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Charlses T Russell, WTBTS man?

    M be wise posted Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:34:00 GMT(4/29/2003)

    Post 167 of 495
    Joined 1/28/2003

    I have been researching Charles T Russell. I'm just getting a bit disatisfied of hearsay one way or another.

    I have basically found out that the chances of him being a Freemason are divided by a lot of confusion. He did a talk where he discussed Freemasonry but by the word of other Masons in the room he knew little about the subject matter. There is a lot of controversy that surrounds what the Freemason’s believe themselves and where their tradition stems from [Some say Solomon’s temple]. So it could equally be false.

    Also, it was said he was a Knights Templar not a Freemason but to get the position of Knights Templar you first have to be a Freemason. He also denounced the Freemason beliefs in public but also tried to use them to get Freemasons to follow his beliefs by using similarities between his beliefs and there’s.

    Apparently, the pyramid that is found by his grave does not have Masonic connections according to what I’ve read; it’s just a symbol of mystery. His fanatical interest in The Great Pyramid obviously explains much about why it’s there. What I don’t understand is why is there a symbol connected to Freemasonry on it. [The cross and crown]. Is there evidence of this being a Masonic symbol? Also I am wondering did the Freemasons have connections with the occult?

    I have found out that a very controversial figure by a JW’s standards formed the foundation of their organisation. He believed in the measurements of The Great Pyramid foretold events that happened after it was built like Jesus birth and 1914 amongst many other things. He also believed that the prophets of old would come back to earth like Abraham, they even built houses for them. He also believed that the angels inspired him directly in his work. Which, supposedly the WTBTS does not agree with.

    This is just what I’ve researched and read. If anyone has done any research themselves and knows of any more evidence on the Freemason matter or on Russell himself I would appreciate it.

    M gumby posted Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:42:00 GMT(4/29/2003)

    Post 3141 of 13036
    Joined 7/22/2001

    Are intrested in finding out if Jehovahs Witnesses are gods channel of truth.....or are you just curious about C.T. Russell?

    M be wise posted Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:04:00 GMT(4/29/2003)

    Post 169 of 495
    Joined 1/28/2003

    Gumby, I know it's not Gods channel of truth from experience and a lot of other facts support this too.[wrongly calculated dates and prophecys etc].

    I'm researching for myself each member of the governing body and then in more detail the WTBTS. I'm interested in finding out the facts for myself. Mainly so I can use these in educating JW's of the truth behind their organisation and for myself so I'm not just listening to what other people say, these arguments never hold up with hardcore JW's. Actually, I've just been talking to my mum tonight about the stuff I found out. Her excuse - she doesn't listen to the society when she knows it's not in the bible. She kills herself with her own argument but always seems to wriggle out [she's very educated in the bible], so I explain things from a personal level [WBTS past beliefs on rape], she says, yep, it's progressive light, that's different now. I said no it's common sense not to believe in such disrespectfull drivel you don't need progressive light to tell you that[worded it differentely], but she won't see it. I even mentioned the 2 witness rule regarding child molesters. She gave me the usual JW banter. I said give me real evidence of your opinion. I said there are lots of real life example of victims, explain that. Ends by saying we must agree to differ. ...I give up ...never.

    M gumby posted Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:32:00 GMT(4/29/2003)

    Post 3142 of 13036
    Joined 7/22/2001
    I'm interested in finding out the facts for myself. Mainly so I can use these in educating JW's of the truth behind their organisation and for myself so I'm not just listening to what other people say
    I'm interested in finding out the facts for myself

    Not a bad idea for personal knowledge.

    Mainly so I can use these in educating JW's of the truth behind their organisation

    It doesn't sound like the good things you do know are having an effect on your mother.

    Heres the deal......no dub will listen to you.........regardless of what you have to say.....unless they are willing to accept truth over emotion. I think it's good for you to resolve within yourself the truth behind the 'truth"........just don't get too excited thinking that once you know it all about them that you will get real far.

    Some try so hard to disprove the dubs they become a thorn in the side for anyone to take. If they don't want to hear it......don't waste your time on that person or you'll do more damage than good.

    Gumby

    M be wise posted Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:57:00 GMT(4/29/2003)

    Post 172 of 495
    Joined 1/28/2003

    Thanks for the advice, gumby it's made me think.

    When I talked about 'educating' dubs, I didn't mean going out of my way to do it but just so that I could refute petty nuances from any dubs I might come across, also so I can help people here. The fact is when someone knows what there talking about it makes people think cos it's fact not just half truths and emotion.

    M chasson posted Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:12:00 GMT(4/29/2003)

    Post 437 of 861
    Joined 4/2/2001

    >What I don’t understand is why is there a symbol connected to Freemasonry on it. [The cross and crown]. Is there evidence of this being a Masonic symbol?

    The cross and crown is a christian's symbol. Some catholic's and protestant's denomination use it.

    http://www.gargouille.info/Pyramide/debuga.htm

    William Penn, founder of Pennsylvania, and an eminent Quaker, used it as a teaching in his book: "No cross No crown"

    Bye

    Charles

    M be wise posted Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:26:00 GMT(4/29/2003)

    Post 179 of 495
    Joined 1/28/2003

    Thankyou Charles, you have been most helpfull. I've looked this site very quickly and it seem's to make a lot of sense. I will look at it more closely another time but all the links are provided which is very helpfull.

    Thanks again for your help!

    C U, be wise.

    Kenneson posted Wed, 30 Apr 2003 00:14:00 GMT(4/30/2003)

    Post 1692 of 5244
    Joined 1/8/2002

    "He also believed that the prophets of old would come back to earth like Abraham, they even built house for them."

    Do you mean Rutherford instead of Russell? Rutherford built Beth Sarim in California to accommodate the so-called return of the Old Testament greats.

    M be wise posted Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:07:00 GMT(4/30/2003)

    Post 181 of 495
    Joined 1/28/2003

    Sorry, must have got my wires crossed. I will be looking into the rest of the GB as soon as I've looked into Russell in a bit more depth. It's amazing to find out the beliefs these people had, I mean you hear about them very briefly but when you start looking into it yourself it's really fascinating. It really opens your eyes regarding this squeaky-clean image of an organisation that they so sadly try to portray.

    Also, I’ve heard that the structure of this organisation has changed dramatically at some point with the GB. This doesn't surprise me. I think the image of the organisation and the propaganda status of it has been taken way to far. They've always claimed divine inspiration or should I carefully word that 'guidance' which in my opinion is very wrong.

    Old timer JW's know their bible more often than not, and some knew when to choose to ignore the GB, why they stayed I can’t understand [way of life, family etc I suppose] while the new breed don't know shit but go along with whatever they're told and are manipulated and brainwashed into following the ideas of the GB. They have been lied to and deceived for the organisations own twisted view that they are doing a 'sifting work'. Gimme a break ..a sifting work. Also, they scare their members into submission through fear and guilt and are so caught up in the technicalities of the bible that they miss its true meaning [sound like anyone?]. Take the ever-changing stance on blood. It is rediculas that the WTBTS is getting so bogged down by such techniqual teachings; its followers often don’t know what to believe, it’s policies change from one moment to the next, but they leave it up to the GB, wide open mouthed, to feed them like children with no thought process of there own [even the hardcore-know their bible JW’s fall for this one]. And it has serious implications as people die as a result!

    I wonder what Jesus would make of this society if he existed today?

    petespal2002 posted Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:16:00 GMT(4/30/2003)

    Post 51 of 232
    Joined 4/18/2002

    "I wonder what Jesus would have made of this society had he existed today"

    Personally I wonder what we would have made of Jesus and the movement he was starting had we lived then? What would you think if someone walked up to you in the main street and said "be my follower"? There's every chance we would have thought him a nut as many then did. He'd want you to leave behind all your possessions to follow him, and in doing so there was every chance of getting killed by his enemies. To follow him would mean becoming a laughing stock to your peers and your family, and linking yourself to a ridiculed minority. You would be totally at odds with the established religion of the time/area, and what's more Jesus would send you out to preach from house to house and city to city that you were the only ones with "truth" and they didn't have a hope in hell unless they converted!

    Doesn't sound that much different to being a dub.

    M be wise posted Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:48:00 GMT(4/30/2003)

    Post 182 of 495
    Joined 1/28/2003

    This was a question to separate the WTBTS teaching from the bible or Jesus teaching, which it is to often confused by JW's. They think because they’ve got their own translation of the bible and a load of books on these matters they accept that the WTBTS teachings as being from God not the GB men who study it and apply there own ideas.

    What would you think if someone walked up to you in the main street and said, "be my follower"? There's every chance we would have thought him a nut as many then did.

    I’m not religious, anymore but I like to think as you do. Lets assume this is just a story in a book nothing more Didn’t Jesus perform miracles? This must have convinced some people. Although, saying that the supernatural was more commonly accepted fact then, I think. So where did this power come from, people would have questioned this all the time? Some would have thought the Devil some God. People would have hated him because of the claims he made. Religious leaders definitely would have. The Christian congregation that resulted was so far from what he taught if you look at it from an objective point of view and don't treat it with fanatisism. It was self-righteous, absolute, separated from society. [He said ‘you must be no part of the 'world’, but this could mean anything.] Also, how literally should we take the bible? I know for a fact that when people do they are just unreasonable and at some stage just lose their head up their own ass. Do they miss the true meaning of it? The Pharisees made such a big deal about following the law, that it became a joke and ritualistic, like the WTBTS today. The difference the Pharisees were a religious organization where as Jehovah’s Witnesses are a harmful organisation that uses cult like methods.

    To follow him would mean becoming a laughing stock to your peers and your family, and linking yourself to a ridiculed minority. You would be totally at odds with the established religion of the time/area, and what's more Jesus would send you out to preach from house to house and city to city that you were the only ones with "truth" and they didn't have a hope in hell unless they converted!

    Doesn't sound that much different to being a dub.

    No, it doesn’t, but all religious cults are essentially the same.

    petespal2002 posted Wed, 07 May 2003 10:52:00 GMT(5/7/2003)

    Post 52 of 232
    Joined 4/18/2002

    By concluding with "all religious cults are essentially the same", in the context of your argument you have infered that the movement started by Jesus was a cult, which in one way it has to be if we argue that cults are always the brainchild of a man who takes the lead and acts as figurehead.

    M Pistoff posted Thu, 08 May 2003 16:37:00 GMT(5/8/2003)

    Post 363 of 3346
    Joined 7/8/2002

    bewise wrote:

    WBTS past beliefs on rape

    Those disgusting views are CURRENT; check the Feb 1 2003 WT QFR. It reiterates the idea that a woman would be guilty of wrongdoing if she did not scream during rape.

    Check it out. This WT should outrage every witness; that it does not says much for mind control.

    pistoff

    Farkel posted Thu, 08 May 2003 17:22:00 GMT(5/8/2003)

    Post 5265 of 11743
    Joined 3/14/2001

    You might find it interesting to know that over the years, I've presented this simple challenge to JWs:

    "Name just ONE doctrine that was unique to Russell and his Bible Students that is still taught by the WTS today."

    No JW has been able to meet this challenge. They've mentioned things like "no hellfire, no trinity, the ransom sacrifice" and so forth but those beliefs which are still taught today are not unique to the JW religion.

    Put simply, honest dubs would have to admit that for some strange reason God "chose" and God "directed" a "Laodecian Messenger" to preach and spread doctrine and chronology all of which has been discarded over the years.

    To put it even more simply, if dubs are to be believed, then God is stupid with his selection of modern-day representatives.

    Farkel

    M be wise posted Tue, 13 May 2003 02:08:00 GMT(5/13/2003)

    Post 288 of 495
    Joined 1/28/2003

    Events following the death of Pastor Charles Taze Russell.

    http://www.food4jws.org/wt_history/specialinterest.htm

    M PopeOfEruke posted Tue, 13 May 2003 02:54:00 GMT(5/13/2003)

    Post 825 of 2171
    Joined 8/6/2001

    Hey Farkel,

    wouldn't the average dub say "1914 and the establishment of Gods Kingdom". Even allowing for the visible/invisible thing?

    Pope

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