JESUS CHRIST - ALPHA AND OMEGA

Hi OHappyDay,

Here is a Link to Information about the "Literal Translation of the Holy Bible" (LITV):

http://www.kconline.com/paul/litv/litv.htm

Also, check out this Website for AMAZING ABSOLUTELY FREE BIBLE SOFTWARE with 20 English Bibles (including the "Literal Translation of the Holy Bible") and over 19 Bibles in other Languages, PLUS 10 Bible Commentaries, PLUS 11 Bible Dictionaries, PLUS Bible Graphics, Devotions, and MORE!

http://WWW.E-SWORD.NET

P.S. Here is a list of Bible Translations that I know of, which use the Name "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" throughout the Old Testament:

1901 American Standard Version - Jehovah

1889 Darby Translation - Jehovah

Literal Translation of the Holy Bible - Jehovah

Modern King James Version - Jehovah

World English Bible - Yahweh

1898 Young's Literal Translation - Jehovah

1611 King James Version - Uses Jehovah in a few Scriptures (Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2; Isaiah 26:4), uses "The LORD" in most Scriptures

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 5 September 2002 22:13:35

I think what you ask is why some translations use LORD and some Jehovah?</P>
<P>They are both right, Jehovah is the english rendering of the translation YAWEH</P>
<P>which is a guess at best since in the hebrew the vowel's are inferred

I read your link... I've never read more verbal bible gymnastics than this one.

I think all records where broken on the worst out of context and inferred verses in history

"JesusLord" said:

I'm not sure I understand these comments, please clarify. Thanks for Posting!

HERE IS A LIST OF QUOTES FROM THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY ABOUT WHETHER IT WAS JEHOVAH (THE FATHER) OR JESUS (THE SON) SPEAKING IN REVELATION 22:12-13:

These Quotes are from the WT QUOTES Great Website at http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com and also from a Cool Website at http://www.geocities.com/le_thanh_y/rev22_12.htm (Thanks to jwsons for Posting the Link!)

*** The Watchtower January 1st 1953 Issue, Page 31 "Questions from Readers"***

Is Revelation 22:13 also referring to Christ? The context sounds like it, yet the Watchtower publications say Jehovah is the "Alpha and the Omega". Why? J. J., New Jersey.

Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and omega is the last; one is the beginning and the other the end of the Greek alphabet. So the expressions "the Alpha and the Omega" and "the first and the last" and "the beginning and the end" are parallel expressions and mean the same thing. They are applied to Jehovah God. Isaiah 44:6 (AS) reads: "Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God." Revelation 1:8 (NW) catches up this thought in Isaiah and adds to it the point that he is coming: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God, the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty."

So just because the verse preceding Revelation 22:13 speaks of that "Alpha and Omega" as coming does not necessarily mean it refers to Christ Jesus, whose second coming is frequently mentioned. Revelation 1:8 shows Jehovah as coming, and so Revelation 22:12 may do likewise. He comes representatively, through Christ Jesus.

*** The Watchtower February 15th 1954 Issue, Page 121 Jehovah's "Book of Remembrance" ***

6. Along exactly similar lines, the record at Malachi 3:16-18 shows that the faithful, loyal and devoted servants of Jehovah can have strong assurance respecting his favor and reward in this judgment day. (Ps. 62:12, AS; Rev. 22:12, NW) There is not the slightest possibility that a single one of those servants will be overlooked at that time, right now, when Jehovah is deciding who belong to him in that day when I make up my jewels [special treasure].Mal. 3:17, margin.

*** The Watchtower July 1st 1955 Issue, Page 387 Christ's Coming an Academic Question? ***

Jesus associated his return with the rewarding of his followers. Said he: "If I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be." And again: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." Paul understood it this way, for he wrote: "I have fought the right fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but to all those who have loved his manifestation."-John 14:3; Rev. 22:12; 2 Tim. 4:7, 8, NW.

*** Babylon the Great has Fallen Book (1963), Pages 672-673 Invitation to Drink "Water of Life" ***

Jesus Christ as Judge merely executes the judgments of the Highest Judge, Jehovah God the Almighty, the Judge of all. Jehovah God is the Court of final resort, and there is no appeal from his judicial decisions. He is the Alpha and Omega, figuratively speaking. (Revelation 1:8) So in Malachi 3:1-5 it is chiefly his coming suddenly to the temple for judgment work that is prophetically spoken of. The war of the great day that is just ahead is the war of God the Almighty for executing judgment upon his foes. Hence now, in his turn, he speaks as the Source and Giver of the revelation. Here are Gods words that the apostle John heard:

Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie. Revelation 22:12-15.

*** The Watchtower November 15th 1967 Issue, Page 680 Make Up Your Mind Now as to Whom You Will Serve ***

Jehovah God himself next speaks to John, revealing the critical situation, the extreme danger if any one of God's anointed ones becomes lax in the least way toward righteousness. Jehovah says: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is."-Rev. 22:12.

*** The Watchtower December 1st 1967 Issue, Pages 731-732 An Invitation Is Extended to You ***

INVITATION SOON TO CEASE

The apostle John, who saw the vision about nineteen hundred years ago, next records something that may at first seem strange. He writes: He that bears witness of these things says, Yes; I am coming quickly. Amen! Come, Lord Jesus. (Rev. 22:20) This is the fifth time in the Revelation that Jesus Christ says that he is coming quickly. His coming accompanies Jehovah God, who also said: I am coming quickly. (Rev. 2:5, 16; 3:11; 22:7, 20 and 12) This does not mean that Jesus Christ is not present in Kingdom power, gathering his bride and the great crowd; rather, the emphasis here is on the word quickly; and it is in connection with the war of the great day of God the Almighty that the Lord Jesus Christ warns that he is coming as a thief.Rev. 16:15.

*** Awake! April 8th 1975 Issue, Pages 11-12 A Government That Will Free Mankind ***

Tested, Qualified Rulers

What about the selection of king-priests in Gods government, his heavenly kingdom? The manner in which persons attain a position of rulership in that Kingdom is altogether different from what has been true of the worlds governments. The Bible clearly shows that social standing, education, rank, worldly fame, money and the like will not buy a place in that government. (1 Cor. 1:26, 27) No one can campaign for the position. The individual must be tested for the office. Under difficult circumstances, he must prove that he is a person of integrity and more concerned about the welfare of others than his own. (Acts 14:22; 1 John 3:16-18) Jehovah God, who can read the motivations of the heart, is the One who determines whether the individual measures up to the needed qualifications.1 Sam. 16:7; John 6:44; 2 Thess. 1:11; Rev. 22:11-15.

*** The Watchtower November 15th 1976 Issue, Page 700 A Revelation-of Jehovah's Will and Purposes ***

Again, those observing the words of this prophecy are pronounced happy. Then the invitation is given to all who hear to take the water of life free. And those who would add to or take away from the words of this prophecy are warned of the consequences. Upon hearing Jesus promising to come quickly, John replies, Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.Rev. 22:7-21.

*** Awake! August 22nd 1978 Issue, Pages 27 and 28 Who Is "the Alpha and the Omega"? ***

While Jesus Christ is referred to in the previous verse as coming with the clouds, the words of Revelation 1:8 and the surrounding verses show that he could not be the Alpha and the Omega. In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as the Lord God and as the Almighty. Jesus Christ even refers to his Father as my God. (John 20:17; Rev. 3:12) According to Revelation 1:1, the revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God. Hence, we should expect the words of the Almighty God to be quoted in the account. The first reference to the Alpha and the Omega is manifestly an example of this. Moreover, in the very next verse, the writer of the book of Revelation, the apostle John, says: I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus. (Rev. 1:9) This provides additional confirmation that John understood God to be the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In what sense is Jehovah God the One who is and who was and who is to come? Being the eternal God, Jehovah has at all times been the Almighty. (Ps. 90:2) So, in the indefinite past, he was the Most High. Furthermore, he continues to be the Almighty God and will come in that capacity to execute his judgment.
(.....) Since the context does not necessitate our attributing the words of Revelation 22:12, 13 either to the angel or to Jesus, they could have originated with another speaker. Consistent with the rest of the book of Revelation, "the Alpha and the Omega" must be the Almighty God. He is the One who comes in the capacity of a judge to reward and to punish individuals according to their works.

Finally, at Revelation 22:12, 13, we read: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." This quotation appears among others that are ascribed to an angel and to Jesus Christ. Before these words are quoted in the book of Revelation, the angel who was instrumental in presenting the revelation to the apostle John spoke. (Rev. 22:8, 9) Then, after the quotation that begins with Revelation 22:12 and ends with the words of verse 15, we find the statement: "I, Jesus, sent my angel." (Rev. 22:16) Since the context does not necessitate our attributing the words of Revelation 22:12, 13 either to the angel or to Jesus, they could have originated with another speaker. Consistent with the rest of the book of Revelation, "the Alpha and the Omega" must be the Almighty God. He is the One who comes in the capacity of a judge to reward and to punish individuals according to their works.

*** The Watchtower October 1st 1978 Issue, Page 15 "Keep on the Watch" ***

6. Also, in his final revelation concerning "the things that must shortly take place," Jesus again stresses the suddenness with which he comes: "I am coming to you quickly... I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have."-Rev. 2:16; 3:11.

"Look! I am coming quickly. . . . Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me.... Yes; I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20)

In response to these last expressions of our Master, surely each one of us joins with the apostle John in saying: "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."

*** The Watchtower May 1st 1983 Issue, Page 31 A Searching Look at Revelation ***

John is overwhelmed emotionally and wants to worship the agent who communicated the vision; but he is reproved. The prophecy is not to be sealed. Hearers of it are to invite others to take lifes water free. No one should add to or take away from the scroll. Jesus again reminds readers that he is coming quickly. John responds and concludes with a benediction upon the holy ones.22:8-21.

*** Reasoning from the Scriptures Book (1985 and 1988 Editions), Page 413 Trinity ***

But those brothers of Jesus are referred to as sons of God. (Gal. 3:26; 4:6) (4) At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in Re 22 verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it. (5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be the first and the last, which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression apostle is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title Alpha and Omega applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.

*** The Watchtower June 15th 1988 Issue, Page 20 Detest Utterly the World's Disgraceful Course ***

18. The Bible shows clearly that we are living in the final part of what it terms the conclusion of the system of things. (Matthew 24:3) Peter said the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7) When this long-awaited day of reckoning occurs, the claim that man can act independently of God and that his immoral, violent behavior is just a product of evolution will go up in smoke. (Colossians 3:5, 6)

Listen to how God himself describes, in his last recorded words in the Bible, the outcome for those who serve him and for those who do not: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.... Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."-Revelation 22:12-15.

*** Revelation -- Its Grand Climax At Hand Book (1988) ***

Page 20:

9. Now, wonder of wonders! The Sovereign Lord Jehovah himself speaks. How appropriate this is as a preface to the visions that are about to unfold, since he is our Grand Instructor and the ultimate Source of Revelation! (Isaiah 30:20) Our God declares: I am the Alpha and the Omega, . . . the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8) This is the first of three times in Revelation that Jehovah himself speaks from heaven. (See also Revelation 21:5-8; 22:12-15.) First-century Christians would quickly have recognized alpha and omega as the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Jehovahs calling himself by those two letters stresses that before him, there was no almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion, for all eternity, the issue of Godship. He will be forever vindicated as the one and only almighty God, Supreme Sovereign over all of his creation.Compare Isaiah 46:10; 55:10, 11.

Pages 316-317:

6. Jehovah, the King of eternity, now addresses readers of Revelation for the last time in the prophecy, saying: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."-Revelation 22:12-15.

7. Once again, Jehovah God emphasizes his eternal sovereignty and the fact that what he first purposes he will at last perform. He is coming quickly to execute judgment and will reward those earnestly seeking him. (Hebrews 11:6) His standards determine who will be rewarded and who will be rejected. The clergy of Christendom have acted like speechless dogs, winking at the vices that Jehovah here describes. (Isaiah 56:10-12; see also Deuteronomy 23:18, New World Translation Reference Bible, footnote.) Certainly, they have liked and carried on lying doctrines and dogmas and have totally ignored the counsel of Jesus to the seven congregations. Hence, they have no share in New Jerusalem

Page 319:

15. Jesus now adds a final word of encouragement: He that bears witness of these things says, Yes; I am coming quickly. (Revelation 22:20a) Jesus is the faithful and true witness. (Revelation 3:14) If he bears witness to the visions of Revelation, they must be true. Both he and Jehovah God himself repeatedly stress the fact that they are coming quickly, or soon, Jesus here saying that for the fifth time.(Revelation 2:16; 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20) The coming is to execute judgment on the great harlot, the political kings and all others who oppose the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ.Revelation 11:15; 16:14, 16; 17:1, 12-14.

*** The Watchtower December 1st 1999 Issue, Page 19 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation ***

18. In the book of Revelation, Jesus announces several times: "I am coming quickly." (Revelation 2:16; 3:11; 22:7, 20a) He must yet come to execute judgment on Babylon the Great, Satan's political system, and on all humans who refuse to submit to Jehovah's sovereignty, as now expressed by the Messianic Kingdom. We join our voices with that of the apostle John, who exclaimed: "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."-Revelation 22:20b.

19. Jehovah himself states: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." (Revelation 22:12) While awaiting the glorious reward of life without end as a part of either the promised "new heaven" or the "new earth," may we zealously join in extending the invitation to all honesthearted people: "'Come!' And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life's water free." (Revelation 22:17) May they also become happy readers of the inspired and inspiring book of Revelation!

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 5 September 2002 23:49:27

Ozzie said:

Thank You Ozzie! You are very correct! I agree completely -- we should indeed be proclaiming the Gospel, and in fact, I am going to start a new Thread on this very soon!

May God Bless you too Ozzie! :-)

To be fair, and to get both sides of the topic, I am now going to post some Scriptures which the Watchtower Society uses to disprove that Jesus was God Almighty, I would love to hear your comments on them:

Matthew 19:16: And, behold, coming near, one said to Him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:17: And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God! But if you desire to enter into life, keep the Commandments.

John 14:28: You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am Coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I.

John 10:33: The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.
John 10:34: Jesus answered them, Has it not been written in your Law, "I said, you are gods"?
(See Psalm 82:6)
John 10:35: If He called those gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
John 10:36: do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am Son of God?

John 17:3: And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Proverbs 8:12: I, wisdom, dwell with sense, and I find knowledge of discretions.
Proverbs 8:13: The fear of Jehovah is to hate evil; I hate pride and loftiness, and the evil way, and the perverse mouth.
Proverbs 8:14: Counsel and sound wisdom are mine; I am understanding; I have strength.
Proverbs 8:15: By me kings reign, and leaders decree righteousness.
Proverbs 8:16: Rulers and nobles rule by me, and all the judges of the Earth.
Proverbs 8:17: I love those who love me, and those who seek me early find me.
Proverbs 8:18: Riches and honor are with me; enduring wealth and righteousness.
Proverbs 8:19: My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold; and my increase is better than the best silver.
Proverbs 8:20: I walk in the path of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of justice;
Proverbs 8:21: to cause those who love me to inherit wealth, and I will fill up their treasuries.
Proverbs 8:22: Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, from then, before His works.
Proverbs 8:23: I was set up from everlasting, from that which was before the Earth.
Proverbs 8:24: When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no springs heavy with water.
Proverbs 8:25: Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought forth;
Proverbs 8:26: before He had made the Earth and the fields, or the highest part of the dust of the world.
Proverbs 8:27: When He prepared the Heavens, I was there; when He set a circle on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:28: when He formed the clouds above, when He made the strong fountains of the deep,
Proverbs 8:29: when He gave to the sea its limit, that the waters should not pass beyond His Command; when He decreed the foundations of the Earth,
Proverbs 8:30: then I was at His side, like a master workman; and I was His delights day by day, rejoicing before Him at every time;
Proverbs 8:31: rejoicing in the world, His Earth; and my delight was with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:32: And now listen to me, O sons, for blessed are those who keep my ways.
Proverbs 8:33: Hear instruction, and be wise, and do not refuse it.
Proverbs 8:34: Blessed is the man listening to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Proverbs 8:35: For whoever finds me finds life, and he shall obtain favor from Jehovah.
Proverbs 8:36: But he who sins against me does violence to his own soul; all who hate me love death.

I will post more soon.

If you can think of any more to add, please do so.

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 9 September 2002 5:25:52

Zechariah,

            You said that Jesus was the first created.  Can you show this to me using the scriptures?                       How do you handle John 1:3 "And WITHOUT HIM was not ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE" 

Below is a list of some of the Titles and Names of Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah):

The Almighty (Revelation 1:8)
The Alpha and the Omega (Revelation 1:8, 1:11, 21:6, 22:13)
The First and the Last (Revelation 1:11, 1:17, 2:18, 22:13)
The Beginning and the End (Revelation 1:8, 21:6, 22:13)
LORD OF LORDS (1st Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:14, 19:16)
The Chief Shepherd (1st Peter 5:4)
The Good Shepherd (John 10:14)
The Mighty God (Isaih 9:6)
Wonderful Counsellor (Isaiah 9:6)
Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6)
The Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6)
Immanuel/Emmanuel, which means "GOD WITH US" (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23)
God (John 1:1, John 20:28, Isaiah 40:9, Romans 9:5, and More!)

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 23 September 2002 4:50:16

In Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12 we find the expression "first and last" used of Yahweh. From Isaiah 44:6,7 this expression, "first and last" appears to mean that which is begun is carried through to completion, something which the false gods of the heathen cannot do. However, most of our trinitarian and oneness neighbors appear to read into this expression 'from eternity past to the eternal future,' although there is nothing in the scritpures to warrant this meaning.

In the last book of the Bible, we again find this expression "first and last". At least twice it is applied to Jesus in Revelation 1:17 and Revelation 2:8.Thus our trinitarian and oneness neighbors would have us accept this as proof that Jesus is Yahweh, since the phrase is applied to both Yahweh and Jesus. The phrase appears also in Revelation 22:13, where Yahweh applies it to himself.

Another similar phrase found in Revelation 21:6 and 22:13 is "beginning and the end". These scriptures apply to Yahweh; thus this phrase is not applied to Jesus

Still another phrase used in the book of Revelation is "alpha and omega." We find this phrase in Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13 -- all three of which refer to Yahweh. This phrase is therefore not used of Jesus.

Let us go into more detail to support the above applications of these terms.

Looking at Revelation 1:1, we note that the Revelation is from God who gave it to Jesus. (This should be enough to prove that Jesus is not God.) The message is delivered through an angel to John. In Revelation 1:4 John says the message is from the Father, Yahweh, who is and who was and who is to come. Then in verse 5, John says: "and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood." Thus John identifies two individuals which the messages are from, the Father, Yahweh, and Jesus, God's Son.

Then in verse 8 we find the quote: "?I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End', says the Lord God, ?the being who was and who is to come -- the Almighty.'"

"The Lord" in this verse is Yahweh, not Jesus, as shown from Revelation 1:4. The phrase "Lord God" is based on the later Septuagint usage of substituting Kurios for Yahweh. The Hebrew phrase is Yahweh Elohim. The later Septuagint has substituted Yahweh with Kurios [Lord] and Elohim with Theos [God]. This can be seen by comparing Acts 3:22; 7:37 with the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 18:15. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the NT, it is in reference to Yahweh, the Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6. See Divine Name

Likewise, with the phrases "the Lord our God" and "the Lord your God". These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.

The fact that the NT copies we have give a substitute for God's name does not take away the fact that it is Yahweh, not his Son Jesus, who is speaking in Revelation 1:8. 

In verses 9 and 10 John refers to himself when he heard a loud voice, as of a trumpet, (verse 11) saying, "Write what you see... This quote is from Jesus, not Yahweh, as described in the following verses. In verse 18 Jesus says: "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." Jesus was actually dead and not alive anywhere, if this is to make any sense at all, for he contrasts his being dead with being alive forevermore. Now we know that God cannot die, so Jesus is thus by this verse proved to not be God Almighty.

Many translations have the words added in verse 11, before the word "Write": "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last." However, this sentence does not appear in the oldest Greek manuscripts and therefore does not appear in many Bible translations, and thus we do not include them as part of our discussion.

Revelation 22:12-16: "See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone's work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. "It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

The angel delivering the message recorded Revelation 22:13 is quoting Yahweh, the Father of Jesus, who comes to judge the world, not only with and by means of Jesus, but also the saints. -- Malachi 3:1-6; Psalm 96:13; 98:9; Daniel 7:18,22; Isaiah 40:10,11; Micah 1:3; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 17:31; 2 Peter 3:7,8; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Psalm 90:4; Revelaton 1:1; 20:4,11-13; 22:6.

Earlier, John says that the angel spoke these words, which he states are from Yahweh. (verse 6) In verse 7 the angel is evidently quoting Jesus. In verse 8 John is the one speaking, and the angel rebukes him in verse 9. In verse 10 John begins to quote the angel again, but in verse 12, the angel is delivering the words of Yahweh (see verse 6) -- it is evident that the angel is not referring to himself. Verses 14 and 15 could be either Jesus or the angel speaking. In verse 16, it is evident that the angel is quoting Jesus, and then in verse 17 the angel is prophetically quoting the spirit and the bride. In verses 18-19, the angel is again speaking (although he could be quoting Jesus), but in verse 20 he quotes Jesus, while the last part of verse 20 and all of verse 21 is John himself speaking.

But let us assume that Jesus is the one speaking in Revelation 22:12,13, as many have claimed. All this would mean is that these titles or phrases applied to Yahweh are also applied to Jesus. Does this mean that Jesus is Yahweh, the God who is identified also as the Father and God of Jesus? Absolutely not!

First we note that none of the passages say that the Father is the Son, or even that the Son equals the Father. Nor do any of these passages directly say anything about the non-creation of either the Father or the Son.

One must admit that just because the same title is applied to individuals, this does not make these two individuals one individual. Else every ruler who has ever used the title "king" would have to be the same individual as every other ruler who has used the title "king." Each ruler who uses this title, however, uses it with respect to his peculiar realm of domain and time. Thus just because the same titles are given to both the Father and the Son does not mean they are the same being.

That Jesus has not always existed throughout eternity can be seen from our earlier discussion, "Did Jesus Have a Beginning?". Thus these titles applied to him must not mean that he existed throughout eternity.

Nor can they refer especially to the Father's being from eternity (which, as a matter of fact, he is), since that would be incompatible with their being used of the Son, who is not from eternity.

Likewise, we have shown elsewhere that the word "beginning" does not mean eternity, but rather a point when something begins, or a person or thing at the start of something. Additionally the word "first" does not mean eternity but a person or thing at the start of something. Similarly can be said concerning the words "last" and "end": neither of these denote eternity, but rather, just as it says, the last or end of something. The Alpha and Omega symbolism only emphasizes the same thing, since Alpha is the first or start of the Greek alphabet, and Omega is the last or end of the Greek alphabet.

How, then, do these terms apply to both the Father and the Son within the domain of each? We have already pointed out that these expressions seem to carry the thought of that which is begun is carried through to completion: Isaiah 44:6,7. This would apply both to Yahweh as originator of his divine plan and the one who designed it from beginning to the completed end, and to the Son as the one who carries out the divine plan by means of his death, resurrection and the coming day of judgment. Some have noted that Jesus is the first human to be raised to life without end by Yahweh his Father, thus he is called the "firstborn of the dead". (Colossians 1:18) He is also the last to be so resurrected since all others who eventually receive such a resurrection will be through Jesus, not by Yahweh directly. (John 5:21,22; 6:39,44; 11:25) Thus there appears to be a connection between his statements that he became dead was now alive forever and ever. His holding the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18) shows the authority given to him by his God of releasing all who are in death and hades. -- John 5:27-29 (New American Standard); Revelation 20:11-13

However, there is also another application that could be meant. Each -- both Jesus and Yahweh -- is the first and the last of his peculiar kind: Yahweh is the first and the last of his peculiar kind, in that he is the first and the last one to be increate, that is, never to have been created. No one was before Yahweh in this sense and no one will be after him in this sense. The Son is the first and the last of his peculiar kind, in that he is the first and the last to have been directly created by God, all other creatures having been indirectly created by God, that is, through the agency of the Logos. Thus the Father and the Son are both unique -- which is the meaning of these three expressions -- but each of them is unique in a different sense: The Father is unique in that he is the only -- the first and the last -- being never created; the Son is unique in that he is the only -- the first and the last -- being ever directly created by Yahweh without the assistance of an agent, which creative assistance by the Logos occurred in the case of all the rest of creation -- the Logos himself being excepted. (John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 15:27) Thus Yahweh is the first and the last, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end of increation -- the only being who never was created. The Logos is the first and the last, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end of God's direct creation. These terms used with reference to the Son are equivalent to his being called: "the only begotten of the Father." (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9) Their use with reference to the Father implies that he is from eternity, though not directly teaching it, the direct teaching being his uniqueness in that he never was created or begotten, as was the Son.

In service of Jesus,

Ronald

Ronald you resurrected Jesus with this thread!

Zechariah 11:12,13:

12 I said to them, "If you think it best, give me my wages; and if not, keep them." So they weighed for my wages thirty pieces of silver. 13 Yahweh said to me, "Throw it to the potter, the handsome price that I was valued at by them!" I took the thirty pieces of silver, and threw them to the potter, in the house of Yahweh. -- World English

I [Zechariah] said to them [the shepherds of Israel and Judah], "If you think it best, give me my wages; and if not, keep them." So they weighed for my wages thirty pieces of silver. 13 Yahweh said to me [Zechariah], "Throw it to the potter, the handsome price that I was valued at by them!" I [Zechariah] took the thirty pieces of silver, and threw them to the potter, in the house of Yahweh. -- World English

According to many, this scripture shows that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). It is often vaguely used to support the trinity doctrine. Since Jesus was priced at 30 pieces of silver, and since it appears to many that Yahweh here says, "I was valued at by them," they conclude that Jesus is here called Yahweh, and evidently this is supposed to give support to the trinitarian philosophy of three persons in one God. Let us look at this closer.

The above is all part of a prophetic dramatization. In the context the prophet takes two shepherd's staves, named Beauty and Bands, and breaking them, shows the cessation of God's pastoral relationship toward Israel. The staff, Beauty, depicts the cessation of his covenant with them, while Bands indicates the deterioration of the relationship between the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern monarchy of Judah. The prophecy of the potter's field is a part of the former. It was this act, brought about by the treachery of Judas, that marked the termination of the law relationship to "them that believed". -- Colossians 2:14; Romans 10:4

The thirty pieces of silver was the price which, by the Mosaic law, a man was condemned to pay if his ox should gore a servant (Exodus 21:32). The price paid to Judas for our Lord, the sacrifice for all mankind, was paid for out of the temple-money, destined for the purchase of sacrifices. He who "took on himself the form of a slave", in likeness of sinful flesh, (Philippians 2:7; Romans 8:3,21) was sold at the legal price of a slave.

Now if in the prophetic drama of Zechariah, the price valued is fulfilled in Jesus, and if this would prove that Jesus is Yahweh, we would need to consider the rest of the prophecy in the same light. If in the prophecy, it is Yahweh who asks for the wages -- "give me my wages", then according the reasoning of many desiring to prove that Jesus is Yahweh, we should expect that the one who fulfilled this part also must be Yahweh. In the fulfillment, who asked for the wages? Matthew records it was Judas: "What are you willing to give me, and I will deliver him to you?" (Matthew 26:15, World English) According to the reasoning often presented in trying to prove that Jesus is Yahweh through use of Zechariah 11:12,13, this would also prove that Judas is Yahweh.

Additionally, Matthew 27:5 says of Judas, "He threw down the pieces of silver in the sanctuary..." Since in the fulfillment it was Judas who actually threw the pieces of silver in the sanctuary, should we then conclude that Judas is Zechariah, or if Zechariah represented Jesus (as some commentators claim), should we conclude that Judas is Jesus? No, for the prophetic drama does not have actual person-for-person correspondences, but rather prophetically depicts the events to occur.

However, actions are often attributed to Yahweh even though Yahweh himself does not carry out the actions. Thus we read in Exodus 7:17 where Yahweh says He Himself will smite the waters with the rod in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron that held the rod (Exodus 7:19,20). Should we conclude from this that Aaron is also Yahweh?

See also:

Misuse of Similarities

http://reslight.addr.com/similarities.html

Those who try to use Zechariah 11:12-13 to try to prove that Jesus is Yahweh simply haven't taken time to try to reason thoroughly on where such reasoning leads. Thus there is nothing here that shows that Jesus is Yahweh, or that there are three persons in one God, as claimed by the trinity doctrine.

In service of Jesus,

Ronald

  The One Pierced

Zechariah 12:10

"They will look at the one they stabbed to death."- The Bible in Living English, Byington

"They will look at him they have pierced."-Living Bible, Taylor

"They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death."- Todays English Version

"They will look at the one whom they have pierced".- The Jerusalem Bible

"They shall look on whom they have thrust through."-New American Bible.

"They shall look on him whom they stabbed."-Moffatt

"They shall look at him whom they have stabbed."-American Translation, Goodspeed

"They shall look upon Him who they have pierced."-Modern language Bible

"When they look on whom they have pierced."-Revised Standard Version

"Their eyes will be turned to the one who was wounded."-Bible in Basic English

"When they see the one they pierced with a spear."-Contemporary English Bible

It is claimed by some that Zechariah 12:10 gives proof that Jesus was Yahweh in the flesh, since in Zechariah it is supposedly stated that Yahweh is the one pierced, but John in the New Testament applies this to Jesus. We note that John's inspired rendering of this verse is not "they looked upon me", but rather "they looked upon him", and John applies it to Jesus, not Yahweh. -- John 19:37.

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar says (This material was obtained from the NWT Defense site, which contains some apparent typos.):

138. The relative Pronoun... (2) Not depending on a governing substantive, but itself expressing a substantial idea. Clauses introduced in this way may be called independent relative clauses. This use of ["asher"] is generally rendered in English by he who, he whom, &c... In Z[echariah] 12:10 also, instead of the unintelligible ["elai eth asher", "to me whom"], we should probably read ["el asher", "to him whom], and refer this passage to this class [of 'independent relative clauses'].== -- pages 444,445,446.

John plainly shows how Zechariah 12:10 should be understood by quoting it at John 19:37, where we find the words in our collection of English Bible versions reads, not "me," but "him," "the man," or, "the One." Yahweh is a spirit being and never became a man, and "No man has seen [him] at any time," and thus was not the One pierced through.

The following are the words F .F. Bruce:

This has been done with Zech. 12:10, which foretells a day of great mourning in Jerusalem and the surrounding territory when, as the Masoretic Hebrew text puts it, "they shall look unto me whom they have pierced" (so R.V.). The passage is quoted once and echoed once in the New Testament, and in both places the pronoun is not "me" but "him". This is not so significant in the place where the passage is merely echoed (Rev. I : 7, " and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him"), for that is not an exact quotation. Here the predicted looking to the one who was pierced is interpreted of the Second Advent of Christ. But in John 19:37 the piercing is interpreted of the piercing of Christ's side with a soldier's lance after His death on the cross, and here Zech. 12:10 is expressly quoted: "And again another scripture says, 'They shall look on him whom they have pierced'." It is a reasonable inference that this is the form in which the Evangelist knew the passage, and indeed the reading "him' instead of "me" appears in a few Hebrew manuscripts. The R.S.V. thus has New Testament authority for its rendering of Zech.12:10 , "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall moum for him, as on e mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born." Why then is the R.S.V. criticized for conforming to the New Testament here? Because, if the reading "me" be retained, the reference would be to the speaker, who is God, and in view of the application of the passage in the New Testament, there are some who see here an anticipation of the Christian doctrine of our Lord's divine nature. The reading "me" is certainly quite early, for it appears in the Septuagint (which otherwise misses the point of the passage); but the New Testament seems to attach no significance to Zech. 12:10 as providing evidence for the deity of Christ,.... And, whoever the pierced one is, the fact that he is referred to elsewhere in the verse in the third person ("they shall mourn for him....and weep bitterly over him") suggests that he is Yahweh's representative (probably the anointed king), in whose piercing Yahweh Himself is pierced. - History of the Bible in English, pages199, 200, Lutterworth Press, 1979 third edition.

It is reported that there are 45 Hebrew manuscripts that read *el asher* instead of "elai eth asher". Bruce refers to a "few" Hebrew manuscripts that read "him" instead of "me."

Both translation and interpretation of these verses are difficult. It is possible to read, "they will look to me whom they have pierced," meaning that David's house and Jerusalem had pierced Yahweh. But piercing [Heb.daqar] elsewhere in the O.T. always means physical violence and usually death (e.g., Num. 25:8; 1 Sam 31:4); it does so expressly in 13:3. The mourning described in vv. 10b-12 is mourning "for him," the one pierced or stabbed. It seems preferrable to take the MT's object marker before the relative pronoun as indicating an accusative of respect, allowing one to translate "concerning the one whom they pierced" (cf. LXX.). - Volume 7, p.828

Since Yahweh never has been nor is a man of flesh, nor has Yahweh ever been physically pierced through, if Zechariah 12:10 is referring to Yahweh as the one being pierced through, it would have to be as stated by A. E. Kirkpatrick: "It is Jehovah who has been thrust through in the Person of His representative." - The Doctrine of the Prophets, page 472.

This same line of thought is what Jesus expressed when he stated: "I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." -- Matthew 25:42.

Thus we see that Zechariah 12:10 does not give evidence that Jesus is Yahweh, as claimed by some believers in the trinity or oneness doctrines.

In service of Jesus,

Ronald

Deuteronomy 10:17: For Jehovah your God, He is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords; the great, the mighty, the fearful God who does not lift up faces, nor take a bribe.

Psalms 136:1: O give thanks to Jehovah, for He is good; for His mercy endures forever.

Psalms 136:2: O give thanks to the God of gods; for His mercy endures forever.

Psalms 136:3: O give thanks to the Lord of lords; for His mercy endures forever; 1st

Timothy 6:14: that you keep the Commandment spotless, blameless, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1st Timothy 6:15: who in His own time will reveal the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1st Timothy 6:16: the only One having immortality, living in light that cannot be approached, whom no one of men saw, nor can see; to whom be honor and everlasting might. Amen.

Revelation 17:14: These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and the ones with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones.

Revelation 19:16: And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name having been written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

I notice that this leaves out:

 

Ezra 7:12 - Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect and so forth.

 

Ezekiel 26:7 - For thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I will bring on Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people.

 

Daniel 2:37 - You, O king, are king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory;

In truth, any king who is king over other kings can be called "King of kings." Likewise, any ruler has a rulership over other rulers can be called "Lord of lords". In the Bible, only Yahweh is "God of gods".

In service of Jesus,

Ronald

 

Ronald What's this A Restoration Light Publication

Do you have a religous periodical or are you part of a religous organization looking to enlighten ones about Jesus or something?