in the upper room by name? (Acts 1:13,14)
    3) How large were "upper chamber(s)" in Jewish homes at the time of Pentecost 33 C.E.? (Acts 2:5,6)
    4) How many were present, according to the Bible, at the events mentioned in the Bible?
    Event 1-(Acts 1:4-11) Iyar 25
    Event 2-(Acts 1:12-14) Iyar 25
    Event 3-(Acts 1:15-26) Iyar 26...Sivan 5
    Event 4-(Acts 2:1-41) Sivan 6
    5) Where does the Bible say the Apostles were "on that day"?
    (Luke 24:52,53; Acts 2:46)
    6) Why did the Holy Spirit discriminate, only to "Galileans", no others? (Acts 2:7)
    7) How did over 120, plus the Apostles fit into such a tiny room?"
    8) How could a 1st century Jewish home's roof structurally support 9 tons of humans.
    9) How did "the multitude" fit into that "upper chamber" so that "three thousand" could hear 120 people speaking in tongues and hear Peter's discourse so as to repent and be baptized?
    10) Where did they baptize "three thousand" in Jerusalem which had no water, but did have extreme religious persecution?

    To deny these questions would be to sacrifice "YOUR power of reason" which goes hand in hand with your "sacred service" to God. If The Watchtower comments mentioned above (Insight on the Scriptures vol.2 p46) are the truth, then answering these questions will only serve to strengthen the argument. If they are incorrect, sincere Christians would want to know would they not?
    Do you as the reader have any qualms so far? Is there anything mentioned to this point that you feel is incorrect reasoning? If not, then proceed. If , however, you feel that there is something unreasonable, then it is pointless to go on. It would also be good at this point to read over the account of Acts chapters 1 and 2, and research the commentary of the Watchtower publications throughout the years.

    We begin by turning to God's word at Acts 1:1-5. Here Luke tells us that Jesus was indeed resurrected and gave "many positive proofs....throughout forty days". Luke goes on to tell of Jesus orders to "not withdraw from Jerusalem". Jesus did this "until the day that he was taken up...to the apostles whom he chose." This would have taken place between his resurrection on Nisan 16 and his ascension on Iyar 25. (lunar calendar)
    At Acts 1:6-11 the events of Iyar 25, ten days before Pentecost-forty days after Nisan 16, are recorded for us. In verses 6-8, the eleven ask questions of Jesus and Jesus gives them satisfactory answers, as well he gives further instructions. Verse 9 tells of Jesus ascent, 10,11 is a record of the angels presence and discussion.
    We come now to verses 12 to 14. Verse 12 plainly says that "Then they returned to Jerusalem from ....the Mount of Olives" which was about one half mile from Jerusalem, about a fifteen minute walk.[FTN: Ac1F12a According to rabbinical sources based on Jos 3:4, this was about 2,000 cubits (890 m; 2,920 ft).] They must have lingered for a little while because the angels asked "Men ....why do you stand looking into the sky." Some encouragement perhaps to get on with what they had been instructed to do. In any case, there is no evidence found anywhere to the effect that they continued to stay on the Mount of Olives past that day ....Iyar 25, the day of ascension.

    We come now to verse 13 and 14 and it would be good to read them again.
    Ac1:13
    13 So, when they had entered, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were staying, Peter as well as John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus and Simon the zealous one, and Judas [the son] of James. 14 With one accord all these were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

    The Watchtower of January 15, 1953 comments

    After Jesus' death and resurrection, however, at least some of his uterine brothers (having the same mother but a different father) did exercise faith in him, for we read that, pending Pentecost, the eleven apostles with one accord "were persisting in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers".-Acts 1:13, 14, NW.

    What does the context of Scripture here tells us? Verse 12 clearly takes place on Iyar 25, ten days "pending Pentecost". Is there any reason to try to separate verse 12 from verses 13 and 14? In other words, does the Bible in any way indicate that the eleven were in the "upper chamber" "persisting in prayer" on any other day than Iyar 25. Luke writes that after Jesus ascent they went home, to Jerusalem "into the upper chamber, where they were staying". The Watchtower quoted above clearly puts the "upper chamber" event on Iyar 25. Is it true?
    Volume 2 of Insight on the Scriptures, on page 46 states ....
    **During the apostolic period. Following his resurrection, Jesus gave orders to his disciples not to leave Jerusalem at that time. (Lu 24:49; Ac 1:4) This was to be the starting point for preaching repentance for forgiveness of sins on the basis of Christ's name. (Lu 24:46-48) Ten days after his ascension to heaven, the disciples, gathered together in an upper room, received the anointing by holy spirit. (Ac 1:13, 14; 2:1-4)

    The Insight on the Scriptures just quoted site verse 13 and 14, the upper room event, as taking place on Sivan 6, the day of Pentecost, "Ten days after his ascension". The Watchtower of January 15, 1953 said "pending Pentecost". Needless to say, both commentaries above cannot be correct, for it only happened the once. The Watchtower comments of late would suggest that we accept the latest interpretation as true. Was the original then true for a while until something more true came, or was the original idea just plain wrong? ...Or is the latest idea wrong? One thing that we can be sure of as Christians is this, the Bible was always right and continues so.
    We ask then the question, what Scriptural backing is there to extract from Acts 1, these verses relating to the "upper chamber", and insert them into Acts 2, the events of Pentecost? The comments in Insight on the Scriptures would suggest that these verses are not chronological, or in order with respect to time.
    The questions begin to flow. If the twelve required a "large upper room" for the Passover celebration(Luke 22:12), how large a room was required to accommodate the 120 plus the eleven and Mary and some women? A room more than ten times the size of the "large upper room" used at Passover no doubt. How large were the Jewish homes of those days so as to have such a large "upper chamber"? And again, how many people needed to be accommodated? Verse 5 and 6 of chapter 2 says "the multitude came together" of "reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven." Now, indeed, how many needed to be accommodated? Verse 41 says that "on that day about three thousand souls were added." Pretty cramped! How many Jewish homes could accommodate them? Even if you piled them one on top of the other "on that day", wall to wall and up to the rafters could it be possible for them all to fit? How much did all those people weigh? Were they really in an upper room? Where does the Inspired records of these events place the Apostles "on that day"?
    Volume 1 of Insight on the Scriptures on page 129 discusses verses 15-22 ....
    **Who replaced Judas Iscariot as a twelfth apostle?
    Because of the defection of Judas Iscariot, who died unfaithful, there were only 11 apostles remaining, and during the 40 days from Jesus' resurrection until his ascension to heaven he made no appointment of a replacement. Sometime during the ten days between Jesus' ascension and the day of Pentecost it was viewed as necessary that another be selected to fill the vacancy left by Judas, not simply on the basis of his death but, rather, on the basis of his wicked defection, as the Scriptures quoted by Peter indicate. (Ac 1:15-22; Ps 69:25; 109:8; compare Re 3:11.)
    This information places the events of the choosing of a replacement for Judas (verses 15-26) as being on or between Iyar 26 and Sivan 5, "pending Pentecost". This is logical. We arrive then back at verses 13 and 14. Why extract these verses, placing the Apostles in the "upper chamber" on the day of Pentecost? No foundation is offered by The Watchtower for this action. If some could be found, it could be considered. How should we understand it? Is there a way to know for sure if the Apostles were in the "upper chamber" at Pentecost, or if it is as the Scriptures teach, that the Apostles were in the upper chamber ten days before Pentecost. And if they were not in the "upper chamber" at Pentecost, where were they? Is there a way to prove that verse 13 and 14 belong right where Luke put them? Yes.
    At Pentecost, how many Apostles were there? Twelve, you'll agree, for the appointment of Matthias took place days earlier. How many Apostles were there at the ascension of the Christ? Eleven and we still agree. How many Apostles are recorded as being, by name, in the upper chamber? Read it carefully and count them one by one.
    Eleven.

    Thus, the events of the "upper chamber" took place exactly where Luke put them, on Iyar 25, ten days before Pentecost, before the appointment of Mattias. The Scriptures then are chronological, the numbers cannot lie. The events went as follows...

    1) Nisan 14; Jesus is killed

    2) Nisan 16; Jesus is resurrected

    3) Nisan 16-Iyar 25; forty days of Jesus proofs and instructions

    4) Iyar 25; Jesus instructions, ascension. The eleven return to Jerusalem to the "upper chamber" (home) to pray.

    5) Iyar 26-Sivan 5; choice of replacement to bring number of Apostles to twelve

    6) Sivan 6; Pentecost, outpouring of the Spirit.

    From this careful analysis we see that the Apostles were not in the "upper chamber" on Sivan 6 (Pentecost), although this is where they were staying, the place they called home while in Jerusalem and would have returned there at night to sleep and most probably to take meals.(Acts 2:46b) They were human. They had to sleep and eat did they not?
    We must also add to the Biblical proof, that physical reality of space and material fact could not have allowed for it. The amount of space required for 120 people, ignoring the "multitude" of thousands of witnesses, is such that 120 people would require as much room as a Kingdom Hall provides. Yet, they had only as much room as a large second school or library such as is customary at a Kingdom Hall. Can you imagine the full attendance of a Public Meeting, being forced into a second school? Then there is the fact of mass. These people, at average, weighed about 150lbs each. 150lbs multiplied by 120 people is 18000lbs or about 9 tons. To get perspective, that is about the equivalent of five average automobiles. Can you imagine your home with five automobiles, one on top of the other on the roof? What do you think would happen. These homes were simple and small, they would have collapsed under the weight!

    If then they were not in the upper room, where were they? We need not speculate for two reasons. One, to suggest speculation gets you nowhere. Two, the Bible gives us enough information without speculation.
    First, Acts 2:1 and 2 reads...
    Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, 2 and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting.

    Here we are told that they were in a house. Which house? Acts 2:2 says "a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, ... filled the whole house in which they were sitting." The "noise" filled the "whole house". This is a significant detail.

    Verse 6 says... "So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together...". The Scriptures do not say that the disciples went looking for a multitude. The Bible clearly makes the point that a large "multitude" of Jews were drawn to the "noise" where the Spirit was causing the speaking of "tongues". How many houses were capable of supporting a multitude? A house that would have been large and so the term "whole house" would give meaning. How was this house so easily located by the multitude as well as the mockers?

    The Scriptures answer all these questions. Let us look at the words of Jesus quoting Jehovah..."And he said to them: "It is written, 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' ."Mt21:13
    The Apostles were not in just any house, they were in the House, that is to say "the temple". Jesus himself said ... "Day after day I was with YOU in the temple teaching, and ..." Mark 14:49

    Is this speculation? The Scriptures cannot lie and proof can be found. Open your Bible to some other words penned by Luke at Luke 24:51-53
    51 As he was blessing them he was parted from them and began to be borne up to heaven. 52 And they did obeisance to him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they were continually in the temple blessing God.

    This Scripture is speaking of the Ascension and it clearly says that from that time foreward, from Iyar 25 to, and including Pentecost on Sivan 6, they were in the Temple, the place Jehovah refers to as His "house".

    The multitude, then, came together at the House, where all of them as Jews ought to have been. The Apostles, the multitude, the mockers, the three thousand, and days earlier, the 120. And so the "noise"... "filled the whole house in which they were sitting.", Where else would Jehovah pour out His Spirit so as to give validity to the deeds done on that day, Pentecost 33 C.E, but in His own House! Acts 2:46a also establishes this fact. They were "in constant attendance at the temple"

    We therefore establish that "they" were not in any upper room at Pentecost because the events including the 120, the appointment of Mattias, took place days earlier. The upper room event was one and one half weeks before Pentecost. They would all not have physically fit into such tiny upper rooms. They were far too heavy as a group for the roof chamber to support, and the inspired records put them squarely in the Temple at Pentecost. The entire scenario, printed in The Watchtower, with the 120 in an upper room is completely false.

    To understand Scripture, one must not let ideas of this world skew ones perception. Bible writers always referred to buildings as "houses", even large ones. Read the account at Jg16:27
    (Incidentally, the house was full of men and women and all the Philistine axis lords were there; and upon the roof there were about three thousand men and women who were looking on while Samson offered some amusement.)
    29 With that Samson braced himself against the two middle pillars upon which the house was firmly established, and got a grasp on them, one with his right and the other with his left hand.

    This brings us to the next point. Who is being described by the word "they" at Acts 2:1? It is clear that there is no co-relation between the supposed 120 disciples because this is a different day. Pentecost was on Sivan 6 and the events including the 120 were past. Websters dictionary tells us that "they" means "the ones mentioned". The way the word "they" and it's counterparts in other languages are used is to refer to the last "people" mentioned in context. Therefore, we refer to the context of Scripture to determine the last mentioned "people". The verse prior to Acts 2:1 is verse 26 of Acts 1 (note: there are no numbers or divisions in the original writings) .

    26 So they cast lots over them, and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was reckoned along with the eleven apostles.

    So the "they" means the "eleven apostles" and "Matthias" just spoken of by Luke. In other words, the twelve. The "twelve" were the only ones to receive the "tongues as if of fire". Acts 2:43 confirms this.
    43 Indeed, fear began to fall upon every soul, and many portents and signs began to occur through the apostles.

    Is this not only fitting, for Jesus promised his apostles at the Mount of Olives, that "they"... "would receive power when the holy spirit arrives". What is the title of this book? Is it 'Acts of the one hundered and twenty'? Is it 'Acts of the Multitude'?? Or is it "Acts of the Apostles"? We need more proof, and there is more.
    Ac2:7
    7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: "See here, all these who are speaking are Galileans, are they not?

    The Festival of Pentecost. There were people attending from "every nation of those under heaven", but the only ones speaking in tongues were Galileans? (Acts 2:7b)Was the Spirit discriminating, only giving "power" to Galileans? That would not make any sense. If , however, we look at Acts 1:11 we can understand what was really happening.

    11 and they said: "Men of Galilee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU [the Eleven] into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky."

    The apostles were all from Galilee, except for Judas who was already dead. Tongues "sat on each one of them" the Twelve, giving divine approval of the choice made days earlier of Matthias. This was only fitting, was it not? It only makes sense then that as proved earlier, only the Apostles received "power" "on that day". This ties in nicely with verses 12-15 of chapter 2, read them.

    After all, the Apostles were Jews and it was the festival of Pentecost. Where else would they, as Jews, have gone. Does it make sense to say that the Apostles would invite about 120 disciples back to their little chamber to hang around for ten days till something happened, Jews who belonged in the Temple? And at the onset of summers heat, ... upstairs? One hunderd and twenty people scrunched into a little cubby hole, their weight causing the tiny frail structure underneath them to crumble. This is nonsense.

    Jesus instructions were clear. He said "Do not withdraw from Jerusalem...",Why? Simply put, the House of Jehovah was not fully abandoned till 70 CE. Where was Jesus when the voice was heard from heaven the second time? At the Temple. Jesus wanted them to be at the Temple, his Father's HOUSE, where he himself was daily! There Jehovah's Spirit would publicly appoint the Twelve for the work ahead. Publicly with thousands present to see it with their own eyes! And thousands were baptized as a result. Jesus made clear also that a "prophet" could not be destroyed anywhere except there where the Temple was.

    Where indeed were three thousand new Christians publicly baptized in a dry city with haters of Christians all around. The Jordan was too far. The pool at Siloam was too small. Only with the archeological discovery in 1976 of the Mikva'ot bathing pools at the Temple beneath Solomon's portico, could there be a possible explanation. But this puts them back in the Temple where the Holy Scripture says they were in contradiction to the Watchtower Society's doctrine.

    It is acknowledged that you may read all these things, and still hold the same opinion, even though there is not one shred of evidence to support the `120 in the upper chamber' idea. However, I call you, as one who professes to follow Christ, to answer the questions raised. (1 Peter 3:15)
    If, you may ask, the discussion found in The Watchtower 's publications is in error, where did it come from? The answer is simple. The Watchtower merely brought on board an existing idea found outside. The published idea was arrived at by some individuals who did so poor a study of these events that they did not even discern that there was a time period of 10 days over which all things took place. These individuals looked at Acts 2:1 where it says that "they were all together at the same place" and assumed that the this meant the "same place" that was mentioned in Acts chapter 1:13, the "upper chamber", not realizing that that event was one and a half weeks earlier. Also they took the "they" in Acts 2:1 to represent the approximately 120 individuals, not realizing that that event took place days earlier also. It is of note that The Watchtower accepted this '120 in the upper room' idea recently. If one were to look, for instance, at the publication All Scripture is Inspired and Beneficial published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, one would see that this teaching is not there. This publication is older and even the newer revised edition does not contain it. The revised edition only has an asterisk to take one to the footnote which makes reference to the publication already mentioned at the outset, Insight on the Scriptures. It is good to note that the '120 upper room' teaching is new, but not to Pentecostal religionists who have used it for years.

    Conclusion

    The writers of this letter are fully aware that the presently published position of these events found at Acts chapters one and two are what is used to support the position of those who write the articles in The Watchtower, as ones having divinely constituted authority. In other words, The Watchtower refers to these events to prove that there was a small minority of 120 individuals who received power, a group or `class' that they feel they are part of.
    It can be seen from the Scriptures however, that this is an impossibility. The Watchtower's interpretation of these events could not have happened. Possibly, future writings of The Watchtower may contain the corrected and truthful outlay of these events, but one should not count on it. An admission of this sort would not be in keeping with tradition, and it would also damage The Watchtower's image as a "channel" from God. Should the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society become aware of these facts, in keeping with their accepted way of handling matters, they will suppress it.

    For God's wrath is being revealed from heaven against
    all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are
    suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, Romans 1:18

    For there is nothing hidden that will not
    become manifest, neither anything carefully
    concealed that will never become known and
    never come into the open. Luke 8:17

    Sincerely The Expositors
    biblexaminer2k

    pomegranate posted Tue, 29 May 2001 23:34:00 GMT(5/29/2001)

    Post 83 of 1285
    Joined 4/4/2001

    you should post in smaller chunks...

    TOO BIG..

    pom

    Sorry

    M Francois posted Tue, 29 May 2001 23:35:00 GMT(5/29/2001)

    Post 261 of 5172
    Joined 3/31/2001

    Words, words, words, words, words.

    At Pentecost, the Helper, the Holy Spirit, was poured out upon all flesh.

    And it is and has been available to every human being on this world every day ever since. One has only to open the door of the heart, let it in, and accept its guidance.

    Francois

    pomegranate posted Wed, 30 May 2001 00:43:00 GMT(5/30/2001)

    Post 84 of 1285
    Joined 4/4/2001
    Words, words, words, words, words.

    I just wet me pants!!!!!!!!!!

    accuracy posted Wed, 30 May 2001 11:02:00 GMT(5/30/2001)

    Post 7 of 105
    Joined 5/20/2001

    You mean to say the Pentecostals are wrong about Pentecost?

    My goodness, whom can you trust?

    Many of your points were interesting, but hardly revolutionary, one way or the other. Christians have been working out certain specifics of Biblical accounts for thousands of years, it seems.

    ALF posted Thu, 31 May 2001 02:21:00 GMT(5/31/2001)

    Post 1 of 2
    Joined 5/29/2001

    Job well done!
    Your peice was somewhat lengthy, but neccessary to make your point.
    If more people were as seareous about bible study, maybe there would be a few less cults running around in sheeps clothing.

    F AGuest posted Thu, 31 May 2001 16:19:00 GMT(5/31/2001)

    Post 20 of 9474
    Joined 3/26/2001

    Hello, BXmnr... and may you have peace!

    You are absolutely correct in questioning the teaching of the WTBTS on the issue of Pentecost and how many were there, because the Book of Acts teaches that the day when 120 people were gathered, and the night in the 'upper room', were two totally different days. The first took place some days before, when they chose Matthias to replace Judas. The second was some days later.

    Another thing, though: after going into a previous lengthy discussion with Joshua1992 about the night my Lord died, it has since been revealed to me and others (and we have intensely researched) that 33CE is incorrect. What is purported to have taken place THEN, actually took place in 30CE, the year in which my Lord was put to death in the flesh (he would have BEEN 30 that Fall, and so people said that he was 'about' 30 years old, for the year started in Spring).

    You can research this, but to help you see the 'folly' in the Society's position, please know that they have my Lord as being born in the flesh in the Fall of 2BCE. They base this on their assumption of Herod's death in the Spring of 1BCE. However, it was Herod who had first tried to kill my Lord when he (my Lord) was about age 2. Thus, when Herod died, my Lord would have HAD to have been at least age 2. And he was, in fact, two-and-a-half, being age TWO, in the Fall of 2BCE. For he was born in the Fall... of 4 BCE. And every Bible scholar EXCEPT the WTBTS states this fact.

    There is some discrepancy as to when Herod died, though. Due to an eclipse, some have him dying in 4BCE due to a partial eclipse that occurred that year. That would mean, however, that my Lord was born in about 6BCE and died in the flesh, then, in 28 or 29CE. The truth is, however, that a FULL eclipse occurred just before the Passover in the year 1BCE (year 3761 for Jews), and Herod died that year, in the Spring, a few months after that eclipse.

    Anyway, I too thought my Lord had been put to death in the flesh in the year 33CE, based on the Society's teachings. It was when Josh92 asked me on what day was he killed, etc., that I heard my Lord give me a day... but not a year. I did not understand why at that time. I although I asked again, I heard no year. I later understood that it was because (1) Joshua1992 had not specifically asked for the year; and (2) the year that we had been taught was incorrect.

    I hope this helps to shed further light on your understanding that the teachings of the WTBTS are in fact in serious error and we have based a LOT of our beliefs and faith on such errors. Once we let go of the 'baggage', however, and LET GOD... through Christ and holy spirit teach us... it is then that we will know 'all things' and 'not be needing ANYONE' to teach us.

    Again, I wish you peace and remain,

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ (don't worry, folks, I was just passin' through. I've no intention of staying at this time...)

    F AGuest posted Thu, 31 May 2001 19:04:00 GMT(5/31/2001)

    Post 21 of 9474
    Joined 3/26/2001

    Uh, one more thing, if you will permit me. Regarding your 'chronology', it actually took place as:

    1. Evening of Nisan 14, my Lord celebrates Passover with disciples, and immediately after, washes their feet. Directly after that, he begins Festival of Unfermented Cakes, by passing around unleavened bread and 'new' wine. He gives his disciples new 'symbolism' for the bread and wine.

    2. Late night Nisan 14, my Lord is arrested.

    3. Early morning Nisan 15, my Lord is taken to trial before Sanhedrin.

    3. Early day of Nisan 15, my Lord is taken before Pilate, sent to Herod, and returned to Pilate.

    4. Approx. noon Nisan 15, my Lord is handed over to Jews by Pilate and impaled.

    5. Approx. 3:00pm, Nisan 15, the Sabbath day after passover, as well as a seventh day sabbath (the 14th being a regular sabbath - 7 x 2 = 14 - and so the regular sabbath that had started the evening before was continuing until the evening of the 15th)... and therefore a 'great' sabbath... my Lord dies in the flesh. This was also a 'day of Preparation', for the 'sabbath' of the Unfermented Cakes - the day after passover and the 15th days of the month - was to being that evening.

    6. After being in Hades for 3 days and 3 nights (Thursday day, Thursday night; Friday day, Friday night; Saturday day, Saturday night), my Lord was resurrected in the wee hours of Sunday morning. This would have been the day 'after the Sabbath', Saturday, the seventh day of the WEEK, at which time the women returned to his tomb.

    There are various sabbaths and in this particular week, there were three:

    1. The 14th day of the month of Nisan (7 x 2 = 14)

    2. The 15th day of the month of Nisan, which was the day after Passover AND the sabbath called for by the Festival of Unfermented Cakes; and

    3. Saturday, the seventh day of the week.

    Sunday would have started a new week, thus the women returned 'on the first day of the week.'

    My Lord, then was resurrected not on Friday, Nisan 16th, but on Sunday, Nisan 18th, three days and nights after he died in the flesh.

    For 40 days after his resurrection on Nisan 18th, my Lord appeared to my brothers. He then ascended to my Father on Friday, Iyyar 28th. Within seven (7) days, the week, Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. And Pentecost occurred the Friday after my Lord's ascension, on Sivar 6th.

    Sivar 6th, however, is not 50 days after the resurrection of my Lord; it is 50 days after Nisan 15th, the 'sabbath' of the Unfermented Cakes, which days were to be counted by seven 'sabbaths' starting with the day after the 15th, Nisan 16th.

    Unfortunately, both you and the WTBTS have my Lord in Hades less than the 3 days and nights prophesied and may have done this to make the numbers come out right. They DO come out right if you count the days correctly, from sabbath to sabbaths, and not from his resurrection. For even if he was resurrected on the 16th, as you and the Society assert, the 40th day after that is not Iyyar 25th, but the 26th, and Pentecost 10 days later would have been on the 7th of Sivar and not the 6th. But my Lord was not resurrected on the sabbath: he was killed on one sabbath (Thursday, Nisan 15th, the day after Passover and the first day of Unfermented Cakes, a 'holy convention' sabbath), and raised up the day AFTER a sabbath, Saturday, Nisan 18th, a WEEKLY sabbath. Nisan 14th, being the second 7th day of the month, was a DAILY sabbath.

    But Shavrout (Festival of Weeks or "Pentecost") is on the 6th of Sivar, and 50 days prior to that is the 15th of Nisan, the sabbath after which the counting started: 7 x 7 = 49... start counting on the 16th and 49 days later is Sivar 5th, so 50 days is Sivar 6th.

    The PROBLEM is that you and the Society have your YEAR wrong. None of this took place in the year 33CE... but in 30CE. My previous post explains that.

    I bid you peace!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

    hawkaw posted Thu, 31 May 2001 19:13:00 GMT(5/31/2001)

    Post 47 of 3475
    Joined 3/22/2001

    Thanks big guy.

    I am printing this one off and keeping it.

    hawk

    Larsguy posted Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:02:00 GMT(6/7/2001)

    Post 1 of 175
    Joined 6/7/2001

    There are at least two things wrong with this post.

    1. A well-informed Bible student knows that Jesus died on Nisan 20th and not Nisan 14th and thus was raised on Nisan 23rd meaning that from the time of the ascension which must have occurred on Nisan 2nd, until Pentecost on Nisan 6th was only three days.

    Now a reasoning person finds this more believable than ten days since it doesn't make sense they were camped out in that upper room for ten days just to celebrate a one-day holiday, Pentecost. However, three days is reasonable since it was the that long weeked; Passover follows the sabbath day that year. That is, if Nisan 16th was on a Sunday this year then so was Pentecost.

    The second thing of note is that the houses apparently were quite capable of holding that many people. Think in terms of a house the size of that seen in the movie "Ben Hur". Wealthy people had large chamber rooms for banquets and the like and usually these were wide spaces on the roof which had windows overlooking the street. So it was likely just the covered area with large open windows to the street so that people could hear what was going on and it was a large area serving as the roof not to just one small room but to the entire house or a major part of it. Why the concern over this issue if you don't know for sure how large the homes were in Jerusalem, particularly that of a wealthy individual?

    When you fix these two points, then your article will have more meaning. So...

    1. Drop the discussion of the 10-day delay and make it 3 days, and make your adjustment.

    2. Don't worry about a room being large enough to hold 120 people; that's the square footage of the size of most of our kingdom Halls which if converted into a home wouldn't necessarily be that large of a home, especially for a wealthy person, plus the fact you don't need the parking lot!

    LG

    logical posted Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:24:00 GMT(6/7/2001)

    Post 774 of 1626
    Joined 12/19/2000
    SJ (don't worry, folks, I was just passin' through. I've no intention of staying at this time...)

    Stay all you like, its so refreshing to read real discussions on here amongst the madness.

    Larsguy posted Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:29:00 GMT(6/7/2001)

    Post 2 of 175
    Joined 6/7/2001

    You have a lot wrong with this post. But since there is so much wrong, let me just describe how I see these events occurring.

    First of all, the Jews celebrate Passover the night before the Festival of Unfermented Cakes which celebrates the date they left Egypt, which is Nisan 15th. The lambs are killed per Josephus from 3 through 5 pm (ninth to the eleventh hours) AT THE TEMPLE. The scriptures confirm that the lambs are slaughtered, of course the day before Nisan 15th on Nisan 14th. Bottom line then, Jesus must have been arrested on Nisan 15th which in 33CE was a sabbath day and thus could not have been killed that day. The only other date that fits all the scriptures is the next day of "preparation" which was Thursday, Nisan 20th. That allowed Jesus to be in the tomb for the prophesied "three nights" (Matthew 12:40). So since you talk about reasoning minds, please tell me how you can claim Jesus got raised on Nisan 16th which is just two nights from Friday, Nisan 14th, if he died that day?

    Anyway, after his death on Nisan 20th and being in the tomb for three days he rose before daylight that Saturday night/Sunday early morning and was around for 40 days. If he ascended on the 40th day, thus two days shy of a complete 6 weeks which is 42 days, then he would have ascended on a Thursday. The way I have to figure it is if he rose on a Sunday, then the 42nd day would have fallen on a Saturday, the 41st day on a Friday and thus the 40th day was a Thursday. Thus the events after his ascension until Pentecost was a period of just three days, not ten.

    Now as far as the house situation is concerned, this is an UPPER CHAMBER and thus I presume a roof chamber, meaning the roof which covered the entire surface area of the entire house that might have been covered but with large windows open to the outside. Thus they used the roof area for large banquets and gatherings, etc.

    Thus when the holy sprit occurred and all this noise and the speaking in tongues, which probably echoed and amplified to the outside, a large multitude gathered outside the house where the upper chamber had windows lining the outer wall. Thus Peter "with a loud voice" could have addressed the people being gathered there from the upper story, probably walking out onto a balcony.

    So try to imagine what happened. Imagine that holy spirit amplified the voices in tongues and it was a VERY LOUD noise, like the PA system of an assembly, so that people for nearly a mile around heard this speaking amplified in their own tongue. They were amazed and then began to collect outside where they heard this amplified voice in their own tongue. Then Peter went to the large window or balcony and explained what was happening.

    That's it. No mystery. No complexities to try to move this ten-day event to the temple which contradicts scripture. Furthermore, that large multitude didn't go inside the house and then run upstairs to see all this. They merely gathered at the house where they heard this amplified voice in their tongue.

    What we must learn to do is to take what the scripture way and then extrapolate scenarios that fit the scripture, not use our limited imaginations to find "reasonable" contradictions that don't exist.

    Thanks, again for this nice article though. It would be nice if you rewrote it correcting the details I pointed out and see how much better it works out.

    LG

    logical posted Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:37:00 GMT(6/7/2001)

    Post 777 of 1626
    Joined 12/19/2000

    LG

    There is a pretty important reason why I am more inclined to believe AGuest's explanation rather than yours.

    Nowhere in your post have you attributed Jesus as the source of your understanding, however AGuest has.

    Cant remember the exact scripture, but it goes something like "Do not lean upon your own understanding".

    Larsguy posted Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:20:00 GMT(6/7/2001)

    Post 5 of 175
    Joined 6/7/2001

    Dear logical,

    There is an academic contest here that you are ignoring. AGuest is presuming that Herod's death in 4BCE is unchallenged,which is not; plus the fact that the 2BCE dating is directly based upon the historical dating of Tiberius' 15th year falling in 28-29CE.

    Thus there is a direct conflict between Herod's death in 4BCE and Tiberius' 15th year in 29CE if Jesus was barely 30 in that year (i.e. "as if 30" implies he was still actually 29 but close to 30).

    But since the eclipse in 4BCE seems to be so preemptive, you should know it doesn't work historically and thus can be dismissed.

    For instance, the traditional date for the death of Herod is on Shebat 2nd, which is the 11th month. The eclipsed occurred in the 12th month on on March 13/14, just a month before Passover on full moon April 13/14. So you see, the eclipse happens some 6 to 10 weeks AFTER the death of Herod if he actually died on Shebat 2nd.

    In the meantime, this eclipse event doesn't work historically either since it has to follow an annual Jewish fast. Therefore, since the fast and eclipse occurred just before Herod's death, within a month, and he died on Shebat 2, the only possible month for both the fast and an eclipse closely following is the 10th month, during which the fast of Tebet 10 does occur just 3-4 days before an eclipse would have taken place on Tebet 13-15 during full moon (i.e. lunar eclipses only occur during full moon.)

    So the only question here is, before we dismiss this eclipse reference totally is whether or not there was an eclipse on Tebet 13-15 1BCE which would have been consistent with Jesus being between 1-2 years old when Herod died. The answer, of course, is yes!

    Thus we know that Herod's reign was moved by erroneously by 3 years for some reason, but the eclipse event was provided for the Jewish rabbis to secretly confirm the true date of Herod's death correctly in line with that eclipse event in 1 AD.

    Please also note this is more than apparent when we see that two rulership periods are given for Herod, one 37 years from the time he was appointed by Caesar and one when he actually began his rule. These dates are 40BCE and 37CE. But usually when there is a historical revisionism, a second jive reference to the historical rulership is invented to cover the original reference. So even if we made this presumption whenever we saw double-dated reigns like this, we would assume alternatively a reference that Herod actually ruled for 37 years but from 37CE. In that case, his death would have occurred on Shebat 2, 1 AD. Actually, this confirms the original dating for some. Thus there is some strong supplemental historical dating apart from scripture that confirms Herod's original dated death on Shebat 2, 1AD. In the meantime, the 4BCE eclipse is totally spurious historically, occurring after he allegedly died!!!! So it doesn't work. The true reference was to the eclipse of Tebet 14 1BCE following the fast of Tebet ten, these two events occurring corretly just less than a month for Herod's death on Shebat 2.

    There is more information why the 4BCE eclipse is totally bogus if you actually want to get into it. But it is interesting that AGuest uses the elipse as the critical reference for Jesus' correct birth date rather than the Biblical dating of the 15th year of Tiberius in 29CE to date Jesus' birth in 2BCE. Even though now, alternative historical references also confirm Herod's death in 1AD, completely in harmony with the Biblical context of these events.

    Thus the accurate date for Jesus' birth is 2BCE and for Herod's death, Shebat 2, 1AD for some of us.

    And by the way, this is the Biblical dating, which I prefer to use as a reference rather than bogus claims of getting this information from Jesus Christ which since it is totally wrong, apparently AGuest did not. Jesus doesn't give out false dates.

    LG

    F AGuest posted Thu, 07 Jun 2001 22:40:00 GMT(6/7/2001)

    Post 85 of 9474
    Joined 3/26/2001

    Lordy, I really hate when people say I said something I did not say. BTW, peace to you all!
    LG has stated:

    :>AGuest is presuming that Herod's death in 4BCE is unchallenged,which is not; plus the fact that the 2BCE dating is directly based upon the historical dating of Tiberius' 15th year falling in 28-29CE."

    AND

    :>"There is more information why the 4BCE eclipse is totally bogus if you actually want to get into it. But it is interesting that AGuest uses the elipse as the critical reference for Jesus' correct birth date rather than the Biblical dating of the 15th year of Tiberius in 29CE to date Jesus' birth in 2BCE. Even though now, alternative historical references also confirm Herod's death in 1AD, completely in harmony with the Biblical context of these events."

    And INDEED, I SAID:

    :>"There is some discrepancy as to when Herod died, though. Due to an eclipse, some have him dying in 4BCE due to a partial eclipse that occurred that year. That would mean, however, that my Lord was born in about 6BCE and died in the flesh, then, in 28 or 29CE. The truth is, however, that a FULL eclipse occurred just before the Passover in the year 1BCE (year 3761 for Jews), and Herod died that year, in the Spring, a few months after that eclipse."

    Please, LG, if you are going to disagree with what I said, then at least disagree... with WHAT I SAID.

    I bid you peace, and maintain that what my Lord told me and research later PROVED to me... is true.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

    F AGuest posted Thu, 07 Jun 2001 22:41:00 GMT(6/7/2001)

    Post 86 of 9474
    Joined 3/26/2001

    Lordy, I really hate when people say I said something I did not say. BTW, peace to you all!
    LG has stated:

    :>AGuest is presuming that Herod's death in 4BCE is unchallenged,which is not; plus the fact that the 2BCE dating is directly based upon the historical dating of Tiberius' 15th year falling in 28-29CE."

    AND

    :>"There is more information why the 4BCE eclipse is totally bogus if you actually want to get into it. But it is interesting that AGuest uses the elipse as the critical reference for Jesus' correct birth date rather than the Biblical dating of the 15th year of Tiberius in 29CE to date Jesus' birth in 2BCE. Even though now, alternative historical references also confirm Herod's death in 1AD, completely in harmony with the Biblical context of these events."

    And INDEED, I SAID:

    :>"There is some discrepancy as to when Herod died, though. Due to an eclipse, some have him dying in 4BCE due to a partial eclipse that occurred that year. That would mean, however, that my Lord was born in about 6BCE and died in the flesh, then, in 28 or 29CE. The truth is, however, that a FULL eclipse occurred just before the Passover in the year 1BCE (year 3761 for Jews), and Herod died that year, in the Spring, a few months after that eclipse."

    Please, LG, if you are going to disagree with what I said, then at least disagree... with WHAT I SAID.

    I bid you peace, and maintain that what my Lord told me and research later PROVED to me... is true.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

    Larsguy posted Fri, 08 Jun 2001 08:22:00 GMT(6/8/2001)

    Post 7 of 175
    Joined 6/7/2001

    Dear AGuest,

    Sorry for misquoting you. I should have read you more closely.

    Based upon your statements, however, you still don't address that the Bible dates Jesus' baptism in the 15th of Tiberius which locks it into 29CE, meaning if he was almost 30 at the time he would have been born in the fall of 2BCE based upon that. The fact that Herod's death date is up in the air would seem to permit us to date Jesus' birth correctly in 2BCE without critical contradiction historically.

    LG

    God_knows posted Fri, 08 Jun 2001 12:01:00 GMT(6/8/2001)

    Post 26 of 97
    Joined 6/4/2001

    BIBLEEXAMINER

    I am not a JW and never was, but I can tell you this; in your first post you re asking a lot of questions that are of no importance and do not affect the facts in any way.

    As for the last two questions, baptisms were done in the Jordan, and quite clearly those 3000 that were saved that day did not all have to fit in the upper room of that house, or even be in that house.

    biblexaminer posted Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:51:00 GMT(6/17/2001)

    Post 57 of 443
    Joined 4/3/2001

    I have read all these nice things that people wrote. In the end, it is absolutely true, and nobody here will contest I'm sure... that I or you nor anyone on this planet will live or die for our understanding or mis-understanding of these events. Can anyone prove I will die if I dont accept so and so's ideas?

    Yet the WTS DOES say that I WILL die if I don't accept what the GB teaches. This proves they are wrong.

    As well, I did not make the claim, as have others, that I had some revelation from God or Christ. Shame.

    Nor do I use as the foundation for my exegeses "Ben Hur" or any other Hollywood production.

    Those who insist on squashing 120 persons into a tiny "upper room" for some duration, only do so as the result of pressures to conform to some religious edict of a church organization or teachings from upbringing.

    I hold to Scripture. I hold to common sense. I hold to love.

    F AGuest posted Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:16:00 GMT(6/17/2001)

    Post 160 of 9474
    Joined 3/26/2001

    Hello, Joshua (Larsguy) and BibleExaminer...

    Sorry, it took me so long to reply to your responses ('15th year of Tiberius' and 'holding to scripture'). I didn't see the new posts until just today. Of course, I had to go back to my Lord and ask... in order to 'receive'. And I did. I was directed to research the reign of Tiberius... and, Joshua, you are a bit off.

    You see, although Tiberius Caesar started to rule INDEPENDENTLY in the 14 A.D., he actually BEGAN his rulership, as co-ruler of his stepfather, Augustus Caesar... in 11 CE, 3 years earlier. And he was RECOGNIZED as ruler then. So, when speaking of Tiberius' 15th year, Luke was going by what folks went by back THEN... and not what WE go by now. August died in the early Fall of 14 and Tiberius became sole ruler that Winter. However, counting from when Tiberius' reign was RECOGNIZED, 11 CE, my Lord WAS baptized in late Summer/early Fall of 26CE, within the '15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, prior to the start of Tiberius' 16th year, which would have started the Winter of 26CE.

    Almost 3-1/2 years from that, in the Spring of 30 CE, my Lord was put to death in the flesh.

    Here is the chronology:

    Early fall 4 BCE: My Lord born in the flesh - age 0

    Fall 3BCE: My Lord turns age one

    Fall 2BCE: My Lord turns age two

    Spring 1 BCE: My Lord age 2-1/2; Herod dies

    Late Fall 11 BCE: Beginning of Tiberius' corule w/Augustus)

    Late Summer 26CE: My Lord baptized in Jordan river just before starting his 30th year and still in the 15th year of Tiberius' reign

    Spring 30CE: Nisan 14 (Wednesday)- My Lord celebrates the Passover with his apostles that evening

    Nisan 15 (Thursday) - A 'holy convention' sabbath which started at daybreak, but for the Jews, 'Preparation' day (they would celebrate the sabbath that EVENING... my Lord taken to 'mock' trial before the Sanhedrin, taken before Pilate (who was in town), before Herod (who resided in the palace IN town), and then back to Pilate, who delivered him up at about noon. My Lord was then put to death in
    the flesh at about 3:00pm.

    Nisan 17th (Saturday) - the 'weekly' sabbath.

    Nisan 18th (Sunday) - The day AFTER the 'weekly' sabbath, my Lord raised up after spending three days and nights in Hades. Women come to tomb in early morning.

    I am TRULY sorry that the 'false stylus' (Jeremiah 8:8) of 'earthling' man has been remiss in recording with accuracy. But we are, after all, imperfect. History is RECORDED... to the best of 'earthling' man's ability, and nothing more. And, BibleExaminer, that is the VERY reason WHY my Lord said:

    "You are SEARCHING the scriptures...
    because you THINK...
    that by means of THEM...
    you will have life.
    And THESE (the scriptures)...
    are the VERY ones...
    that bear witness...
    ABOUT ME!

    And yet...
    YOU DO NOT WANT TO COME...
    TO ME...
    that you may have life!"

    John 5:39, 40

    It is these very words, dear ones, that make me KNOW I cannot rely on what is 'written' because what is 'written' HAS been tampered with. Not just the Bible, the scriptures, etc., by mankind's recorded history. NONE of it is absolutely accurate. Even YOU know this. Read your newspapers and magazines... is earthling man SO much LESS accurate now than before? Or more? Why then does one news report say it occurred such and so... and another say it occurred thus and so. It is BECAUSE... we are imperfect.

    Am I saying the prophets were inaccurate? Never may that happen! I AM saying, however, that the COPYISTS... and scribes... were! That is why we HAVE so many versions, renderings and translations, dear ones!

    So... I HAVE to RELY... on the Truth. John 14:6 For he is the ONLY One who possesses the truth... and dispenses it... truthfully. Proverbs 8:4-9 Indeed, if you want to KNOW the truth... know him or ABOUT him... should you not then GO... TO HIM?
    John 7:37, 38

    Were we not told that 'anything you ask in my name, the Father WILL give you'? Why then would I not ask for CLARIFICATION of what occurred? I did... and do. And... I 'receive'. You can do it, too. Or... you can continue to 'put your trust in earthling man... to whom NO SALVATION BELONGS.' The choice... is entirely yours.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

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