Theists, why does God allow suffering..

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    maksym posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:27:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    Cofty,

    I'm curious to do research on my own concerning your theory of design but for now what you are asking is completely off topic and against forum guideline number 10

    Sorry Quiet One. My response to your question is posted above.

    cofty posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:33:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

    Post 2637 of 13591
    Joined 12/19/2009

    god does not say why but he does say that IT does cause suffering.

    Sorry I don't follow. Who or what do you mean by "IT"

    We are not talking aboout suffering that happens as a result of anybodies actions, we are talking about suffering that inherent in its design. The animal kingdom is "designed" to suffer.

    ziddina posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:34:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

    Post 8111 of 10450
    Joined 4/8/2009

    And rather than using the tedious process of posting each photo/illustration, I think I'll just post a few links, so I can toddle off to bed...

    On this thread, the illustrations show a gradual progression from simple to more complex automobiles...

    http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cars/carhist.htm

    On this website, going down to the single illustration at the bottom of the page, one can see how the wagon became an early type of a different "life-form", being modified into a primitive automobile...

    http://uh.edu/engines/engines_of_our_ingenuity-display_episode.php?episode_number=1596

    And here's a pretty good 'pictorial' timeline of automobile development - evolution...

    http://www.yourdiscovery.com/cars/timeline/

    And you can look at many other human inventions - computers, weapons, indoor plumbing/toilets, refrigeration, air conditioning, and on and on and on, and find the same EVOLUTION underpinning human efforts to create the objects we use.....

    Even though humans "build" and "create", their "creations" follow the EVOLUTIONARY progression - moving from simple to more complex; moving from fulfilling a simple need [a basic wagon-like structure] to adapting to more complex conditions [greater speed, highway systems, safety factors, anti-pollution factors], JUST AS WE SEE IN EVOLUTION OF LIFE FORMS...

    Humans are inextricably TIED to this EVOLUTIONARY progression - EVEN IN THEIR 'CREATIVE' PROCESSES!!!

    Zid

    cofty posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:39:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    Joined 12/19/2009
    I'm curious to do research on my own concerning your theory of design but for now what you are asking is completely off topic and against forum guideline number 10 - maksym

    On the contrary I said it was off topic and asked you to address the topic of this thread which you still fail to do.

    Incidently when you put "theory" in bold as if you are making a point you only display your ignorance of sceince. Gravity is "only a theory".

    How many books about evolution have your studied maksym? I mean books written scientists. If you would really curious to do your own research here are a few suggestions.

    "The making of the fittest" by Sean B Carroll

    "Evolution, what the fossils say" by Donald Prothero

    "Why Evolution is true" by Jerry Coyne

    "Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin

    "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Dawkins (summary of some of it here)

    "Life Ascending" by Nick Lane

    Now back this topic. If the natural world reveals god's "invisible qualities" what does that tell us about your god?

    Joey Jo-Jo posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 12:23:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    cofty wrote Sorry I don't follow. Who or what do you mean by "IT"

    God does not have a penis or a vagina, many referre god as He and I think that's wrong.

    simon17 posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 13:48:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    I sometimed wonder if theists get their natural history fom Walt Disney.

    Even there you'd see Bambi's mother die a very cruel and painful death. Oh wait, was that because Fallen Man started the forest fire, nevermind.

    The Quiet One posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 15:26:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    Joined 6/3/2011

    Thanks again to all who replied. I'm hoping that someone can provide a good reason as to how a loving God can watch a baby elephant be torn apart by hyenas without anyone to save it..having already built the hyenas to do such things. Would you do that if you had the power?

    maksym posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:59:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    Your Welcome Quiet one,

    Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8

    Pray and you will find the answers.

    Peace

    Maksym

    cofty posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:04:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    Joined 12/19/2009

    Pray and you will find the answers. - maksym

    That is as hilarious as it is disingenuous.

    Why can't you be as honest and humble as Tec who admitted there is no answer?

    M caliber posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:42:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

    Post 2560 of 3505
    Joined 6/22/2007

    If animals didn't suffer, there could be no ecosystem, and no way for man to benefit from animals (food, clothing, etc.).

    To judge if a human's life is more valued than an animal is a moral judgement for God to make

    How many of us feel sorry for the life of a turkey taken for us to enjoy thanksgiving ? ...

    Being humane is still important however

    humane (see synonym and pronunciation notes at human ).

    Synonyms

    1. merciful, kind, kindly,kindhearted,tender, compassionate, gentle, sympathetic; benevolent,benignant, Antonyms
    1. brutal. having a balanced view is important Is the term "mercy killing" a contradiction or does it make some measured sense also ?

    cofty posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:02:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    To judge if a human's life is more valued than an animal is a moral judgement for God to make - caliber

    You are begging the question, but puting that aside nobody is saying that an animal's life should be more valued than a human's.

    The question is aobut the fact that animal suffering is ubiquitous and extreme. This is not the result of an human action it is inherent in the way the natural world works.

    How do you square this with the idea of a loving creator?

    M caliber posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:29:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    How do you square this with the idea of a loving creator?
    In the square are four "Cardinal qualities" which must balance each other

    love... justice ...wisdom .. power.

    too much is unknown to us , to see the big picture.... I suspect that long term"wisdom " may hold the answer

    No man has ever seen, heard or even imagined the wonderful things God has in store (I Corinthians 2:9) ( a nice way of saying we don't know much yet )

    what we do know ....

    Inflicting "needless pain" on any living creature is incompatible with living in a Christ-like way is all we understand

    cofty posted Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:01:00 GMT(2/28/2012)

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    Joined 12/19/2009

    Inflicting "needless pain" on any living creature is incompatible with living in a Christ-like way is all we understand - Caliber

    How many hundreds of examples of needless suffering of animals in the natural world that are a direct result of design would you like me to provide?

    If Christ is the creator as you believe it would appear making animals suffer extreme pain and distress is very Christ-like.

    tec posted Wed, 29 Feb 2012 04:31:00 GMT(2/29/2012)

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    Why can't you be as honest and humble as Tec who admitted there is no answer?

    I don't mean to be nitpicky, but I said there IS an answer; I just don't know it.

    Thank you for the 'honest and humble' though.

    Peace,

    Tammy

    ziddina posted Wed, 29 Feb 2012 04:45:00 GMT(2/29/2012)

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    "Pray and you will find the answers....." Maksym

    Considering the topic under discussion, shouldn't that be "Prey"??????

    cofty posted Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:40:00 GMT(2/29/2012)

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    I don't mean to be nitpicky, but I said there IS an answer; I just don't know it.

    Then who does?

    M AK - Jeff posted Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:19:00 GMT(2/29/2012)

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    Joined 11/19/2004

    Interesting question.

    How about a related question?

    How did God kill the Egyptian animals twice during the plagues?

    In Exodus 9 he killed all the animals in Egypt [except the Israelite animals]

    In Exodus 12 he killed all the firstborn animals of the Egyptians AGAIN

    First of all - what did the animals do? How could they have 'set my people free'?

    Secondly - how did he kill the firstborn after he killed them all a couple days earlier?

    Just goes to show. You can't make sense out of a book of nonsensical Hebrew mythology and/or it's bloodthirsty God.

    Jeff

    robB posted Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:26:00 GMT(2/29/2012)

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    Joined 2/29/2012

    As a Theist I am qualified to answer the OP's question. The rest of you Anti-Thiests are wasting your time. God allows suffering because it is in his plan. Remember that the redemption plan was in effect before the foundation of the world. If a redemption is guaranteed, then the fall must also be guaranteed. No plan of God fails, otherwise, he cannot be God.

    Ultimately, as a creation, you are unable to require an answer from the creator. He owes you nothing. You exist at his pleasure. That suffering is in the plan is without question. God chose Christ to suffer, see Isaiah 53, and he chooses the world to suffer as well. In fact Christ has suffered more than anyone ever will. Much of suffering is overrated jealousy. A lot of suffering is necessary for strength.

    If you still hang on to the short sighted deception that there is no God, I offer the moral apologetic. If there is absolute good and absolute evil, there must be an absolute moral lawgiver. This is God. If God does not exist, then there is no absolute moral law. There is no good or bad, merely preferences and opinions. That you have nothing to eat and I throw away food is perfectly fine with me. What is there to complain about?

    The Quiet One posted Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:35:00 GMT(2/29/2012)

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    Hi Rob, welcome to Jwn. Thanks for your input. I'm wondering, though, what the fall and redemption of mankind has to do with innocent animals suffering due to no fault of there own? Just to be clear, I never said that I don't believe in a God. I just find the idea of a loving and just God irreconcilable with animals, who have committed no sin, enduring all kinds of pain and suffering because of mankinds 'fall' .

    M leavingwt posted Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:23:00 GMT(2/29/2012)

    Post 13775 of 14213
    Joined 6/16/2008

    "God allows suffering because it is in his plan."

    "If God does not exist, then there is no absolute moral law."

    Welcome to the forum.

    Most of us reject the first statement, and most of have absolutely no problem with the second one.

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