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ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM AT BROOKLYN

    The Searcher posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:29:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 28 of 1418
    Joined 1/10/2012

    The 2012 calendar encourages all to examine "For Family Discussion" aspects of the Covenants. Do that - but base your study on the Bible only, and then you will form a true understanding of the covenants, especially the New covenant. On the JANUARY/FEBRUARY page, this question is asked, "Would Abraham's seed prove to be just one individual, or would it be a composite seed?". Prepare yourself for a shocking revelation - the Apostle Paul categorically, and unequivocally stated under inspiration of God's Holy Spirit, "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: "And to seeds," as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: "And to your seed," who is Christ". (Galatians 3:16) However, the Apostle and the Holy Spirit must have got it wrong, because the "given" understanding is that it was a "composite" seed, composing of 144,000. That's 144,000 more than Paul was directed to teach us would bring about all the blessings on the earth. What does 'The Bible Really Teach'? Not ONE of the 144,000 has caused forgiveness of sins; not ONE has redeemed any human; not ONE has ever reconciled a human to Jehovah; not ONE will bring about ANY of God's promises - why not? Because, "For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him." (2 Cor. 1:20) By him, and him alone!!! The heavenly priesthood will be used to administer the benefits of Christ's ransom, not provide them. It is arrogant in the extreme to claim credit that belongs solely to the Christ! Now examine the 'Elephant in the Room; it is taught (and believed by most) that the 'Israel of God' (Gal. 6:16) applies only to the anointed, the 144,000 who will form the heavenly priesthood. This teaching is based on the erroneous and unscriptural claim that only natural Israelites were party to the Law Covenant, and that "the vast mixed crowd" who came out of Egypt along with them, were not. Where in the Bible is there a single verse which states that those two "groups" were separated when the covenant was offered by Moses for acceptance? There is not one, and the Scriptures state that all the people answered with one voice. (Exodus 24:3) "FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN"; in the MARCH/APRIL pages of the calendar, it says that the Law Covenant "helped to preserve the promised line of the seed". Why didn't Rahab & Ruth corrupt that "natural" Israelite, Messianic family tree? They were a Canaanitess and a Moabitess, not "natural" Israelites. The answer - they became Israelites due to their faith, just as all those who joined the Exodus became Israelites in God's eyes. The priesthood in Moses time was taken from the full nation of Israel; likewise, the heavenly priesthood is taken out of the full nation of the "Israel of God" and will judge the remainder of that 'nation' remaining on the earth. (Rev. 7:4; Luke 22:30)

    designs posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:49:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 9200 of 18560
    Joined 6/17/2009

    Ask your local Rabbi what 'new covenant' means.

    tornapart posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:17:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 237 of 1812
    Joined 12/17/2011

    They use the argument of the two classes in Israel, natural and proselytes so they have something to back their claims on of two classes now... the anointed with their mediator and then everyone else with no mediator...

    Vanderhoven7 posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:09:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 569 of 1645
    Joined 9/4/2010

    Yes, the New Covenant in His blood applies to all believers (spiritual Israelites).

    The 144,000 are in fact the Great Multitude that no man could number except by a symbol; a number which represents perfect symetry and completeness. The Apostle John "hears" the perfect number, then turns and "sees" the actual group. This hearing and then seeing sequence is a literary device that the Apostle uses often in Revelation to display imagery.

    Ding posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:56:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 3069 of 5034
    Joined 8/27/2010

    For the vast majority of JWs, it doesn't matter what the Bible says.

    What matters is what the GB says it says.

    baltar447 posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:59:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 1032 of 2255
    Joined 3/11/2006

    This would mean something if you believed in the bible I guess?

    tornapart posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:39:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 239 of 1812
    Joined 12/17/2011

    Baltar.. it is in the bible research section, so I guess yeah.. LOL There are still some of us left..

    Londo111 posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:33:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 319 of 3257
    Joined 11/9/2011

    The Society's view goes back to the Mystery Doctrine. Russell taught that THE CHRIST was not only Jesus, who is the head of the body, but the body as well, the 144000. Therefore, they believed that when Jesus arrived, the Christ had only started to arrive in the flesh, and afterward, the body started to follow for 19 centuries. They believed that all the 144000 would be part of the sacrifice of the Christ, symbolizing the sacrifice of the bull(Jesus) and the goat(the 144000). Therefore they viewed the composite Christ was the mediator between God and the rest of humanity.

    Rutherford got rid of various aspects of the Mystery Doctrine, but its aftereffects are still felt today in the Society's dogma.

    RayPublisher posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 23:39:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 339 of 1906
    Joined 3/1/2011

    @Londo111 - Fascinating thought.

    The book The Four Presidents of the WT Society speaks of this "Mystery Doctrine" and how it was Freddy's magnum opus but he never "finished it" because it was too hard of a nut to crack.

    Reportedly, a brother asked what the Mystery doctrine was and he said how did you hear about that? When pressed he wouldn't answer and then finally said well if you are not of the annointed then I can't discuss it with you.

    Londo111 posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 23:44:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 320 of 3257
    Joined 11/9/2011

    Yes, I just finished reading that book. That was the big insight that I gained from it and suddenly the Society's stance made sense (within their twisted framework).

    Pterist posted Tue, 20 Aug 2013 19:54:56 GMT(8/20/2013)

    Post 1321 of 1400
    Joined 10/17/2012

    @ londo111

    Do you know where this book is available that shows this doctrine of the composite Christ ?

    And which publications changed it during Rutherford's time ?

    Thanks in advance :)

    Londo111 posted Tue, 20 Aug 2013 20:05:13 GMT(8/20/2013)

    Post 2069 of 3257
    Joined 11/9/2011

    I lent my book out, so I don't have it handy. I believe it had all the references.

    However, there has been discussion on this forum about this in the past:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/126748/1/How-is-the-e2809cMystery-Doctrinee2809d-from-e2809cThe-Three-Worldse2809d-still-playing-out

    Pterist posted Tue, 20 Aug 2013 20:39:14 GMT(8/20/2013)

    Post 1322 of 1400
    Joined 10/17/2012

    @londo111

    Thanks my friend and brother in Christ.....

    This link also got me this ..:)

    http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/Russell/3Worlds/3worlds.pdf

    label licker posted Tue, 20 Aug 2013 23:58:42 GMT(8/20/2013)

    Post 321 of 643
    Joined 1/15/2013

    Again, we go back to the Torah and all what Yehovah had commanded us and Yeshuah to do. It's all there in the first five books of Moses or the book of instructions. And those who follow it are his people(Israel). If you listen to some of the Torah teachers they all agree that the covenant is a renewed covenant.

    Good job The Searcher (luv your puppy dog)

    Fernando posted Wed, 21 Aug 2013 00:26:27 GMT(8/21/2013)

    Post 2143 of 3120
    Joined 9/21/2009

    It seems the modern-day Sanhedrin has applied their convoluted and twisted reasoning to this elephant for some time now:

    *** w65 11/15 pp. 687-688 par. 24 The Truthteller Steps In with an Oath ***
    Then, about the year 96 of our Common Era, in two of the visions that the apostle John recorded in the book Revelation the exact number of the spiritual seed of Abraham who are joined to the Principal Seed was revealed, namely, the perfectly balanced number of 144,000.

    ILoveTTATT posted Wed, 21 Aug 2013 01:15:59 GMT(8/21/2013)

    Post 107 of 1074
    Joined 7/30/2013

    Searcher:

    Thank you very much for this easy-to-understand explanation. I talked to my dad about the "Jesus is NOT our mediator" doctrine and he was SHOCKED!! Absolutely SHOCKED...

    He said "I always thought that Jesus WAS our mediator"... and I said, nope, according to "official JW doctrine"... Jesus is NOT our mediator...

    Which showed me that everyone's different. For me, the straw that broke the camel's back was that the Tetragramatton does not appear in the NT. For my dad, it is shocking that this is our official doctrine. He wants me to show him the WT's where it appears (which I will soon do so, gladly ;)

    Then the explanation has to be, why is "Jesus is NOT our mediator" WRONG?

    Thanks for this post!!

    ILTTATT

    Julia Orwell posted Wed, 21 Aug 2013 01:40:39 GMT(8/21/2013)

    Post 1761 of 3261
    Joined 1/26/2013

    That's a good point Searcher! It can be used to compare what the Bible says with what the Org says. "Which one is correct?" ask that to a JW and see the huge cog diss happen. Worked on my husband.

    Refriedtruth posted Wed, 21 Aug 2013 08:03:11 GMT(8/21/2013)

    Post 753 of 754
    Joined 5/5/2010

    Elephant in the room

    Bobcat posted Wed, 21 Aug 2013 12:01:33 GMT(8/21/2013)

    Post 977 of 1489
    Joined 3/25/2012

    Any one else becomes Abraham's seed only by faith in Christ. 'Faith in Christ' is in place of being one of his natural offspring (of which he had none, probably for that reason, so as to keep the 'faith' demarcation clear).

    So there is no such thing as a "composite seed." There is Christ, who is Abraham's seed, and there are all of Christ's 'offspring' via their faith in him.

    (Galatians 3:26-29 NWT) . . .YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

    Good points, Searcher. "Composite seed" is a counterfeit phrase, used to sell the idea that the "seed of Abraham" is more than one, but not more than 144,001.

    In Galatians 4:21-31, Paul compares the new covenant with Sarah and quotes from Isaiah 54:1

    (Galatians 4:27 NWT) . . .For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the husband.”

    Those in the new covenant at that time had not yet outnumbered those in the Law covenant, but the process had begun. If those in the new covenant would only number 144,001, it would represent a serious failure of what Paul expected.

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