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    allyouneedislove posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:05:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 19 of 92
    Joined 11/4/2011

    I had a few comments to make regarding Paul Grundy's jwfact.com website. These comments are in no way meant to defend JWs, but only to point out illogical statements. I have actually found his website to be quite informative.

    www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/malawi-mexico-oath-allegiance.html

    This link discusses the Malawi atrocities committed against JWs. However, Grundy makes a few statements that are illogical and misleading.

    Quote 1: "This article shows the tragedy that occurred when Malawian Witnesses were hypocritically forced to uphold a higher standard than was expected of those in Mexico...". JWs are not " forced" to do anything concerning their faith. To use the word "forced" implies that the Malawian JWs had zero choice regarding the party card decision. I understand that some may have been in fear of being disfellowshipped. However, they could have bought a party card if they desired to do so. The Governing Body or Elders were not physically holding them from doing so. I am a big proponent of people recognizing that they have free will, no matter how difficult the consequences may be that follow.

    Quote 2: " Malawian Witnesses suffered unspeakable atrocities due to following the Watchtower’s illogical policy forbidding them to hold a political card in a one party state ". Once again, this statement is misleading and illogical. The atrocities were due to wicked human beings committing them. Grundy's comment here reminds me of the statement "If she wasn't wearing such provocative clothing, he would not have raped her". Each human being, regardless of whether they are part of organized religion, should be able to have free choice without the threat of violence. Grundy does go on to say " This sickening account of brutal rape, torture and murder of Jehovah’s witnesses is shocking and the people responsible cannot be excused for their actions, but this could have been prevented by purchasing a political card ". Grundy would have us believe that anyone should compromise on their personal beliefs, just so as not to become an object of hatred. This is not an idea I subscribe to.

    Quote 3: " It is bad enough that the Governing Body misused the 'word of God' to set the Malawian brothers up for murder ". This statement is very questionable. Again, Grundy is minimizing the fact that every human should have the right to choose. I feel that he is implying that no Malawian JW agreed with the position on purchasing a party card.

    cedars posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:34:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 1557 of 5837
    Joined 8/7/2011

    Paul Grundy has an email address on his website. Have you tried it?

    Cedars

    cofty posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:36:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 2508 of 14088
    Joined 12/19/2009

    allyouneedislove - you give me the impression you don't begin to understand the psychology of cults.

    The JWs in Malawi , like all sincere Jws everywhere, believed that the governing body spoke for god. In a difficult life-and-death matter they looked to the GB for direction as they had been taught. This put the GB in a position of tremendous power which they abused without regard for the human consequences.

    It was not fear of disfellowshipping that motivated them to surrender their lives and those of their families it was the deeply held belief that their relationship with god and eternal life was at stake.

    Flat_Accent posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:08:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 89 of 440
    Joined 11/28/2011

    Yes, OP. You're missing the point. Think like a witness here. Those JW's have free will - but for them, the consequences of going against Gods Organization and risking disfellowshipping/everlasting death are far more terrifying than suffering in this system for the truth. And I'm sure fear-mongering and peer pressure from the local elders also played a part in those witnesses deciding not to get a party card. Would you have gone against what the GB told you to do? I think not.

    Amelia Ashton posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:13:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 455 of 1920
    Joined 11/2/2010

    The "Shun Gun" was definitely being pointed at their heads!

    M Poztate posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:16:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 2324 of 2491
    Joined 10/6/2003

    I understand that some may have been in fear of being disfellowshipped. However, they could have bought a party card if they desired to do

    IF IF...you are a witness you really don't know much about your beliefs. You are either very young or have led a sheltered life. You should really download the new elders book from bittorrent "shepherding the flock of god" and see how things really play out in real life...

    Marvin Shilmer posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:18:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 1506 of 3277
    Joined 5/6/2001

    ... JWs are not "forced" to do anything concerning their faith....

    The choice presented to Jehovah’s Witnesses is this:

    -- Refuse the MCP cards.

    -- Or

    -- Suffer the loss of your closest friends and family.[1]

    If you think Watchtower’s top leadership bears no responsibility for the rapes and murders of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Malawi then you are sadly mistaken.[2]

    Marvin Shilmer

    http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com

    ____________

    Ref:

    1. Watchtower Shunning – Deadly by Design available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2012/02/watchtower-shunning-deadly-by-design.html

    2. Malawi — Savage Betrayal by Watchtower? available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/03/malawi-savage-betrayal-by-watchtower.html

    Azazel posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:35:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 473 of 586
    Joined 12/1/2011

    allyouneedislove first off welcome to the forum and i'm glad you are here.

    In response to your concerns that you posted i need to ask have you read Crisis of Concience? Paul is using information from a very reliable source that is from an ex Governing body member Ray Franz.Depending on how new you are/were a JW you may not have heard about him.

    The Malawi persecution was sadly as good a publicity stunt for the WTS as were the persecution in Nazi Germany. Remember you will be persecuted because of being my follower said Jesus, this persecution gave credibility to the WTS.

    Quote 1. Yes the JW are forced because their are no options. The GB says do this so what choice is there? if you dont do as the GB says you are not keeping in step with the organization and falling from God. No choice!

    Quote 2. In Malawi it was a single party state there was no opposition so this Party Card was in fact a Citizen Card identifing the holder as a citizen of Malawi. The card was neccesery to hold a job ,pay tax's own property etc. It suited the GB to have this example to show the JW are Gods people because of persecution.

    Quote 3. Same thing is happening in Eritrea - good publicity for the WTS. It suits the GB to have people facing persecution as i have already said. The fact they ignored the double standard that was happening in Mexico is proof that they pick n choose to apply the bible when it suits them to do so.

    As you are new here allyouneedislove i'm going to cut you some slack and hopefully the following posters will too. Get a copy of Crisis of Concience by Ray Franz ( its available for a few dollars online as a pdf) and read the chapters on the Mexico-Malawi double standard. This issue caused a GB member to start looking at the goings on within the WTS leadership. Once you have read this section and i suggest you read the yearbooks relating to Malawi and all that was going on there and the "not a mention" of what happened in Mexico. The WTS speaks volumes by its silence.

    Please take my advice it's genuine and i want you to have a helpfull/healing experience here. Im glad you are reading JWFacts website, it is one of a few really credible sites that just diseminates factuall information. Have a look at JWNews too.

    Regards to you.

    Azazel

    Knowsnothing posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:50:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 610 of 1269
    Joined 3/2/2011
    The Governing Body or Elders were not physically holding them from doing so. I am a big proponent of people recognizing that they have free will, no matter how difficult the consequences may be that follow.

    Mmmhmm. Do it, or be shunned. Not much of a choice. To top it off do it, or in GB's belief, transgress before God.

    Grundy would have us believe that anyone should compromise on their personal beliefs, just so as not to become an object of hatred. This is not an idea I subscribe to.

    No. The problem is these particular people's personal beliefs were shaped, molded, crafted by the GB so as to believe their actions were pleasing God. The ultimate responsibility lies at the hands of GB.

    This statement is very questionable. Again, Grundy is minimizing the fact that every human should have the right to choose. I feel that he is implying that no Malawian JW agreed with the position on purchasing a party card.

    Whether an individual agreed is not important. They were collectively forbidden from holding cards, under threat of DF. There in lies the problem.

    tornapart posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:52:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 225 of 1860
    Joined 12/17/2011

    The problem with this is, those peope believed that if they bought the party card they were against God. It wasn't a case of being disfellowshipped. Their eternal life was at stake! If you were told that you would be destroyed for eternity, that God would punish you for it and not forgive you.. and you believed it was true.. what would you do?

    00DAD posted Sat, 18 Feb 2012 22:36:00 GMT(2/18/2012)

    Post 1564 of 5183
    Joined 7/29/2011
    allyouneedislove: JWs are not " forced" to do anything concerning their faith.

    Oh give me a break! Yeah it's all voluntary, just like stopping at red lights is voluntary.

    Break the JW "laws" and you'll be disfellowshipped.

    Plus you're missing the obvious point that what was expected of JWs in one country was completely inconsistent with an accepted practice in another.

    All you need is a brain!!!

    Ridiculous!

    outsmartthesystem posted Sun, 19 Feb 2012 15:47:00 GMT(2/19/2012)

    Post 381 of 1187
    Joined 5/19/2011

    TECHNICALLY you may be right. Malawian witnesses were not FORCED to uphold a higher standard than was expected of those in Mexico. No more so than I am "forced" to pay my property taxes. Nob more so than I am "forced" to obey the law about not burning car tires in my front lawn. The point being...Yes....I have the "freedom" to decide not to pay my taxes (at the forced eviction of my home) or the choice not to abide by the law that says I cannot burn tires in my front lawn (at the risk of fine from the county, state, and EPA). But is that really "freedom"?

    Yes.....some "may" have been disfellowshipped for purchasing party card. And yes.....Paul's wording could have been better (JW's did not have Zero choice in the matter)...........but what matters is the outcome. Malawian Witnesses had as much choice in the matter as do American citizens when it comes to paying their property taxes. If you "want" to "maintain" a healthy family life (i.e. not be shunned) then as a Malawain.......you need to forsake your logical thinking and go ahead and refuse to purchase such a card

    NewChapter posted Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:07:00 GMT(2/19/2012)

    Post 6172 of 11880
    Joined 1/25/2011

    I understand that some may have been in fear of being disfellowshipped. However, they could have bought a party card if they desired to do so.

    And yet they would have been penalized, while the Mexican brothers received the GB blessing to pay bribes, break the law, and carry documentation that falsely claimed they had served in the military. Why do you get all wrapped up in semantics? Red herring? Are you trying to deflate the seriousness of this horrendous behavior by getting into a word argument? FORCE does not have to be physical---it can be social and mental. Punishing an action by forcing everyone who you love to withdraw that love is indeed force. If it bothers you so much, choose the word PRESSURED. The outcome was the same, and you are worried about word choice.

    I think the rest of your objections fall under the above. You are getting yourself all confused over what force actually means, and the many ways it can be applied. Your analogy about 'provacative clothing' is especially weak. Perhaps it would be wrong to accuse a woman of her own rape because of provacative clothing---but how would we judge the man that dressed her that way and threw her to a lusty, violent crowd? THAT's the better analogy. Oh, wait----I guess there is precedence for this---Lot and his daughters. Perhaps that is why you fail to see the pathology in your false equvalency.

    NC

    Phizzy posted Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:17:00 GMT(2/19/2012)

    Post 372 of 7415
    Joined 12/17/2011

    It is more a matter of understanding how English is used. We who use the language, including our Australian cousins like Paul, unless we are Autistic, do not use English in a strict literal way.

    So Paul saying they were "forced" was another way of saying that the GB offered no alternative, but callously let the Malawian JW's suffer and die. In Mexico they gave an alternative, which they could have done for Malawi.

    Simple to understand if you are not overly pedantic.

    It would be the same if they allowed some to take all blood components in a tranfusion in one country and not another, I suppose you would say then that the GB do not "force" the ones who refuse a lifesaving transfusion in the country where it is forbidden to risk death, it is their choice.

    Yea, Sophies Choice.

    3dogs1husband posted Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:52:00 GMT(2/19/2012)

    Post 352 of 518
    Joined 10/10/2010

    Troll

    M glenster posted Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:26:00 GMT(2/19/2012)

    Post 1599 of 2830
    Joined 1/26/2007

    JWs are required to follow the JWs leaders' distinctive rules for membership.
    If they persist in rejecting them, they're out of the JWs, who are the shun them.

    Family members can maintain relationships as they need to in living to-
    gether, but aren't to talk about religious matters. The family member who is
    disfellowshipped and doesn't live with their JWs family members is to be disfel-
    lowshipped in the more general way. Possible exceptions include a disfellow-
    shipped minor getting spiritual instruction from their parents, that an older
    disfellowshipped relative can be present when JWs family members living in their
    home go over spiritual material, and visits--no more than two a year--from JWs
    elders to see if they're repentant.

    http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id17.html

    cantleave posted Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:56:00 GMT(2/19/2012)

    Post 8069 of 13289
    Joined 6/25/2009

    Do I smell ignorance, or is it just pure bullshit?

    M watson posted Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:04:00 GMT(2/19/2012)

    Post 4177 of 4364
    Joined 3/17/2005

    "Troll"...I disagree.

    I think I see the point being made by the OP. He/She may be looking at the jwfacts site as a reference site, without opinion.

    I have been reading allyouneedislove's other Posts, and don't see a "troll".

    dog is god posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:10:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 57 of 303
    Joined 12/31/2011

    There is a big growth in the society these days as to people claiming to be "annointed" . Mostly because many just can NOT give up their former belief in a heavenly hope. I remember for years watching the number of "partakers" decline. It was exciting as it ment that "that" generation was disappearing which ment "the end was really, really, really near". There was a sister in my cong that suddenly felt she was of the annointed. She partook for a couple of decades. then she felt un-called. She still goes. I was taught that if you weren't really "called" that if you partook, you were drinking to your eturnal death. I do not think anyone is annointed. People can believe what ever they want...doesn't make it true. What is the point? If the borg teaches that people are put in class distinction....which it does....the greatest support group "The Great Crowd" is doing ALL the work and getting the least reward. Who wants to be part of "the great crowd" whom the Bible was NOT written for and can only observe someone else partaking (maybe NEVER even seeing someone else "drink the wine and chew the wafer"). Jeez, talk about being "in but separate". You might as well be part of the World because it's a bigger and more important part you will ever have in to borg, unless you get to hold the microphone, give a talk (only if you have a penis), or get to be part of a committee of fellow losers to judge another loser. Kind of clever really to make the people who have no real value in the imagined scheme of thingsto feel they have a say. Like the Mormons bestowing guys with titles (Elder, High Priest etc) all for the sake of male ego. If you think you are "annointed" you need therapy.

    00DAD posted Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:28:00 GMT(2/21/2012)

    Post 1590 of 5183
    Joined 7/29/2011

    dog is god: If you think you are "annointed" you need therapy.

    True, but if you think the JWs are the only true religion on earth then you also need therapy!

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