RESEARCH ON TORTURE STAKE vs. CROSS

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    Nanoprobe posted Tue, 10 Sep 2002 03:06:00 GMT(9/10/2002)

    Post 206 of 251
    Joined 5/18/2002

    Sarah

    Thank you for posting this information.

    Everyone else: It's 31 pages, print it out it's worth the read.

    The Alchemist posted Tue, 10 Sep 2002 03:20:00 GMT(9/10/2002)

    Post 213 of 242
    Joined 5/7/2002

    Thanks for the info. It's being printed out as I write this. Got a half in half out JW friend who will be interested in this. Thanks again.

    ChristianObserver posted Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:38:00 GMT(9/10/2002)

    Post 112 of 254
    Joined 2/25/2002

    Thanks very much for the link :o)

    That was a good and well researched document!

    chester posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:51:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

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    Joined 4/8/2001

    Sarah,

    Thanks for posting that. It is a wonderful paper. A lot of work went into that and it is definitely worth the read even if it is not printed out.

    I saved it.

    Thanks for posting the information.

    Chester

    F jgnat posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:10:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

    Post 210 of 24581
    Joined 7/4/2002

    I read the whole thing. Thank you for doing this. I can see further significance of a well-researched article on this subject, than the one you mentioned. The witnesses put a lot of stake in the accuracy and truth of their biblical research compared to the rest of "christendom". The supposedly "pagan" practices of all other religious groups are regularly used as evidence that these religions are "false". Display of a single cross, or a belief in the cross by a householder is enough to convince a visiting witness that they are talking to an ignorant "pagan", and no serious thought has to be given to their other beliefs.

    F plmkrzy posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:31:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

    Post 3251 of 5673
    Joined 1/13/2002

    Sarah

    That certainly is a lot of reasearch you have done. Thanks for posting it so we can all read it.

    One question popped in my mind as I was reading through all of your reasearch, I wonder if you would address it?

    If you were asked to present poof of christs existance, what parts of this research would you reference and how would you present this information as evidence?

    F butalbee posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:57:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

    Post 1570 of 1557
    Joined 8/29/2001

    Thanks!! Very much appreciated.

    Dazed posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 05:03:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

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    Joined 9/5/2002

    I applaud your research, a very well thought out and informative dissertation. However, I have a question or two of curiosity.

    If the torture stake WAS a cross, would it change the purpose of Jesus' death, or mankind's guaranteed salvation?

    If the cross WAS a torture stake, would it change the purpose of Jesus' death, or mankind's guaranteed salvation?

    Oh, and one more question, what was the literal translation given at the beginning of your document?

    I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but if you wish to criticize JW's, or any religion for that matter, the subject of contention should be, in fact, contentious. Who cares if Jesus died strapped to a VW bug, he still died for our sins (or whatever wording you wish to insert at this point that has the same meaning), and the "dubs" agree in that respect.

    Peace.

    Dazed...and thoroughly confused.

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:36:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

    Post 99 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Dazed said:

    If the torture stake WAS a cross, would it change the purpose of Jesus' death, or mankind's guaranteed salvation?

    Answer: NO!

    If the cross WAS a torture stake, would it change the purpose of Jesus' death, or mankind's guaranteed salvation?

    Answer: NO!

    However, since the Watchtower LOVES to make a HUGE ISSUE out of the Cross not being True, and they also CONDEMN Christian Religions for using the "Pagan" Cross.

    I haven't gotten to read that Website that was Posted at the top of this Thread yet, but I am planning to soon!

    Also, here is an interesting Scripture (from the American Standard Version):

    John 20:25: The other Disciples therefore said to him (the Apostle Thomas), We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the NAILS, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.

    So, there was definitely more than one nail in Jesus Christ's hands.

    This does not necessarily prove one way or the other, but the Society ALWAYS shows Jesus only having ONE NAIL through both hands.

    Leolaia posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:56:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

    Post 15 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002
    If you were asked to present poof of christs existance, what parts of this research would you reference and how would you present this information as evidence?

    Gosh, that is a whole different kettle of fish that appeals to a different body of evidence. I don't know how I would present the evidence. I would suppose I would not just examine extrabiblical and biblical statements on Jesus, but also examine the likelihood a purely legendary or mythical figure with no prior history would suddenly become the center of a new Jewish-Gentile faith (imho very, very unlikely).

    Leolaia

    Leolaia posted Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:14:00 GMT(9/11/2002)

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    Joined 9/1/2002
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but if you wish to criticize JW's, or any religion for that matter, the subject of contention should be, in fact, contentious. Who cares if Jesus died strapped to a VW bug, he still died for our sins (or whatever wording you wish to insert at this point that has the same meaning), and the "dubs" agree in that respect.

    I dealt with this at the end of the paper. Yes, indeed, it is an insignificant issue in the long run. It makes no difference in Christ's redemptive sacrifice. But you're missing the point. It is the Society that makes such a big deal about it. It is the Society that made false statements about the evidence. For someone who once believed the Society could be trusted for providing truthful information, I was quite disturbed by lack of honesty. This lack of honesty of course extends to other more pressing issues such as the "proof" that we are in "the last days" (i.e. the earthquake evidence) and the Trinity (another area where I was very disturbed by their complete lack of honesty). I am merely showing how they exaggerate and outright lie about the evidence for such a seemingly insignificant belief. Further, I provide a clear example of why it is fallacious to always insist on the most restricted, etymological, or basic meaning. This insistence is at the basis of so many central doctrines of the Witnesses, i.e. sheol and hades mean only "grave," parousia most basically means "presence," kolasin most basically means "cutting-off," etc. etc. I give a concrete example of why this approach is wrong-headed.

    So indeed I don't feel the study was a waste of time.

    Leolaia

    M Alf3831 posted Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:53:00 GMT(9/12/2002)

    Post 14 of 43
    Joined 10/9/2001

    I understand that there is a book that is soon to be released, defending passages translated in the New World Translation. This was written by several scholarly JW authors. I believe it has an essay on the "torture stake." You should keep an eye out for it, as it may be released within the next few weeks. I am sure you will find it interesting.

    Sincerely,

    Alf3831

    unblinded posted Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:31:00 GMT(9/12/2002)

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    Joined 9/11/2002

    Is this the Alf I taked to on paltalk about a month ago?

    Do you support the idea of Jesus dieing on a cross or a torture stake?

    F plmkrzy posted Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:12:00 GMT(9/12/2002)

    Post 3283 of 5673
    Joined 1/13/2002
    purely legendary or mythical figure with no prior history would suddenly become the center of a new Jewish-Gentile faith (imho very, very unlikely).

    Well actually some believe that Jesus was nothing more then another prophet like Abraham and NOT a saviour. I guess that would be my point. Not that he was alive but that he was Christ. What i'm saying is that it all will boil down to what one believes more so then what one may attempt to show proof of. Especially when the subject is biblical

    stichione posted Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:47:00 GMT(9/13/2002)

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    Joined 8/1/2002

    Excellent information which will be useful to many people. Keep up the good work!

    M Alf3831 posted Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:37:00 GMT(9/13/2002)

    Post 15 of 43
    Joined 10/9/2001

    Unblinded,

    It has been awhile since I was on paltalk. But I do use this "handle" on paltalk. I have not read the individuals research paper on the difference between the torture stake vs the cross. Personally, I dont think it matters much either way.

    Sincerely,
    Alf3831

    BugParadise posted Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:00:00 GMT(9/15/2002)

    Post 186 of 203
    Joined 5/4/2002
    Leolaia: If anyone is interested on finding out the facts about the cross
    and why "torture stake" is NOT an accurate translation for
    Greek _stauros_, please see my research paper on this topic:

    Excellent research Paper!! Gets a A ++ and a 5* star rating! Thanks for sharing it!

    aChristian posted Mon, 16 Sep 2002 03:46:00 GMT(9/16/2002)

    Post 546 of 539
    Joined 3/10/2001

    Leolaia,

    Very fine article. A+. By the way, are you aware of the medical evidence that Jesus could not have died on a "torture stake"? The fact is, it has been medically proven more than once that the way Jesus' execution is depicted in Watchtower publications would have killed him in only a few minutes, not a few hours as the Bible tells us Christ remained alive after being nailed to the Cross.

    According to an article written by Frederick T. Zugibe published in Bible Review magazine in April of 1989, entitled "Two Questions About Crucifixion," in 1948 an Austrian doctor demonstrated that if you hang a person with his hands straight up he will die from suffocation within about six minutes. This article says that this fact has been confirmed a number of times, most recently by a professor of pathology with the University of Columbia. His series of experiments is said to have also demonstrated that if the person is nailed with his arms outright in an angle of 60-70 degrees, he can live for several hours.

    Somewhat off the subject, his work is said to have also proven that it is possible to successfully crucify a person by nailing through their hands, not necessarily through their wrists as has been alledged in recent years.

    Again, you wrote a great article! Thanks. The Watchtower Society should be ashamed of their dishonesty. In this matter and in many others. : (

    F Celia posted Tue, 01 Oct 2002 01:25:00 GMT(10/1/2002)

    Post 1177 of 2204
    Joined 3/18/2001

    Help ! I can't open the file !

    What am I doing wrong ? I get this screen, asking what I want to do with the file :

    Open from its current location or save to disk.

    I tried both, can't open it

    Edited by - Celia on 30 September 2002 21:25:36

    chester posted Tue, 01 Oct 2002 02:10:00 GMT(10/1/2002)

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    Joined 4/8/2001

    Celia,

    That is an adobe acrobat file. You have to have adobe installed on your computer to be able to read it.

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