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All About Jesus Christ

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:35:00 GMT(3/27/2003)

    Post 1391 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Below are several different Threads I have posted on JWD in the past about my Lord Jesus Christ. I have updated them and added more information, and I am posting them all on one big Thread here. I hope you enjoy!

    The Watchtower Society says that Jesus Christ is a liar!

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com ), January 5th 2003 (Updated March 27th 2003).

    Here is BIG CONTRADICTION between the Watchtower and the Bible:

    The Watchtower Society says that Jesus Christ was Resurrected as a "Spirit Creature" and that He no longer had His Body because Jehovah (The Father) "zapped" His Body out of existence.

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus was resurrected as a SPIRIT and WAS NOT resurrected in His Physical Body.

    Jesus Christ said: "See My hands and My feet, that it is truly Me. Touch Me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have." (Luke 24:39)

    Jesus must have told the Apostles a DIRECT LIE in Luke 24:39 about NOT being a spirit, if the Watchtower is correct.

    So, according to Watchtower Doctrine, Jesus "materialized" a fake body with fake holes in His fake hands and a fake hole in His fake side in order to LIE TO and DECEIVE the Apostles into believing that He was resurrected in His Body, but in actuality Jehovah had already zapped Jesus' Body and turned it into gases.

    So, Official Watchtower Doctrine says that Jesus Christ LIED to the Apostles.

    Try using this when a Jehovah's Witness comes knocking on the door -- I would love to hear their reply.

    "The Atonement Between God and Man" ("Studies in the Scriptures" Volume 5), 1899, Page 454:

    "...the man Jesus is dead, forever dead..."
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    "The Kingdom is at Hand", 1944, Page 259:

    "...the bodies in which Jesus manifested himself to the disciples after his return to life were not the body in which he was nailed to the tree."
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    "The Watchtower", October 1st 1955 Issue, Page 518:

    "...[Jesus Christ's original human body] was disposed of by Jehovah God, dissolved into its constituent elements or atoms."
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    "Things in Which it is Impossible for God to Lie", 1965, Page 354:

    "The human body of flesh, which Jesus Christ laid down forever as a ransom sacrifice, was disposed of by God's power..."
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    Paradise Restored Book (1972), Page 87:

    On Nisan 14 of the year 33 C.E., Jesus Christ as a spiritual high priest completed his sacrifice on earth, his dead body of flesh being entombed. On the third day therefrom, on Nisan 16, 33 C.E., he was resurrected from the dead as a spirit person, thus passing beyond the barrier that was pictured by the temple veil between the Holy and the Most Holy, namely, his flesh. Thus he was able to enter into the real Most Holy, into the presence of Jehovah God in heaven itself, there as high priest to present the value of his human sacrifice and make atonement for humankind.—Hebrews 9:23-28; 6:19, 20; 10:19, 20.
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    Eternal Purpose Book (1974), Pages 154-155:

    20. The apostle Peter, to whom the resurrected Jesus appeared once privately, gives us the explanation for these materializations such as the spirit angels had made in the days of the ancient prophets. Peter says: “Christ also died for our sins once and for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” (1 Peter 3:18, 19, NEB; RS; 1 Corinthians 15:5; Luke 24:34) At his resurrection it was done with him as it is foretold to occur to his faithful disciples at their resurrection:

    “It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    “However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. . . . For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up forever.’”—1 Corinthians 15:43-45, 50-54.

    “For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.”—Romans 6:5.

    21. Accordingly, the Scriptural evidence proves that Jesus Christ was resurrected as a spirit Son of God in immortality and incorruption. (Acts 13:32-37) So, at his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ did not withdraw his human body as a sacrifice off God’s altar by resuming his human body. (Hebrews 10:1-10) Just as on the annual Day of Atonement the bodies of those animal victims whose blood was taken into the Most Holy for sin were disposed of, so God accepted the sacrifice of Jesus’ human nature and disposed of Jesus’ human body. How? We do not know. (Hebrews 13:10-13; Leviticus, chapter sixteen) Although Almighty God did not resurrect his Son Jesus Christ in a human body, the resurrected Son of God did retain the value or merit of his human sacrifice, which was like the sacrificial blood that the Jewish high priest carried into the Most Holy of the temple so as to make atonement for sin.
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    Holy Spirit Book (1976), Page 19:

    Jesus Christ made a clarifying statement on the day of his resurrection from the dead. He appeared to his disciples in a locked room in Jerusalem. To do this, he appeared in a materialized body like that in which he had died, but they thought they were seeing a spirit. Well, what did he say to them? This: “A spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.”—Luke 24:36-39.

    After conversing with those amazed disciples, the resurrected Jesus vanished. He dematerialized or dissolved that clothed human body. He did not take that body and its clothing into the spirit realm with him. Had it been possible to do so, it would mean that a spirit person in heaven does have flesh and bones, at least in the case of the glorified Jesus Christ.—1 Corinthians 15:50.

    Pages 167-168:

    So the perfect human body that God miraculously “prepared” for Jesus on earth was the body that Jesus offered to God once for all time in sacrifice. It was given for mankind to feed upon like bread; just as Jesus said: “The bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (Hebrews 10:1-10; John 6:51) So, after his being “put to death in the flesh,” Jesus, if he were to be raised to life again, had to be “made alive in the spirit,” as a heavenly spirit Son of God.
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    Truth Book (1981), Page 52:

    15. Jehovah God did not leave his Son dead in the grave, but raised him to life on the third day. He was not given human life again, because that would have meant that he was taking back the ransom price. But he was “made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) During a period of forty days after his resurrection he appeared visibly to his disciples a number of times, in materialized bodies, to prove that he really had been raised from the dead.
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    Worldwide Security Book (1986), Page 103:

    Since that “great shepherd” laid down his human life for “the sheep,” he could be resurrected from the dead in an immortal, bloodless spirit body but with the value of the blood of the new covenant that is faithfully kept and that is everlasting in its good effects.
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    Insight on the Scriptures Book, Volume 1 (1988), Page 349:

    The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.

    After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15) He again appeared, entering a room with locked doors, having a body with wound marks. (Joh 20:24-29) Several times he manifested himself and was recognized, not by his appearance, but by his words and actions. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18) Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity. (Joh 21:4-7, 12) Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.

    Page 352:

    After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared to some of his disciples, who thought they were beholding a spirit. To reassure them Jesus said: “Feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.” (Lu 24:39) Jesus’ not saying he was flesh and blood has caused some to say that he had a “spiritualized” body of flesh and bones with no blood. There is no foundation for this argument, for the disciples could see that he had bones and flesh, but no blood was running from his body for him to call to their attention. Jesus thereby provided evidence by the mouth of 11 apostles and others assembled with them on that occasion that he was truly resurrected to life and that the disciples were suffering no hallucination in declaring his resurrection.

    Page 373:

    On one occasion Jesus said to the Jews: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (Joh 2:19) The Jews thought he was speaking of the temple of Herod and used this against him at his trial, witnesses against him saying: “We heard him say, ‘I will throw down this temple that was made with hands and in three days I will build another not made with hands.’” (Mr 14:58) Jesus was using figurative speech, referring to “the temple of his body.” He was put to death and on the third day rose again. (Joh 2:21; Mt 16:21; Lu 24:7, 21, 46) He was resurrected by his Father Jehovah God in another body, not one made with hands like the temple of Jerusalem, but a spirit body made (built) by his Father. (Ac 2:24; 1Pe 3:18)

    Page 1,197:

    Only God’s action prevented the fleshly body of his Son’s earthly existence from seeing corruption in the grave. (Ac 2:31; 13:35-37) That body, however, was not preserved for the use of the resurrected Jesus, since the apostle Peter states that Jesus was “put to death in the flesh, but . . . made alive in the spirit.” (1Pe 3:18) It thus seems evident that God disposed of that body miraculously, thereby not letting it see ruinous decay.
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    Insight on the Scriptures Book, Volume 2 (1988), Page 1,083:

    On one occasion, when the Jews demanded a sign from Jesus, he replied: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews thought he was speaking of the temple building, but the apostle John explains: “He was talking about the temple of his body.” When he was resurrected by his Father Jehovah on the third day of his death, the disciples recalled and understood this saying and believed it. (Joh 2:18-22; Mt 27:40) He was resurrected, but not in his fleshly body, which was given as a ransom sacrifice; yet that fleshly body did not go into corruption, but was disposed of by God, just as a sacrifice was consumed on the altar. Jesus, when resurrected, was the same person, the same personality, in a new body made for his new dwelling place, the spiritual heavens.—Lu 24:1-7; 1Pe 3:18; Mt 20:28; Ac 2:31; Heb 13:8.
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    Live Forever in Paradise on Earth Book (1989), Pages 143-146:

    5. On the other hand, over 1,900 years ago it was necessary for Jesus to lower himself and become a man. He needed to give his perfect human life as a ransom for us. Jesus once explained it this way: “The bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (John 6:51) Jesus thus gave up his fleshly body in sacrifice for humankind. For how long was that sacrifice to be in effect? The apostle Paul answers: “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.” (Hebrews 10:10) Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.

    FLESHLY BODY NOT TAKEN TO HEAVEN

    6. However, many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?

    7. No, it does not. The Bible is very clear when it says: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.

    8. Well, then, what happened to Jesus’ fleshly body? Did not the disciples find his tomb empty? They did, because God removed Jesus’ body. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.

    9. But since the apostle Thomas was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.

    10. While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. At other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.

    11. For 40 days after his resurrection, Jesus made appearances in a fleshly body to his disciples. (Acts 1:3) Then he left for heaven. But some may ask: ‘Did not the two angels present tell the apostles that Christ “will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky”?’ (Acts 1:11) Yes, they did. But notice that they said “in the same manner,” not in the same body. And what was the manner of Jesus’ leaving? It was quiet, without public display. Only his apostles knew about it. The world did not.

    12. Consider how the Bible describes the manner in which Jesus left his apostles on his way to heaven: “While they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision.” (Acts 1:9) So when Jesus began going into the sky, a cloud hid him from the literal eyesight of his apostles. The departing Jesus, therefore, became invisible to them. They could not see him. Then in his spiritual body he ascended to heaven. (1 Peter 3:18) Thus his return also would be invisible, in a spiritual body.
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    God's Word Book (1989), Pages 79-80:

    The Empty Tomb

    19. Had Jesus been resurrected, or is all this just a fabrication? One thing that people back then would likely have asked is: Is Jesus’ body still in his tomb? Jesus’ followers would have faced a huge obstacle if their opponents could have pointed to his actual corpse still in its burial place as evidence that he had not been resurrected. There is, however, no record that they ever did this. Rather, according to the Bible, they gave money to the soldiers assigned to guard the tomb and told them: “Say, ‘His disciples came in the night and stole him while we were sleeping.’” (Matthew 28:11-13) We also have evidence outside the Bible that the Jewish leaders acted in this way.

    20. About a century after Jesus’ death, Justin Martyr wrote a work called Dialogue With Trypho. In this, he said: “You [the Jews] have sent chosen and ordained men throughout all the world to proclaim that a godless and lawless heresy had sprung from one Jesus, a Galilæan deceiver, whom we crucified, but his disciples stole him by night from the tomb, where he was laid.”7

    21. Now, Trypho was a Jew, and the Dialogue With Trypho was written to defend Christianity against Judaism. Hence, it is unlikely that Justin Martyr would have said what he did—that the Jews accused the Christians of stealing Jesus’ body from the tomb—if the Jews had not made such a charge. Otherwise, he would have left himself open to an easily verifiable charge of lying. Justin Martyr would have said this only if the Jews really had sent out such messengers. And they would have done so only if the tomb really was empty on Nisan 16, 33 C.E. and if they could not point to Jesus’ body in the tomb as evidence that he had not been resurrected. So since the tomb was empty, what had happened? Did the disciples steal the body? Or was it removed miraculously as evidence that Jesus had really been resurrected?
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    Reasoning From The Scriptures Book (1989), Page 217:

    Does Jesus have his fleshly body in heaven?

    1 Cor. 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving spirit. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Italics added.)

    1 Pet. 3:18, RS: “Christ also died for sins once for all, . . . being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit [“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy].” (See page 334.)

    Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?

    It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, why did they not at first recognize him? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16) On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But how was it possible on that occasion for him suddenly to appear in their midst even though the doors were locked? (John 20:26, 27) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; yet, the resurrected Jesus always appeared fully clothed.—John 20:6, 7.

    Pages 334-335:

    Was Jesus raised in a body of flesh, and does he have such a body in heaven now?

    1 Pet. 3:18: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit [“by the Spirit,” KJ; “in the spirit,” RS, NE, Dy, JB].” (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)

    Acts 10:40, 41: “God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.” (Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)

    1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was perfect as was Adam when created] became a life-giving spirit.”

    What does Luke 24:36-39 mean regarding the body in which Jesus was resurrected?

    Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”

    Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.

    If the disciples had actually seen Jesus in the body that he now has in heaven, Paul would not later have referred to the glorified Christ as being “the exact representation of [God’s] very being,” because God is a Spirit and has never been in the flesh.—Heb. 1:3; compare 1 Timothy 6:16.

    When reading the reports of Jesus’ postresurrection appearances, we are helped to understand them properly if we keep in mind 1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:45, quoted on page 334.

    Page 342:

    Acts 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.” (Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)

    John 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
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    What does the Bible say?:

    John 2:18: The Jews therefore answered Him, "What sign do You show us, seeing that You do these things?"
    John 2:19: Jesus answered them, "Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise It up."
    John 2:20: The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this Temple in building, and will You raise it up in three days?"
    John 2:21: But He spoke of the Temple of His Body.
    John 2:22: When therefore He was raised from the dead, His Disciples remembered that He said this, and they believed the Scripture, and the Word which Jesus had said.

    Luke 24:36: As they said these things, Jesus Himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace be to you."
    Luke 24:37: But they were terrified and filled with fear, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    Luke 24:38: He said to them, "Why are you troubled? Why do doubts arise in your hearts?
    Luke 24:39: See My hands and My feet, that it is truly Me. Touch Me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have."
    Luke 24:40: When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
    Luke 24:41: While they still didn't believe for joy, and wondered, He said to them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
    Luke 24:42: They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
    Luke 24:43: He took them, and ate in front of them.
    Luke 24:44: He said to them, "This is what I told you, while I was still with you, that all things which are written in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms, concerning Me must be fulfilled."

    Matthew 28:5: The angel answered the women, "Don't be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus, who has been crucified.
    Matthew 28:6: He is not here, for He has risen, just like He said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
    Matthew 28:7: Go quickly and tell His Disciples, 'He has risen from the dead, and behold, He goes before you into Galilee; there you will see Him.' Behold, I have told you."

    Mark 16:5: Entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were amazed.
    Mark 16:6: He said to them, "Don't be amazed. You seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen. He is not here. Behold, the place where they laid Him!

    Acts 17:31: because He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained; whereof He has given assurance to all men, in that He has raised Him from the dead."

    1st Timothy 2:5: For there is One God, and One Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

    So, according to Watchtower Doctrine, Jesus "materialized" a fake body with fake holes in His fake hands and a fake hole in His fake side in order to deceive the Apostles into believing that He was resurrected in His Body, but in actuality Jehovah had already zapped Jesus' Body and turned it into gases.

    But, if Jesus was really resurrected as a "Spirit Creature", then why would He have even needed to try and prove that His Body was resurrected? Oh, that's right, because IF Jesus' Body was not raised up, then that means Jesus made a False Prophecy in John 2:18-22.

    I would love to hear a Jehovah's Witness try and explain this away.

    Also, the Watchtower likes to say that Jesus could not have taken His Body into Heaven because it is written "Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God", BUT NOTICE, Luke 24:29 says that Jesus' Resurrected Body was FLESH AND BONES, not Flesh and Blood!

    Also, as a side-note, Luke 24:39 shows that the Watchtower is WRONG about demons coming to Earth and having sex with women before the Flood.

    Or, if demons really did come to Earth and have sex with women, then that means Jesus used a bad arguement which wouldn't have proved anything.

    Well, who do you believe, Jesus or the Watchtower?

    I know that Jesus would not have used a bad arguement and Jesus cannot lie, so I'm gonna go with Jesus.

    In Luke 24:39, the point Jesus made to PROVE that He was raised in His Body, was that spirits (angels and demons) DO NOT have flesh and bones!

    You see, even if demons possessed humans and then caused the humans to have sex with women, it is still the humans who are having sex with each other, not the demons.

    The demons could not have actually become human -- which also proves that Jesus is not an angel -- because angels could not become humans.

    Only God can become a Human.
    _____________________________________________

    Is Jesus Christ your Mediator?

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com ), January 9th 2003 (Updated March 27th 2003).

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator ONLY for the 144,000 "Anointed" Jehovah's Witnesses and that the "Anointed" Jehovah's Witnesses are the "Mediators" for all of the "Great Crowd" of "Other Sheep".

    *** The Watchtower, April 1st 1979 Issue, Page 31 ***

    Questions from Readers

    Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?

    The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.

    Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.

    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing for Man's Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New Covenant."
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    *** The Watchtower, December 15th 1982 Issue, Page 19 ***

    "Down to the spring of 1935 the dedicated, baptized witnesses of Jehovah had entertained in true faith the 'one hope' that was set before them in Ephesians 4:4-6, as follows: 'One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons.' But in that memorable year of 1935, at the convention held in Washington, D.C., the 'great multitude,' as visualized at Revelation 7:9-17 (Authorized Version), was identified as being composed of the Fine Shepherd's 'other sheep' of John 10:16."
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    *** The Watchtower, February 15th 1991 Issue, Pages 15-20 ***

    "You Were Bought With a Price"

    8 Hence, the ransom sacrifice is fundamental to the new covenant, of which Jesus is the Mediator. Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all - this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those words especially apply to the 144,000, with whom the new covenant is made.

    [...]

    11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God's Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God's friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually "be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God."-Romans 8:21.
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, February 1st 1998 Issue, Pages 20-22 ***

    "The Other Sheep and the New Covenant"

    10 "Everyone" who "exercises faith in the Son" will benefit from the ransom sacrifice. (John 3:16, 36) Paul said: "The Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for their salvation." (Hebrews 9:28) Today, those earnestly looking for Jesus include surviving anointed Christians of the Israel of God and the millions making up the great crowd, who also have an everlasting inheritance. Both classes thank God for the new covenant and for the life-giving blessings associated with it, including the greater Atonement Day and the ministry of the High Priest, Jesus, in the heavenly Most Holy.

    [...]

    13 What happens when the last of the 144,000 realize their heavenly hope? Will the new covenant cease to apply? At that time, there will be on earth no remaining member of the Israel of God. All participants in the covenant will be with Jesus "in the kingdom of [his] Father." (Matthew 26:29) But we remember Paul's words in his letter to the Hebrews: "The God of peace . . . brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant." (Hebrews 13:20; Isaiah 55:3) In what sense is the new covenant everlasting?
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    *** The Watchtower, March 15th 1954 Issue, Page 187 ***

    "Who may partake of the Lord's evening meal? All sincere Christians? No. Why not? Because the context of the record of Jesus' institution of the Memorial as well as the testimony of other scriptures show that it is limited to those who have the hope of sharing heavenly glory with Jesus Christ, which number the Scriptures show to be limited to 144,000. ... All men of good will, however, are welcome and should come and observe the celebration. How often and when should the Lord's evening meal be celebrated?

    Regardless of how often others may profess to do so, there is no Scriptural warrant for doing so more than once a year, even as the Passover, commemorating the deliverance from Egypt, was observed once a year, and that on the night of their deliverance, Nisan 14. Since Jesus instituted his evening meal on the night of Nisan 14, it is but fitting that we continue to celebrate it on the same date."
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    *** The Watchtower, April 1st 1960 Issue, Page 199 ***

    "The Memorial's unique feature is the passing of the unleavened bread and red wine to all in attendance. But do all in attendance partake of them? No; in fact, in many if not in most instances today no one will partake. Why is that? Because the Scriptures show that Jesus instituted the Memorial of his death with those with whom he had made a covenant for his heavenly kingdom"
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    *** The Watchtower, February 15th 1985 Issue, Page 17 ***

    "There is only a remnant of such spiritual sons now living, and these are the ones who properly partake of the emblems. This, then, accounts for the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses being observers and not partakers."
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    The Bible says Jesus is the ONE Mediator for all MEN:

    1st Timothy 2:5: For there is One God, and One Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

    Hebrews 7:22: By so much has Jesus become the Collateral of a Better Covenant.
    Hebrews 7:23: Many, indeed, have been made priests, because they are hindered from continuing by death.
    Hebrews 7:24: But He, because He lives forever, has His Priesthood unchangeable.
    Hebrews 7:25: Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.
    Hebrews 7:26: For such a High Priest was fitting for us: Holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the Heavens;
    Hebrews 7:27: who doesn't need, like those high priests, to daily offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For this He did once for all, when He offered up Himself.
    Hebrews 7:28: For the Law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the Word of the Oath which came after the Law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected.

    Hebrews 8:6: But now He [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as He is also the Mediator of a Better Covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

    Hebrews 9:13: For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh:
    Hebrews 9:14: how much more will the Blood of Christ, who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the Living God?
    Hebrews 9:15: For this reason He is the Mediator of a New Covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Hebrews 12:24: to Jesus, the Mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.

    Here are some of most confusing parts of Watchtower Doctrine on Jesus as the Mediator for the 144,000:

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between God and the 144,000 "Anointed Ones" ONLY.

    Why then does the "Great Crowd of Other Sheep" pray to Jehovah in the Name of Jesus Christ?

    The "Great Crowd" should pray in the name of the "144,000", and then the "144,000" should pray to Jehovah in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Oh, and this is all Bible-Based(TM).

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator for the "Anointed Ones".

    But, the Watchtower Society also teaches that JW's SHOULD NEVER pray TO Jesus Christ.

    So, in order for Jesus to mediate the prayers of the "Anointed" to Jehovah, here's how it works:

    The "Anointed Ones" pray to Jehovah through the Name of Jesus, then Jehovah receives the prayer and gives the prayer to Jesus, so Jesus can then mediate the prayer back to Jehovah.

    Here are some great comments by JWD User "Artful" from January 9th 2003:

    This is one of the biggest problems that I have with JW theology!
    In response to 1Tim 2:5, here is the WTS official position:
    "The people of all nation who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus' services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah." WT August 15, 1989 p 31

    Although the WTS doesn't go so far as to say that the "anointed" are the mediators for the "great crowd", there is really no other conclusion to draw from their doctrine. Because, if Jesus is ONLY a mediator to God for the "anointed", then by extension, the "great crowd" must go through the "anointed" to Jesus who then acts as mediator to God.

    Ironically, in this same article the WTS parallel the Law Covenant with the New Covenant to support their doctrine. However, when we analyze the Law Covenant we notice the following:

    1. The Law Covenant was mediated by a priestly group (Levites).
    2. ALL of Israel was under the Law Covenant NOT just the priestly class.
    3. The Law Covenant was the ONLY arrangement that God provided for those who wanted to have his approval.

    This then begs the questions:

    1. "If the New Covenant replaced the Law Covenant who is the new mediator"
    Answer: Jesus (1 Tim 2:5)
    2. "If all of Israel was under the Law Covenant then why would ONLY a so-called priestly class (144K) be under the New Covenant?" and...
    3. "If the New Covenant is the ONLY means that God has provided for our salvation and the "Great Crowd" are not "in" this Covenant, what OTHER arrangement (according to the scriptures) has God provided for them?
    Answer: There is no other arrangement. We are either "in" the New Covenant or not.

    Ask a JW question 3 and watch them squirm! I recently asked my brother (a devout dub) this question and he wasn't even aware that the WTS taught that Jesus is not their mediator! This is a very sad doctrine!!
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    Did the Apostles and Disciples Pray to Jesus Christ?

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com ), January 18th 2003 (Updated March 27th 2003).

    The Watchtower Society forbids all Jehovah's Witnesses from praying to Jesus Christ!

    Insight on the Scriptures Book, Volume 2 (1988), Pages 667-668:

    Though some claim that prayer may properly be addressed to others, such as to God’s Son, the evidence is emphatically to the contrary. True, there are rare instances in which words are addressed to Jesus Christ in heaven. Stephen, when about to die, appealed to Jesus, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Ac 7:59) However, the context reveals a circumstance giving basis for this exceptional expression. Stephen at that very time had a vision of “Jesus standing at God’s right hand,” and evidently reacting as if he were in Jesus’ personal presence, he felt free to speak this plea to the one whom he recognized as the head of the Christian congregation. (Ac 7:55, 56; Col 1:18) Similarly, the apostle John, at the conclusion of the Revelation, says, “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” (Re 22:20) But again the context shows that, in a vision (Re 1:10; 4:1, 2), John had been hearing Jesus speak of his future coming and thus John responded with the above expression of his desire for that coming. (Re 22:16, 20) In both cases, that of Stephen and that of John, the situation differs little from that of the conversation John had with a heavenly person in this Revelation vision. (Re 7:13, 14; compare Ac 22:6-22.) There is nothing to indicate that Christian disciples so expressed themselves under other circumstances to Jesus after his ascension to heaven. Thus, the apostle Paul writes: “In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God.”—Php 4:6.

    __________________________________

    The Watchtower, December 15th 1994 Issue, Page 25:

    By not directing prayers to Jesus personally, we are not degrading his position. Rather, Jesus is honored when we pray in his name. And just as children honor their parents by being obedient, we honor Jesus Christ by obeying his commandments, especially the new commandment to love one another.—John 5:23; 13:34.

    ___________________________________

    What does the Bible say about praying TO Jesus?

    2nd Corinthians 12:8: Concerning this thing, I begged the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
    2nd Corinthians 12:9: He has said to me, "My grace [unearned favor and kindness] is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me.
    2nd Corinthians 12:10: Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong.

    Acts 7:59: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
    Acts 7:60: He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them!" When he had said this, he fell asleep [in death].

    1st John 5:11: The Testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    1st John 5:12: He who has the Son has the life. He who doesn't have God's Son doesn't have the life.
    1st John 5:13: These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the Name of the Son of God.
    1st John 5:14: This is the boldness which we have toward Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He listens to us.
    1st John 5:15: And if we know that He listens to us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of Him.

    1st Timothy 1:12: And I thank Him who enabled me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because He counted me faithful, appointing me to service;

    1st Corinthians 1:2: to the congregation of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints [holy ones], with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours

    Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
    Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him.
    Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."

    Revelation 22:20: He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amen! Yes, come, Lord Jesus.
    Revelation 22:21: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints [holy ones]. Amen.

    1st Corinthians 16:21: This greeting is by me, Paul, with my own hand.
    1st Corinthians 16:22: If any man doesn't love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. Come, Lord!
    1st Corinthians 16:23: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

    2nd Thessalonians 3:16: Now may the Lord of peace Himself give you peace at all times in all ways. The Lord be with you all.
    2nd Thessalonians 3:17: The greeting of me, Paul, with my own hand, which is the sign in every letter: this is how I write.
    2nd Thessalonians 3:18: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    2nd Corinthians 13:14: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen.

    Romans 1:7: to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints [holy ones]: Grace [unearned favor and kindness] to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Romans 16:20:...The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

    Romans 16:24: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all! Amen.

    Galatians 6:18: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

    Philippians 4:23: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    1st Thessalonians 1:1: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, to the Congregation of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [unearned favor and kindness] to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1st Thessalonians 5:28: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

    Philemon 1:25: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

    John 14:14: If you ask Me for anything in My Name, I will do it." (Watchtower's The Kingdom Interlinear Translation, New International Version, New American Standard Bible, International Standard Version, 1965 Bible in Basic English, Contemporary English Version, 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible, The Good News Bible, GOD'S WORD Translation, English Standard Version, Holman Christian Standard Bible, New Revised Standard Version, New Century Version)
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    Who is "The One who searches and examines the hearts and minds" of humans?

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com ), January 18th 2003 (Updated March 27th 2003).

    Revelation 2:23: ...all the congregations will know that I [Jesus] am the One who searches and examines the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

    Jeremiah 17:10: I, Jehovah, search and examine the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

    John 2:24: But Jesus didn't trust Himself to them, because He knew everyone,
    John 2:25: and because He didn't need for anyone to testify concerning man; for He Himself knew what was inside of men.

    John 21:17: ...[Peter] said to [Jesus], "Lord, You know everything...

    John 16:30: Now we know that You know all things, and don't need for anyone to question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God."

    Matthew 9:3: Behold, some of the Scribes said to themselves, "This Man blasphemes."
    Matthew 9:4: Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?

    Matthew 12:25: Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

    John 6:64: ...Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn't believe, and who it was who would betray Him.

    1st Kings 8:39: ...(for You [Jehovah], even You only, know the hearts of all the children of men;)

    1st Chronicles 28:9: ...Jehovah searches and examines all hearts, and understands all the imaginations of the thoughts: if you seek Him, He will be found of you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

    Psalm 7:9: ...Their minds and hearts are searched and examined by the Righteous God.

    1st Samuel 16:7: ...Jehovah sees not as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but Jehovah looks at the heart."
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    When did Jesus become The Christ?

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com ), January 28th 2003 (Updated March 27th 2003).

    The Watchtower Society says that Jesus became "The Christ" at His Baptism:

    The Watchtower, October 15th 1965 Issue, Page 619:

    32. And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water, and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Dy. See also John 1:29-34.

    33. There Jesus became the Christ, for there God his Father anointed him with the holy spirit. From then on he could be called Jesus Christ.
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    The Watchtower, November 1st 1967 Issue, Page 647:

    Jesus was anointed at his baptism in 29 C.E. and became the Christ or Messiah!
    -----------------------------------------------

    The Watchtower, April 15th 1972 Issue, Page 237:

    17. In order to symbolize his presenting of himself to act as the Seed of Gods woman, Jesus got baptized in water. Then God anointed him with holy spirit and so Jesus became the Christ or anointed one. Hence he was called Jesus Christ.--Luke 3:21-23.
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    "Holy Spirit - The Force Behind the Coming New Order" Book (1976), Page 90:

    "When did this Jesus become actually 'Christ the Lord'? Not on the eighth day of his birth, when he was circumcised. He was not anointed on that day. It was when he was thirty years old."

    Page 113:

    "Jesus was anointed with holy spirit after his baptism in water and he thus became Christ or Anointed One, so too with his disciples."
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    Insight on the Scriptures Book Volume 2, Page 70:

    "Insight" Book Volume 2, Page 70:

    Jesus had been Gods Son from the time of his birth, even as the perfect Adam had been the son of God. (Lu 3:38; 1:35) The angels had identified Jesus as Gods Son from his birth onward. So, when, after Jesus baptism, his Fathers voice was heard saying, You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you (Mr 1:11), it seems reasonable that this declaration accompanying the anointing flow of Gods spirit was more than just an acknowledgment of Jesus identity. The evidence is that Jesus was then begotten or brought forth by God as his spiritual Son, born again, as it were, with the right to receive life once more as a spirit Son of God in the heavens.--Compare Joh 3:3-6; 6:51; 10:17, 18

    Pages 1000-1001:

    "Jesus of course, continued to be God's son when born as a human, even as he had been in his prehuman existence...However, about 30 years after his birth as a human, when he was immersed by John the Baptizer, God's spirit came upon Jesus and God spoke, saying, 'You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you'...Evidently Jesus, the man, was then 'born again' to be a spiritual Son with the hope of returning to life in heaven, and he was anointed by spirit to be God's appointed king and high priest."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What does the Bible say?:

    Luke 2:10: The angel said to them, "Don't be afraid, for behold, I bring you Good News of great joy which will be to all the people.
    Luke 2:11: For there is born to you, this day, in the City of David, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    1st Corinthians 10:1: Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    1st Corinthians 10:2: and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    1st Corinthians 10:3: and all ate the same spiritual food;
    1st Corinthians 10:4: and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a Spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

    Matthew 2:2: "Where is He who is born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."
    Matthew 2:3: When Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
    Matthew 2:4: Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he asked them where the Christ would be born.

    That is amazing!

    The "Wise Men", and even the Pharisees, knew that He would be Born on Earth as the Christ and also the King of the Jews!

    Yet -- the Watchtower Leaders don't even teach this simple Biblical truth! How can they possibly be teaching the truth about more complex harder-to-understand things?

    So, that means either the "Astrologers" and the Pharisees knew more about the Scriptures than the Watchtower Leaders, OR it means that the Watchtower Leaders know the truth of the Scriptures, and they are intentionally lying and deceiving their followers.

    Either way, it's not a good thing.

    As a side-note:

    The Watchtower Society teaches that the "Star of Bethlehem" was put in the sky by Satan the Devil.

    Here are some interesting Scriptures about stars in connection with Christ:

    Numbers 24:17: I see Him, but not now; I see Him, but not near: There shall come forth a Star out of Jacob, A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, Shall strike through the corners of Moab, Break down all the sons of tumult.

    Malachi 4:2: But to you who fear My Name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in Its wings. You will go out, and leap like calves of the stall.

    Luke 1:78: Because of the tender mercy of our God, Whereby the Rising Sun from On High will visit us,
    Luke 1:79: To shine on those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death; To guide our feet into the way of peace."

    Revelation 22:16: I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you for the congregations. I am the Root and the Offspring of David; the Bright Morning Star."

    2nd Peter 1:19: We have the more sure Word of Prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns, and the Day Star arises in your hearts
    ____________________________________________

    Is Jesus Christ the same Person as Michael the Archangel [Chief Angel], as the Watchtower Society teaches?

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com ), January 22nd 2003 (Updated March 27th 2003).

    What does the Bible say?

    Here are ALL of the Scriptures that mention Michael the Archangel:

    Daniel 10:13: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    Notice: That Verse says that Michael is "one of the chief princes", which must mean that there are more than one "chief prince" LIKE Michael is.

    The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Unique, One-And-Only Begotten Son of the Father!

    Daniel 10:21: But I will tell you that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none who holds with me against these, but Michael your prince."

    Daniel 12:1: "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the Book.

    Notice: That Verse shows that Michael is the angel who "stands up" for the Jews. In other words, the angel who is assigned to protecting and helping faithful Israelites.

    Jude 1:9: But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the Devil and arguing about the body of Moses, did not dare bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"

    Notice: That Verse shows that Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan the Devil, but instead Michael said "May the Lord rebuke you!".

    Jesus Christ, the Lord of Heaven and Earth, who created Satan and all of the angels, while on Earth (after He had "emptied Himself" of glory, honor, and power), rebuked Satan and the demons several times, so if Jesus is Michael, why would He have LESS authority to rebuke Satan in Heaven than on Earth?

    Jesus while on Earth, prayed to the Father and asked that the Father restore the glory to Jesus that He had while in Heaven, so it seems obvious to me that Jesus had MORE authority while in Heaven, than on Earth.

    Also, in Jude 1:4 (in the oldest Manuscripts), it says that Jesus Christ is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master". Would the Bible say that a created angel, who did not even have the authority to rebuke a fallen angel in Heaven, is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"?

    Revelation 12:7: There was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels made war on the Dragon. The Dragon and his angels made war.
    Revelation 12:8: They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in Heaven.
    Revelation 12:9: The Great Dragon was thrown down, the Old Serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, the Deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the Earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    1st Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
    1st Thessalonians 4:17: then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

    Notice: The Watchtower Society likes to use that Verse to "prove" that Jesus is Michael.

    The Watchtower claims that since Jesus will descend from Heaven "with the voice of the archangel", it must mean that Jesus is the archangel!

    My response is: Jesus will also descend with "a shout" and "God's trumpet". Does that mean that Jesus is a shout? Does that mean that Jesus is a trumpet?

    Also, if that Verse was saying that Jesus was Michael, why didn't it read like this:

    "For the Lord Himself, the archangel, will descend from Heaven with a shout, with His voice, and with God's trumpet."

    Also, when you look up 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 in the New World Translation Reference Bible, it says that the "Lord" in those Verses is JEHOVAH -- So according to Watchtower Teachings, that means that JEHOVAH is Michael the Archangel!

    Hebrews 1:1: God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the Prophets at many times and in various ways,
    Hebrews 1:2: has at the end of these days spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
    Hebrews 1:3: His Son is the Radiance of His Glory, the Very Image of His Substance, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High;
    Hebrews 1:4: having become so much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent Name than they have.
    Hebrews 1:5: For to which of the angels did He say at any time, "You are My Son, Today have I become your Father?" and again, "I will be to Him a Father, And He will be to Me a Son?"
    Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He brings in the Firstborn into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
    Hebrews 1:7: Of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His servants a flame of fire."
    Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
    Hebrews 1:9: You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows."
    Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.
    Hebrews 1:11: They will perish, but You continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
    Hebrews 1:12: As a mantle You will roll them up, And they will be changed; But You are the same. Your years will not fail."
    Hebrews 1:13: But of which of the angels has He said at any time, "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies the footstool of Your feet?"
    Hebrews 1:14: Aren't they all ministering spirits, sent out to do service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

    The Bible says that Jesus Christ is Unique from created angels for several reasons:

    1: Jesus Christ is God Almighty, the Supreme Being [Omnipotent] (John 1:1-3; John 20:28-29; Hebrews 1:6, 1:8, 1:10; Psalm 45:6; Psalm 102:25; Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9)

    2: Jesus Christ is Eternal -- He has always existed and always will exist (Isaiah 9:6; 1st Thessalonians 6:14-16; Micah 5:2; Revelation 1:17; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 22:13; John 8:58)

    3: Jesus Christ created ALL things for Himself, including angels and humans, and the Heavens and the Earth (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17; Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 1:10)

    4: Jesus Christ knows all things and can read human minds and hearts [Omniscient] (Revelation 2:23; John 2:24-25; John 21:17)

    5: Jesus Christ is in more than one place at the same time [Omnipresent] (Matthew 18:20; Matthew 28:20; John 14:18-23; Acts 18:9-10)

    6: Jesus Christ resurrected Himself (John 2:19-22; John 10:17-18)

    7: Jesus Christ is Equal in Nature, Attributes, and Qualities with the Father (Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:6)

    8: Jesus Christ is prayed to as God (Acts 7:59-60; 1st Corinthians 1:2; 2nd Corinthians 12:8-10; 1st John 5:13-15)

    9: Jesus Christ is worshiped as God (John 5:23; Revelation 5:8-14; Hebrews 1:6)

    10: However, Jesus Christ is NOT The Father (John 14:28; John 14:24)

    11: However, Jesus Christ is NOT The Holy Spirit (John 14:16; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:13-14)

    12: The Father does have a "Greater" Position over Jesus, because Jesus willingly submits to The Father's final decisions (Philippians 2:6-8; Luke 22:42; John 14:28; 1st Corinthians 11:3; 1st Corinthians 15:24-28)

    Some More of My Comments:

    Michael is called "One of the Chief Princes".

    Jesus Christ is called KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS!

    Where does the Bible say that Jesus was "one of the chief princes" before He became Human? The only Verse that I know of which could be taken to mean that, is the one about Michael, but you would have to already have a pre-conceived belief that Michael was the Pre-Human Jesus in order to say that the Pre-Human Jesus was "one of the chief princes".

    Let me make an illustration:

    If I were to say "one of the chief Pharisees" would you think that I was talking about THE chief Pharisee?

    If I were to say "one of the chief demons" would you think that I was talking about THE chief demon?

    Jesus Christ is called the Only-Begotten and Unique Son of the Father, who is in the Bosom of the Father.

    In Hebrews Chapter 1 God The Father called Jesus Christ "God" and "Lord" ("Yahweh" in the Old Testament Scripture which was quoted by the writer of Hebrews).

    In Hebrews Chapter 1, God The Father said that Jesus Christ created Heaven and Earth.

    In Hebrews Chapter 1, God The Father commands all angels to worship Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews Chapter 1 says that God The Father NEVER said to ANY angel the following statements:

    "You are My Son, Today have I become your Father?"

    "I will be to Him a Father, And He will be to Me a Son?"

    "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies the footstool of Your feet?"

    So, what do YOU think -- is Jesus Christ Michael?
    __________________________________________

    I would love to hear your comments.

    I encourage everyone to ask any questions that you want to, and I encourage everyone to point out any mistakes I have made.

    I also welcome any and all attempts to refute the statements above -- please use the Bible when refuting any of my statements above.

    I want to make this very clear -- ALWAYS TEST EVERYTHING I SAY and make sure that it is in harmony with the Holy Scriptures. If it is not, then PLEASE let me know about it, and also DO NOT EVER believe what I say if it is not in harmony with the Bible.

    If there is anything that you want more information about that I posted, please let me know and I will be glad to help.

    Go to http://www.e-sword.net for COMPLETELY FREE BIBLE SOFTWARE!

    Or visit http://www.blueletterbible.org for Free Online Bibles!

    M gumby posted Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:55:00 GMT(3/27/2003)

    Post 2791 of 13036
    Joined 7/22/2001

    Like I've said before UD.....you need to shorten many of your posts and info. Waaaaaay tooooooooo much to read ( in one setting )

    Your last post on Amazings thread was an entire page long. I like your input and effort .......just try to condence things a bit

    stichione posted Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:27:00 GMT(3/28/2003)

    Post 280 of 420
    Joined 8/1/2002

    Hi Undisfellowshipped. Once again, you outdid yourself. I rather enjoy your detailed articles you post on this forum, and I for one encourage you to continue in your fine work. If others have a short attention span and can't spend more than a few seconds reading a text, thats their problem, not the rest of us. Keep it coming!

    M gumby posted Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:35:00 GMT(3/28/2003)

    Post 2799 of 13036
    Joined 7/22/2001

    If others have a short attention span and can't spend more than a few seconds reading a text, thats their problem, not the rest of us.

    Yes your right.......he gets more hits from those long posts than you can shake a stick at........see for yourself.

    Gumby

    F rebel posted Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:45:00 GMT(3/28/2003)

    Post 396 of 494
    Joined 11/27/2002

    This looks really interesting and must have taken you such a long time to compose.

    I will cut and paste it to a Word document because it is nearly 1 a.m. where I live and my eyes won't focus. I will read it some time tomorrow when I finish work. It seems pretty deep and I was never much of a Bible student. My eyes tended to glaze over when I used to attend meetings. I used to get really angry that we were being asked to look up the same scriptures time and again - and I felt so guilty for it.

    Now I realise they DO use the same scriptures, and only part of them taken out of context, so I don't feel so guilty now.

    Thanks for the info.

    xxR

    M gumby posted Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:47:00 GMT(3/28/2003)

    Post 2800 of 13036
    Joined 7/22/2001

    OK then...I'll keep my mouth shut.

    Gumby

    F rebel posted Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:52:00 GMT(3/28/2003)

    Post 397 of 494
    Joined 11/27/2002

    I agree with you, Gumby. It is a very long post - too long for someone with my mental stamina to read all in one go. That's why I always save them and print them off to read later. I can't read that much text off the screen - I need a hard copy - I must be getting old.

    xxR

    artful posted Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:59:00 GMT(3/28/2003)

    Post 157 of 174
    Joined 3/6/2002

    UD: Some great information here for those who are willing to take the time. I would like to add a scripture regarding praying to Jesus:

    ________
    Just the other night I was reading the account in Acts where Mathias was chosen to replace Judas. Here are a couple of verses that struck me as interesting:
    Acts1:
    21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs."

    Three things jump out at me:
    1. They have just referred to the "Lord Jesus".
    2. They then pray to the "Lord" to ask which one he has chosen.
    3. The original twelve were "chosen" by Jesus.
    Since the "Lord Jesus" chose the original twelve, and they proceed to pray to the "Lord", it would make sense to me that they were petitioning Jesus regarding a replacement and not the Father.
    This leads me to believe that in Acts 1:24 the disciples are praying to Jesus.

    Cheers
    Artful

    kylie posted Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:31:00 GMT(3/28/2003)

    Post 1 of 1
    Joined 3/25/2003

    UD:

    Just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed reading your post. I have been studying with Jehovah Witnesses for over 4 years now. When I agreed to a study I had no previous bible knowledge (to speak of) although I do believe in God. Anyway, I had no idea what I was getting into. Now I'm finding myself studying on my own, trying to find what I believe to be the truth with the help of God's holy spirit. It is possible to study the bible without other reading aides!

    F Dawn posted Sat, 29 Mar 2003 04:42:00 GMT(3/29/2003)

    Post 528 of 1390
    Joined 3/28/2002

    THANK YOU!!

    I cut/pasted this into my wordprocessor and printed it out. It will come in handy as I will be having some discussions with my family soon.

    JLOB posted Sat, 29 Mar 2003 05:35:00 GMT(3/29/2003)

    Post 27 of 34
    Joined 11/27/2002

    You have one small problem UD.

    JESUS was the Anti-Christ!

    What did the Christ say to the Devil when he spent 40 days in the desert? He rebuked the devil when the devil offered the world to him. The devil said he would have every knee bow down and worhip the Christ and the Christ pushed back against Satan. It was never the Christ intention to have the world worhip him.

    Also check out what Revelations says about the Anti-Christ... crown of thorns, speaking in tounges, healing the sick, quoting scripture....Sounds like JESUS.

    I think there is a distinct difference between JESUS and Christ.

    Just some food for thought.

    PS I think the points you made about JW's take on Jesus was well put and does a good job exposing their perverted view on JESUS and the Christ.

    M heathen posted Sat, 29 Mar 2003 07:15:00 GMT(3/29/2003)

    Post 1217 of 8126
    Joined 4/13/2001

    Undifellowshipped-- I agree , they miss the mark with what you posted. Jesus was not born with sin nor did he sin during his human existence so there would have been nothing corrupt about his flesh and another point that has been made on previous threads was the part where Jesus tells the pharisees " Tear down this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days." So what is the WT trying to say ? jesus raised his temple only to have jehovah vaporize it? Unbelievable the stupidity from them. JLOB-- Try reading the part when Jesus was resurected and then says he has all authority in heaven and on earth.

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:43:00 GMT(3/29/2003)

    Post 1396 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Thanks for all of your comments!

    I will try to reply to them soon.

    First, I am going to reply to JLOB's comments:

    JLOB said:

    You have one small problem UD.
    JESUS was the Anti-Christ!
    What did the Christ say to the Devil when he spent 40 days in the desert? He rebuked the devil when the devil offered the world to him. The devil said he would have every knee bow down and worhip the Christ and the Christ pushed back against Satan. It was never the Christ intention to have the world worhip him.

    What was the actual reason Jesus rebuked Satan?

    Matthew 4:8: Again, the Devil took Him [Jesus] to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory.
    Matthew 4:9: He said to Him, "I will give You all of these things, if You will fall down and worship me."
    Matthew 4:10: Then Jesus said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.'"

    So JLOB, basically you are saying that in order for you to believe that the Christ deserves to be worshiped, Christ would have had to worship Satan so He could take control of all the nations???

    Christ created Satan, Christ created all things and all people -- and are you trying to say that Christ does not deserve to be worshiped?

    If Christ did not desire worship, why did He say: "that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent Him." (John 5:23)

    JLOB said:

    Also check out what Revelations says about the Anti-Christ... crown of thorns, speaking in tounges, healing the sick, quoting scripture....Sounds like JESUS.

    I have not seen anywhere in Revelation where it says that anyone is wearing a "crown of thorns" or "speaking in tongues".

    I think this may be the Verse you are thinking of about the Anti-Christ wearing a crown:

    Revelation 6:2: And behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow. A crown was given to him, and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Some people believe that is the Anti-Christ, and some people believe that is the Christ in Revelation 6:2. But either way, it does not say he has a "crown of thorns".

    Also, where does the Bible say that Jesus spoke in tongues?

    JLOB said:

    I think there is a distinct difference between JESUS and Christ.
    Just some food for thought.

    Thanks for your comments, but I don't believe there is any difference whatsoever. Jesus is The Christ.

    JLOB said:

    PS I think the points you made about JW's take on Jesus was well put and does a good job exposing their perverted view on JESUS and the Christ.

    Thank You.

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Sat, 29 Mar 2003 12:37:00 GMT(3/29/2003)

    Post 1397 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Here is a new Article I just put together (whenever I write new Articles about Jesus in the future, I will post them on this Thread).

    Did the Apostles and Disciples Worship Jesus Christ in the Same Way they Worshiped The Father?

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com ), March 29th 2003.

    This gets interesting because the Watchtower Society used to teach Jehovah's Witnesses to worship Jesus Christ, even though they taught that Jesus was Michael, a created angel!

    The Watchtower, November 1879 (When Charles Taze Russell was President):

    "His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'"

    (NOTE: The Bracketed Comment about Michael was in the original Magazine)
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower Reprints, March 1880, Page 83 (When Charles Taze Russell was President):

    "And although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him (Jesus Christ), it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshipped him. - Matt. 28: 9, 17"
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower Reprints, April 15th 1893, Page 1515 (When Charles Taze Russell was President):

    "It is since his resurrection that the message has gone forth - 'All power in heaven and in earth is given unto me.' (Matt. 28:18) Consequently it is only since then that he could be called the Almighty (as in Rev. 1:8)"
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower Reprints, July 15th 1898, Page 2337 (When Charles Taze Russell was President):

    "Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God."
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower Reprints, May 15th 1892, Page 1410 (When Charles Taze Russell was President):

    "to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong"
    _____________________________________

    Zion's Watchtower July 15th 1898 Issue (When Charles Taze Russell was President):

    Worshipping Jesus Christ is a duty of the believers
    _____________________________________

    Studies in the Scriptures Volume 7 - The Finished Mystery (1917 Edition):

    Page 15:

    "....I am THE Alpha and I AM ALSO THE Omega. - Alpha is the first letter, and Omega the last letter, of the Greek alphabet. The Beginning and the Ending. -Our Lord's great honor is shown in that He was not only the first of God's creation, but the last. From this we are to understand that the great Jehovah did not directly employ His own power in creating either men or angels; but that He delegated His power to His Only-begotten Son. --Z. '93-115; Rev. 1:4; 16:5-7."

    Page 188:

    "Michael, - 'Who as God,' the Pope"

    Page 318:

    "....And He (said) SAITH unto me, (it is done,) I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.-" It was the Father's good pleasure that the Blessed One, the Only Begotten of the Father, should accomplish the entire program of redemption and restitution;"
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower, August 15th 1941 Issue, Page 252:

    "the Father will see to it that all creation shall worship the Son"
    _____________________________________

    Official Watchtower Society Charter, 1945:

    "The purposes of this Society are: To act as the servant of and the legal world-wide governing agency for that body of Christian persons known as Jehovah's Witnesses to preach the gospel of God's kingdom under Christ Jesus unto all nations as a witness to the name, word and supremacy of Almighty God JEHOVAH; to print and distribute Bibles and to disseminate Bible truths in various languages by means of making and publishing literature containing information and comment explaining Bible truths and prophecy concerning establishment of Jehovah's kingdom under Christ Jesus to authorize and appoint agents, servants, employees, teachers, instructors, evangelists, missionaries and ministers to go forth to all the world publicly and from house to house to preach and teach Bible truths to persons willing to listen by leaving with such persons said literature and by conducting Bible studies thereon to improve men, women and children mentally and morally by Christian missionary work and by charitable and benevolent instruction of the people on the Bible and incidental scientific, historical and literary subjects to establish and maintain private Bible schools and classes for gratuitous instruction of men and women in the Bible, Bible literature and Bible history; to teach, train, prepare and equip men and women as ministers, missionaries, evangelists, preachers, teachers and lecturers to provide and maintain homes, places and buildings for gratuitous housing of such students, lecturers, teachers and ministers; to furnish gratuitously to such students, lecturers, teachers, educators and ministers suitable meals and lodging and to prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature and for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus; ..."

    ______________________________________

    Make Sure of All Things Book (1953 Edition), Page 85:

    "Christ to Be Worshipped as a Glorious Spirit, Victorious over Death on the Torture Stake."
    _____________________________________

    Then, the Watchtower Society changes their mind, and says DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS!:

    The Watchtower January 1st 1954 Issue, Page 31:

    "Consequently, since the Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God, the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven."

    "prayer itself is addressed, not to Jesus, but to God his Father. "
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower, May 15th 1954 Issue, Page 318:

    So in the book of Hebrews pros·ky·ne´o is both times rendered “worship” and the angels of God are instructed to “worship” the glorified Jesus. Why is this? Because Jesus has been made so much higher than the angels, even higher than he was before he became a man on earth. (Phil. 2:5-11) It is the command of Jehovah God that they do this toward his Son.

    [...]

    Well, then, since the angels are commanded to worship the glorified Jesus at his second coming, should not we, who, as humans, are so much less than angels, likewise worship him? In answer we say, We must render to him what God’s Word says we must.

    At Revelation 19:10 and 22:9 the angel whom the glorified Jesus sent to the apostle John said to John: “Worship [pros·ky·ne´o] God,” meaning Jehovah God. Jesus’ angel (Rev. 1:1, 2; 22:16) told John, a man on earth, to worship, not Jesus, but God, Jehovah God the Father of Jesus. That is the One whom Jehovah’s witnesses worship.

    [...]

    And the angels of heaven obey the command of God and “worship” his Son only as their worship of the Son is related to the worship of his Father Jehovah God. But, keeping things in their relative positions, angels and Jehovah’s witnesses worship Jehovah God as the one Almighty God, uncreated, unbegotten, “from everlasting to everlasting.”—Ps. 90:2.
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower July 15th 1959 Issue, Page 421:

    "Do not erroneously conclude that Christians are to worship Christ; that is not what he taught."
    _____________________________________

    "The Word Who Is He? According to John" Book (1962 Edition):

    Pages 4-5:

    "Of course, the Bible reader who uses the generally accepted versions or translations will at once say; 'Why, there should be no difficulty about knowing who the Word is. It plainly says that the Word is God; and God is God.' But, in answer, we must say that not all our newer modern translations by Greek scholars read that way, So in the above-quoted Bible translations we are confronted with the expressions 'God' 'divine' 'god of a sort,' 'god, and 'a god,' Men who teach a triune God, Trinity, strongly object to the translation 'a god.'

    They say, among other things, that it means to believe in polytheism. Or they call it Unitarianism or Arianism."

    Page 40:

    "So again we note that Jesus never spoke of himself as God or called himself God. He always put himself below God rather than on an equality with God."
    _____________________________________

    Make Sure of All Things Book (1965 Edition):

    Page 485:

    "Jesus Christ Not One God with the Father

    "The Father is Jesus' God"

    "Jesus called his Father the "only true God," excluding himself"

    "Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son"

    Page 486:

    "Jesus is, not God, but Mediator between God and men"

    "Jesus did not claim to be God, but God's representative"

    "Jesus Not Equal to the Father in Power and Glory, but Subject to Him"

    "Even in heaven he is subject to the Father"

    "Only Jehovah Is from Everlasting to Everlasting"

    Page 487:

    "Son of God had a beginning, was created"

    "Oneness of Father and Son No More Mysterious than Unity of True Christians."
    ___________________________________

    The Watchtower, November 15th 1970 Issue, Page 703:

    As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether pro·sky·neo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship. Where reference is directly to God (John 4:20-24; 1 Cor. 14:25) or to false gods and their idols (Acts 7:43; Rev. 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God being understood. (John 12:20; Acts 8:27; Heb. 11:21) On the other hand, the action of those of the “synagogue of Satan” who are made to “come and do obeisance” before the feet of Christians is clearly not worship.—Rev. 3:9.

    [...]

    While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him. And the angel (or angels) of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as a “fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God.”—Acts 10:25, 26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9.

    Evidently Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ.” (Matt. 23:8-12) For it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Rev. 19:10) Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Luke 20:41-43; Matt. 12:42; Acts 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him.

    So, too, John, by virtue of having been declared righteous or justified by God as an anointed Christian, called to be a heavenly son of God and a member of his Son’s kingdom, was in a different relationship to the angel(s) of the revelation than were the Israelites to whom angels earlier appeared. As the apostle Paul had written: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” (1 Cor. 6:3) The angel(s) evidently recognized this change of relationship when rejecting John’s obeisance.

    On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Phil. 2:9-11; compare Daniel 7:13, 14, 27.

    In view of all this, how are we to understand Hebrews 1:6, which shows that even the angels render “worship” to the resurrected Jesus Christ? While many translations of this text render pro·sky·néo as “worship,” some render it by such expressions as “bow before” (The Bible—An American Translation) and “pay homage” (The New English Bible). No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.

    If the rendering “worship” is preferred, then it must be understood that such “worship” is only of a relative kind. For Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·ne?o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matt. 4:8-10; Luke 4:7, 8) True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps. 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ became the “reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb. 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.”—Rev. 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1 Chronicles 29:20; Revelation 5:13, 14.
    ____________________________________

    My Book of Bible Stories (1978), Story 86:

    Men Guided by a Star

    CAN you see that bright star one of these men is pointing to? When they left Jerusalem, the star appeared. These men are from the East, and they study the stars. They believe that this new star is leading them to someone important.

    When the men got to Jerusalem, they asked: ‘Where is the child who is to be king of the Jews?’ “Jews” is another name for Israelites. ‘We first saw the child’s star when we were in the East,’ the men said, ‘and we have come to worship him.’

    When Herod, who is king at Jerusalem, heard about this he got upset. He did not want another king to take his place. So Herod called the chief priests and asked: ‘Where will the promised king be born?’ They answered: ‘The Bible says in Beth´le·hem.’

    So Herod called the men from the East, and said: ‘Go make a search for the young child. When you find him, let me know. I want to go and worship him too.’ But, really, Herod wanted to find the child to kill him!

    Story 109:

    Cornelius has gathered together his relatives and close friends. When Peter comes, Cornelius meets him. He falls down and bows at Peter’s feet, as you see here. But Peter says: ‘Rise; I myself am only a man.’ Yes, the Bible shows that it is not right to bow down and worship a man. We should worship only Jehovah.
    ____________________________________

    Should You Believe in the Trinity Brochure (1989 Edition):

    Page 14:

    "Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was 'the first-born of all creation.' (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was 'the beginning of God's creation.' (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). 'Beginning' (Greek, ar-khe') cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the 'beginner' of God's creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek work ar-khe' more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of 'beginning.' Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God's invisible creations."

    Page 15:

    "The Bible calls Jesus the 'only-begotten Son' of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18: 1 John 4:9) Trinitarians say that since God is eternal, so the Son of God is eternal. But how can a person be a son and at the same time be as old as his father?"
    ____________________________________

    Reasoning From the Scriptures Book (1989), Pages 214-215:

    Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?

    At Hebrews 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB. NW says “do obeisance to.” At Matthew 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ; other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).

    The Greek word rendered “worship” is pro·sky·ne´o, which A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716) This is the term used at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus; at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus; at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah and at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business; at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.

    At Matthew 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from pro·sky·ne´o] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.” (At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is pro·sky·ne´o with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.
    _____________________________________

    The Watchtower, February 1st 1991 Issue, Page 17:

    "Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovah's chief angel, or archangel. On what basis do we reach that conclusion? Well, the prefix "arch," meaning "chief" or "principal," implies that there is only one archangel. God's Word speaks of him in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. We read: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) This archangel has a name, as we read at Jude 9: "When Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses' body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: 'May Jehovah rebuke you.'" In not running ahead of Jehovah by daring to bring judgment against the Devil, Jesus thus honored his heavenly Father."
    ____________________________________

    The Watchtower, January 15th 1992 Issue, Page 23:

    Hebrews 1:6 relates to Jesus’ position under God. (Philippians 2:9-11) Here some versions render pro·sky·ne´o “pay . . . homage” (The New English Bible), “do obeisance to” (New World Translation), or “bow before” (An American Translation). If one prefers the rendering “worship,” such worship is relative, for Jesus told Satan: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·ne´o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”—Matthew 4:8-10.

    Though Psalm 97:7, which speaks about worshiping God, was applied to Christ at Hebrews 1:6, Paul had shown that the resurrected Jesus is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Hebrews 1:1-3) So any “worship” the angels give God’s Son is relative and is directed through him to Jehovah.
    ____________________________________

    The Watchtower, November 1st 1993 Issue, Page 4:

    "Religious leaders of Christendom... replaced the name Jehovah with “God” (“Allah” in Arabic) and “Lord.” That contributed to the development of the false doctrine of the Trinity, which has no basis in the Holy Scriptures. Because of this, millions mistakenly worship Jesus and the holy spirit and consider them equal to God."

    Page 23:

    "In 1914, Jesus; the heavenly warrior Michael; became King of God's heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 11:15; 12:7-9)"
    ____________________________________

    The Watchtower February 1st 1994 Issue, Page 6:

    "The book of Revelation explains: "War broke out in heaven: Michael [the resurrected Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan], and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven."
    ____________________________________

    The Watchtower July 15th 1995 Issue, Page 5:

    "The Bible also describes what happened shortly after Jesus' enthronement. It says: "War broke out in heaven: Michael [Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan the Devil], and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven."
    ____________________________________

    Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life Book (1995 Edition):

    Page 32:

    "Others have distorted Jesus' role, worshipping him as Almighty God."

    Page 39:

    "Jesus was called God's 'only begotten Son' because Jehovah created him directly. (John 3:16) As 'the firstborn of all creation,' Jesus was then used by God to create all other things. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14)"
    ____________________________________

    The Watchtower November 1st 1995 Issue, Page 8:

    "The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is the archangel, Jesus Christ, also called Michael."
    ____________________________________

    Awake!, April 8th 2000 Issue, Pages 26-27:

    The Bible’s Viewpoint

    Is It Proper to Worship Jesus?

    THROUGHOUT the centuries, many in Christendom have worshiped Jesus Christ as if he were Almighty God. Jesus himself, however, directed attention and worship only to Jehovah God. For example, when prodded to do an act of worship to the Devil, Jesus said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matthew 4:10) Later Jesus instructed his disciples: “Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.”—Matthew 23:9.

    To a Samaritan woman, Jesus described the type of worship that individuals must give to God. Their worship must be based on spirit and truth. Indeed, “the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.” (John 4:23, 24) Yes, reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Galatians 5:19, 20.

    ‘But,’ some may counter, ‘does the Bible not indicate that we must also worship Jesus? Did Paul not say at Hebrews 1:6: “Let all the angels of God worship him [Jesus]”?’ (King James Version) How can we understand this scripture in the light of what the Bible says about idolatry?

    Worship in the Bible

    First, we have to understand what Paul meant here by worship. He used the Greek word pro·sky·ne´o. Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that this word literally means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’ An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man . . . or to God.” In Bible times pro·sky·ne´o often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature.

    Consider the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a substantial sum of money to his master. A form of this Greek word appears in this parable, and in translating it the King James Version says that “the servant therefore fell down, and worshipped [form of pro·sky·ne´o] him [the king], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matthew 18:26; italics ours.) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? Not at all! He was merely expressing the kind of reverence and respect due the king, his master and superior.

    Such acts of obeisance, or expressions of respect, were fairly common in the Orient of Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times upon meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph’s brothers prostrated themselves, or did obeisance, before him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when the astrologers found the young child Jesus, whom they recognized as “the one born king of the Jews.” As rendered in the King James Version, the account tells us that they “fell down, and worshipped [pro·sky·ne´o] him.”—Matthew 2:2, 11.

    Clearly, then, the word pro·sky·ne´o, rendered “worship” in some Bible translations, is not reserved exclusively for the type of adoration due Jehovah God. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. In an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, some Bible translations render the word pro·sky·ne´o at Hebrews 1:6 as “pay him homage” (New Jerusalem Bible), “honour him” (The Complete Bible in Modern English), “bow down before him” (Twentieth Century New Testament), or “do obeisance to him” (New World Translation).

    Jesus Is Worthy of Obeisance

    Is Jesus worthy of such obeisance? Most decidedly, yes! In his letter to the Hebrews, the apostle Paul explains that as the “heir of all things,” Jesus has “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.” (Hebrews 1:2-4) Thus, “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:10,11.

    Outstandingly, Christ will soon use this exalted position and the extensive executive powers that go with it to transform this earth into a global paradise. Under God’s direction, and as a result of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, he will rid the world of all sadness, pain, and sorrow for the benefit of those who submit to his righteous rule. Is he therefore not worthy of our honor, respect, and obedience?—Psalm 2:12; Isaiah 9:6; Luke 23:43; Revelation 21:3, 4.

    “A God Exacting Exclusive Devotion”

    The Bible clearly indicates, however, that our worship—in the sense of religious reverence and devotion—must be addressed solely to God. Moses described him as “a God exacting exclusive devotion.” And the Bible exhorts us to “worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.”—Deuteronomy 4:24; Revelation 14:7.

    Jesus certainly occupies a pivotal role in true worship, one worthy of honor and respect. (2 Corinthians 1:20, 21; 1 Timothy 2:5) He is the only way through which we are able to approach Jehovah God. (John 14:6) Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty.
    __________________________________________

    Check out the following changes in the Watchtower's Bible (New World Translation):

    New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1950, 1961, and 1970 Editions):

    Hebrews 1:6: "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him'

    COMPARE THAT WITH THIS:

    New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1971, 1980, and 1984 Editions):

    Hebrews 1:6: "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels do obeisance to him'
    --------------------------------------

    Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1985 Edition), Page 529:

    Reference to Jesus as "Ho Theos" (The God)

    COMPARE THAT WITH THIS:

    The Watchtower July 1st 1986 Issue, Page 31:

    "The title ho theos (the God, or God) which now designates the Father as a personal reality, is not applied in the N(ew) T(estament) to Jesus Himself."
    ____________________________________________

    What does the Bible actually say about Worshiping Jesus?

    Below are Scriptures (from the 1984 New World Translation) which show that Jesus Christ was indeed Worshiped by the Apostles and Disciples, as well as the angels and all Christians:

    Isaiah 9:6: For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God [Footnote: Mighty God of Times Indefinite], Eternal Father [Footnote: Father Forever], Prince of Peace.

    John 20:26: Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May you have peace.”
    John 20:27: Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.”
    John 20:28: In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”
    John 20:29: Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”

    John 5:21: For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.
    John 5:22: For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,
    John 5:23: in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
    John 5:24: Most truly I say to you, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.

    Revelation 5:8: And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones.
    Revelation 5:9: And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
    Revelation 5:10: and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
    Revelation 5:11: And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
    Revelation 5:12: saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”
    Revelation 5:13: And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.”
    Revelation 5:14: And the four living creatures went saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

    Below are Scriptures (which are NOT from the New World Translation) which show that Jesus Christ was indeed Worshiped by the Apostles and Disciples, as well as the angels and all Christians:

    Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He [The Father] brings in the Firstborn [Jesus] into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."

    Matthew 14:25: In the fourth watch of the night [3 AM to 6 AM], Jesus came to them, walking on the sea.
    Matthew 14:26: When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It's a ghost!" and they cried out for fear.
    Matthew 14:27: But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying "Cheer up! I AM! Don't be afraid."
    Matthew 14:28: Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the waters."
    Matthew 14:29: He said, "Come!" Peter stepped down from the boat, and walked on the waters to come to Jesus.
    Matthew 14:30: But when he saw that the wind was strong, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!"
    Matthew 14:31: Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand, took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
    Matthew 14:32: When they got up into the boat, the wind ceased.
    Matthew 14:33: Those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "You are truly the Son of God!"

    Matthew 28:7: Go quickly and tell His disciples, 'He has risen from the dead, and behold, He goes before you into Galilee; there you will see Him.' Behold, I have told you."
    Matthew 28:8: They departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.
    Matthew 28:9: As they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" They came and took hold of His feet, and worshiped Him.

    Luke 24:50: He [Jesus] led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands, and blessed them.
    Luke 24:51: It happened, while He blessed them, that He withdrew from them, and was carried up into Heaven.
    Luke 24:52: They worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
    Luke 24:53: and were continually in the Temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

    John 9:35: Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"
    John 9:36: He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"
    John 9:37: Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and it is He who speaks with you."
    John 9:38: He said, "Lord, I believe!" and he worshiped Him.

    Psalm 2:12: Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him.

    Joshua 5:13: It happened, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a Man over against him with His sword drawn in His hand: and Joshua went to Him, and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our adversaries?
    Joshua 5:14: He said, No; but as the Head of the Army of Jehovah I now come. Joshua fell on his face to the Earth, and did worship, and said to Him, What does my Lord say to His servant?
    Joshua 5:15: The Head of Jehovah's Army said to Joshua, Put off your shoe from off your foot; for the place on which you stand is Holy. Joshua did so.

    Exodus 3:2: The Messenger of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
    Exodus 3:3: Moses said, I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
    Exodus 3:4: When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses! Moses!" He said, "Here I am."
    Exodus 3:5: He said, "Don't come close. Take off your sandals from off your feet, for the place you are standing on is Holy Ground."
    Exodus 3:6: Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God.
    Exodus 3:7: Jehovah said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows.
    Exodus 3:8: I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey; to the place of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
    Exodus 3:9: Now, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me. Moreover I have seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them.
    Exodus 3:10: Come now therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh, that you may bring forth My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt."
    Exodus 3:11: Moses said to God, "Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?"
    Exodus 3:12: He said, "Certainly I will be with you. This will be the token to you, that I have sent you: when you have brought forth the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain."
    Exodus 3:13: Moses said to God, "Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you;' and they ask me, 'What is His Name?' What should I tell them?"
    Exodus 3:14: God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and He said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: "I AM has sent me to you."
    Exodus 3:15: God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My Name forever, and this is My Memorial to all generations.

    JLOB posted Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:11:00 GMT(3/30/2003)

    Post 28 of 34
    Joined 11/27/2002

    Heathen,

    The Christ raised from the dead and was resurected, I believe that firmly. Once again there is a difference between Christ and Jesus.

    UD,

    I appriciate you completely as well. I believe your heart and faith is in the right place. You are trying to teach the right lessons. We all can benifit from the lessons the real Christ taught us, but I also believe that many will learn to hate and miss the truth through fasly worshipping a man name Jesus.

    Good catch on the Desert conversation between Jesus and Satan. Satan did ask Jesus to worship him. Satan also showed us his plan, he wanted the world to worship Jesus. The Christ would have no part of that.

    I believe that there was a man that had the Christ so manisfested in him that he lived a sinless life. I belive that man died and was resureected. I believe that we all have the same Christ within us but are not nearly as faithful as that man was. That man served as a living example that it can be done, we all need to try to follow his lead.

    When the Christ was killed, GOD look down from Heaven and when he saw man he saw his own GLORY!. GOD saw that the faith of a man was complete and that man had GOD's power, GOD's Glory. Through Christ we all have that same power in us. Many now follow the teachings of Jesus and his deciples and learn the true power of GOD and become powerful loving people. Many have learn the truth about Christ and come to the same conclusion. There are many however who worship a man called Jesus and they never come to know the truth. They live thier lives hating, hating themselves and hating others, condeming what they do not understand, labeling as sin that which they can not gain power over. There are many confussed Christians who worship Jesus and know nothing about CHRIST.

    I do not think you are one of them. I since that you are Truth seeker and truley love GOD. You are only scratching at the surface- keep digging. Reread the new testimonts not for the story of Jesus but for the story of CHRIST.

    When I said that Jesus was the ANti-Christ I meant it. I do not think that everyone that follows Jesus follows Satan. I believe many are finding Christ and seeing a man called Jesus as the living embodiment of the Christ. I also believe that many professed christians have found Jesus, they worship Jesus, they follow mans teachings about Jesus, and they follow Satan to thier own demise.

    Jesus is not GOD. GOD is CHRIST. CHRIST is alive in everyone of us. Through the Christ in all of us we too are god's.

    With Love and Respect to you UD and evryone else that reads this.

    JLOB

    goofy posted Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:56:00 GMT(3/30/2003)

    Post 27 of 80
    Joined 2/28/2003

    I am very interested in learning more about Jesus away from Watchtower teachings, but man, I just can't keep my mind that attentive for such a long post. Please, make little posts and then I will read and think. Goofy

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Sun, 30 Mar 2003 12:26:00 GMT(3/30/2003)

    Post 1399 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Gumby and Goofy,

    I understand completely about not wanting to read such a huge post.

    Later today, I will post links where you can see much smaller Threads I have posted about the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Also, here is a small list of very important Scriptures which prove that Jesus Christ deserves to worshiped and prayed to as God Almighty:

    1: Jesus Christ is God Almighty, the Supreme Being [Omnipotent] (John 1:1-3; John 20:28-29; Hebrews 1:6, 1:8, 1:10; Psalm 45:6; Psalm 102:25; Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9)

    2: Jesus Christ is Eternal -- He has always existed and always will exist (Isaiah 9:6; 1st Timothy 6:14-16; Micah 5:2; Revelation 1:17; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 22:13; John 8:58)

    3: Jesus Christ created ALL things for Himself, including angels and humans, and the Heavens and the Earth (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17; Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 1:10)

    4: Jesus Christ knows all things and can read human minds and hearts [Omniscient] (Revelation 2:23; John 2:24-25; John 21:17)

    5: Jesus Christ is in more than one place at the same time [Omnipresent] (Matthew 18:20; Matthew 28:20; John 14:18-23; Acts 18:9-10)

    6: Jesus Christ resurrected Himself (John 2:19-22; John 10:17-18)

    7: Jesus Christ is Equal in Nature, Attributes, and Qualities with the Father (Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:6)

    8: Jesus Christ is prayed to as God (Acts 7:59-60; 1st Corinthians 1:2; 2nd Corinthians 12:8-10; 1st John 5:13-15)

    9: Jesus Christ is worshiped as God (John 5:23; Revelation 5:8-14; Hebrews 1:6)

    10: However, Jesus Christ is NOT The Father (John 14:28; John 14:24)

    11: However, Jesus Christ is NOT The Holy Spirit (John 14:16; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:13-14)

    12: The Father does have a Greater Position over Jesus, because Jesus willingly submits to The Father's final decisions (Philippians 2:6-8; Luke 22:42; John 14:28; 1st Corinthians 11:3; 1st Corinthians 15:24-28)

    I can post any of those Scriptures upon request.

    Thanks for your comments and your interest in reading about Jesus Christ, the Lord of all things!

    M rocketman posted Sun, 30 Mar 2003 12:56:00 GMT(3/30/2003)

    Post 251 of 3887
    Joined 12/7/2002

    I might be able to comment, but these posts are way long. One quick thought though - all this proves to me is that the Bible can be understood in a variety of ways. In fact, to me, many of its statements seem contradictory. And if they are not, then it seems some verses must be almost disregarded or understood in some other way than what they appear to say on their own.

    M MacHislopp posted Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:10:00 GMT(3/30/2003)

    Post 1461 of 1694
    Joined 2/27/2001

    Hello Undisfellowshiped,

    just a huge thank, for the excellent research, with all

    the clear and logical quotes. To be kept on the files.

    Just onfurter comment: I would post them, by

    the title/full subjetc that you gave at the beginning

    of each research. I'm sure that it would, on the long

    run, prove an easier for research purpose.

    Thanks again,

    J.C.MacHislopp

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:23:00 GMT(4/4/2003)

    Post 1410 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Thanks for all your comments.

    I apologize for the huge size of this Thread -- but that is the main point of this particular Thread -- to put all of my Threads about Jesus together for research purposes.

    I will post links to the smaller individual Threads about Jesus soon.

    JLOB said:

    The Christ raised from the dead and was resurected, I believe that firmly. Once again there is a difference between Christ and Jesus.

    UD,

    I appriciate you completely as well. I believe your heart and faith is in the right place. You are trying to teach the right lessons. We all can benifit from the lessons the real Christ taught us, but I also believe that many will learn to hate and miss the truth through fasly worshipping a man name Jesus.

    Good catch on the Desert conversation between Jesus and Satan. Satan did ask Jesus to worship him. Satan also showed us his plan, he wanted the world to worship Jesus. The Christ would have no part of that.

    Satan's plan was for Jesus Christ to worship Satan. In order to tempt Jesus Christ, Satan offered Jesus all of the kingdoms of the world, IF, and ONLY IF, Jesus Christ would worship Satan.

    We need to look at the context.

    Satan also tempted Jesus Christ by telling Jesus that He should turn the rocks into bread -- was eating bread a sin? No. It would have been a sin because if Jesus had done what Satan told Him to do, then Jesus Christ would have, in essence, been serving Satan!

    In the same way, there most certainly was nothing wrong with people worshiping Jesus Christ -- the thing that was wrong was worshiping Satan!

    JLOB said:

    I believe that there was a man that had the Christ so manisfested in him that he lived a sinless life. I belive that man died and was resureected. I believe that we all have the same Christ within us but are not nearly as faithful as that man was. That man served as a living example that it can be done, we all need to try to follow his lead.

    When the Christ was killed, GOD look down from Heaven and when he saw man he saw his own GLORY!. GOD saw that the faith of a man was complete and that man had GOD's power, GOD's Glory. Through Christ we all have that same power in us. Many now follow the teachings of Jesus and his deciples and learn the true power of GOD and become powerful loving people. Many have learn the truth about Christ and come to the same conclusion. There are many however who worship a man called Jesus and they never come to know the truth. They live thier lives hating, hating themselves and hating others, condeming what they do not understand, labeling as sin that which they can not gain power over. There are many confussed Christians who worship Jesus and know nothing about CHRIST.
    I do not think you are one of them. I since that you are Truth seeker and truley love GOD. You are only scratching at the surface- keep digging. Reread the new testimonts not for the story of Jesus but for the story of CHRIST.

    Thanks for your comments.

    There are some major problems I have with what you said.

    First of all, if Jesus is not The Christ, then we all need to throw away the entire New Testament, because it is all full of lies!

    Matthew 1:1: The Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham.

    Matthew 1:18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was like this; for after His mother, Mary, was engaged to Joseph, before they came together, she was found pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

    Matthew 2:4: Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he asked them where the Christ would be born.

    Matthew 16:13: Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
    Matthew 16:14: They said, "Some say John the Baptizer, some, Elijah, and others, Jeremiah, or one of the Prophets."
    Matthew 16:15: He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
    Matthew 16:16: Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
    Matthew 16:17: Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in Heaven.

    Matthew 16:20: Then He [Jesus] charged the disciples that they should tell no one that He is Jesus the Christ.

    Matthew 24:4: Jesus answered them, "Be careful that no one leads you astray.
    Matthew 24:5: For many will come in My Name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will lead many astray.

    Mark 1:1: The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

    Mark 8:27: Jesus went out, with His disciples, into the villages of Caesarea Philippi. On the way He asked His disciples, "Who do men say that I am?"
    Mark 8:28: They told Him, "John the Baptizer, and others say Elijah, but others: one of the Prophets."
    Mark 8:29: He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ."
    Mark 8:30: He charged them that they should tell no one about Him.

    Mark 14:61: But He stayed quiet, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"
    Mark 14:62: Jesus said, "I AM. You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of the sky."

    Luke 2:11: For there is born to you, this day, in the city of David, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    Luke 2:26: It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
    Luke 2:27: He came in the Spirit into the Temple. When the parents brought in the Child, Jesus, that they might do concerning Him according to the custom of the Law,
    Luke 2:28: then he received Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,
    Luke 2:29: "Now You are releasing Your servant, Master, According to Your Word, in peace;
    Luke 2:30: For my eyes have seen Your Salvation,
    Luke 2:31: Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples;
    Luke 2:32: A Light for revelation to the Gentiles, And the Glory of Your people Israel."

    Luke 4:41: Demons also came out from many, crying out, and saying, "You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Rebuking them, He [Jesus] didn't allow them to speak, because they knew that He was the Christ.

    Luke 9:20: He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "The Christ of God."

    John 1:41: He first found his own brother, Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah!" (which is, being interpreted, Christ).
    John 1:42: He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is by interpretation, Peter).

    John 4:25: The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah comes," (He who is called Christ). "When He has come, He will declare to us all things."
    John 4:26: Jesus said to her, "I am He, the One who speaks to you."

    John 4:42: They said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

    John 6:68: Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the Words of eternal life.
    John 6:69: We have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

    John 11:27: She said to Him, "Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that You are the Christ, God's Son, He who comes into the world."

    John 20:31: but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His Name.

    So, if Jesus is not The Christ, the entire New Testament is a lie!

    I'm going to go with the New Testament.

    I don't know where you have come up with your beliefs, but it cannot be the New Testament.

    JLOB said:

    When I said that Jesus was the ANti-Christ I meant it. I do not think that everyone that follows Jesus follows Satan. I believe many are finding Christ and seeing a man called Jesus as the living embodiment of the Christ. I also believe that many professed christians have found Jesus, they worship Jesus, they follow mans teachings about Jesus, and they follow Satan to thier own demise.

    Jesus is not GOD. GOD is CHRIST. CHRIST is alive in everyone of us. Through the Christ in all of us we too are god's.

    With Love and Respect to you UD and evryone else that reads this.

    Please let me know who and where you got all of this information from, because it is not from the Bible.

    The statement "We are all gods" is the original lie that Satan told Eve -- "Eat this fruit and you will become just like God".

    From what I gather, you also reject and deny the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    The Bible makes it clear that if you do not believe in the Sacrifice of Jesus The Christ, "you will die in your sins".

    John 8:24:

    I [Jesus] said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

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