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New Light

    Spade posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 05:43:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 96 of 246
    Joined 9/21/2010

    I've noticed quite a few dissidents of Jehovah's Organization that have left with some fixation on Jehovah's Witnesses concept of “new light.” I really don't understand. The antiquity of religion may be historically educational, but not always personally illuminating.

    The concept of "new light" is perfectly reasonable to me:

    http://www.watchtower21.org/2011/01/new-light.html

    Your word is a lamp to my foot, And a light to my roadway. Psalm 119:105

    But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. Proverbs 4:18


    Some important developments took place in the first few decades as Jehovah's Organization got its start and before it was firmly established. The first few decades began the ascension out of Christendom. It took several hundred years for Christendom's churches to descend into apostasy and some time to reverse the apostasy that blocked the way to God.

    This Time of the End, or day of Jehovah preparation beginning A. D. 1799 and closing A.D. 1914, though characterized by a great increase of knowledge over all past ages, is to culminate in the greatest time of trouble the world has ever known; but it is nevertheless preparing for and leading into that blessed time so long promised, when the true Kingdom of God, under the control of the true Christ, will fully establish an order of government the very reverse of that of Antichrist. Thy Kingdom Come 1st Edition - 1891 Page 59

    Apostasy—The Way to God Blocked

    WHY are Christendom’s first 400 years of history so important? For the same reason that the first few years of a child’s life are important—because they are the formative years when the foundation is laid for the future personality of the individual. What do Christendom’s early centuries reveal?

    The Seduction of Philosophy

    Historian Will Durant explains: “The Church took over some religious customs and forms common in pre-Christian [pagan] Rome—the stole and other vestments of pagan priests, the use of incense and holy water in purifications, the burning of candles and an everlasting light before the altar, the worship of the saints, the architecture of the basilica, the law of Rome as a basis for canon law, the title of Pontifex Maximus for the Supreme Pontiff, and, in the fourth century, the Latin language . . . Soon the bishops, rather than the Roman prefects, would be the source of order and the seat of power in the cities; the metropolitans, or archbishops, would support, if not supplant, the provincial governors; and the synod of bishops would succeed the provincial assembly. The Roman Church followed in the footsteps of the Roman state.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.

    Such an attitude left the way open for Greek philosophy and terminology to infiltrate Christendom’s teachings, especially in the fields of Trinitarian doctrine and the belief in an immortal soul. As Wolfson states: “The [church] Fathers began to look in the stockpile of philosophic terminology for two good technical terms, of which one would be used as a designation of the reality of the distinctness of each member of the Trinity as an individual and the other would be used as a designation of their underlying common unity.” Yet, they had to admit that “the conception of a triune God is a mystery which cannot be solved by human reason.” In contrast, Paul had clearly recognized the danger of such contamination and ‘perversion of the good news’ when he wrote to the Galatian and Colossian Christians: “Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy [Greek, phi·lo·so·phi′as] and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.”—Galatians 1:7-9; Colossians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:22, 23. -Mankind’s Search for God, chap. 11 pp. 261-265


    Critics of Jehovah's Witnesses will often zero in on the early development of the organization for any flaws without taking into consideration the environment that surrounded Charles Taze Russell and his contemporaries. There wasn't the kind of guidance as explained in Acts 8:26-31:

    However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Rise and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Ga′za.” (This is a desert road.) With that he rose and went, and, look! an E·thi·o′pi·an eunuch, a man in power under Can·da′ce queen of the E·thi·o′pi·ans, and who was over all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. Acts 8:26-31

    There were Christendom's Churches, the polytheistic religions in various eastern cultures and some new religious movements such as the Seventh-day Adventists, a group the early Bible students distanced themselves from:
    “The Second Advent Church” people, and many in other denominations, interested in the Lord’s coming and expecting him in the flesh, have turned their attention to 1881, and feel confident that they will see Jesus with their natural eyes this year. Their hopes are based partly upon an old rhyme called “Mother Shipton's prophecy,” which concludes:

    “The world unto an end will come,

    In eighteen hundred and eighty-one.”
    The WATCH TOWER never claimed that the body of Christ (congregation of Christ) will be changed to spiritual beings during this year. There is such a change do sometime. We have not attempted to say when, but have repeatedly said that it could not take place before the fall of 1881. -Zion's Watch Tower May 1881 p. 5-6
    Using the term "new light" is appropriate upon acquiring new understanding, especially in terms of prophecy and how the Bible relates to world events. This was possible for these men only because of the fulfillment of the promises about guidance by God’s holy spirit. (Joh 15:26, 27) God's spirit wasn't the seal of infallibility, but such help enabled them to recall Jesus’ instructions and teachings, to clarify points of doctrine, and to be progressively guided “into all the truth” revealed to them at that time period.

    MrFreeze posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 05:49:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 528 of 4031
    Joined 5/29/2010

    Truth doesn't change. I'm fine with them admitting mistakes but when you've made so many mistakes in the past, don't be upset when I don't accept everything you say. The problem is they don't put the blame on themselves. They blame their followers. Their followers have wrong expectations they say. Well they were listening to what you said without question! Of course they would have wrong expectations if you were putting those expectations into their mind.

    aqwsed12345 posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 05:54:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 45 of 66
    Joined 10/23/2010

    Were the Early Christians Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    The Alleged "Apostasy" Of Christendom

    A recent Watchtower magazine expounds the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ view that orthodox Christianity ("Christendom") underwent a great apostasy after the death of the apostles: "The death of the apostles removed a restraining influence, allowing a widespread apostasy to develop. (2 Thessalonians 2:7, 8) An organization grew up that unworthily professed to be God’s congregation. It falsely claimed to be the holy nation anointed with God’s spirit to rule with Jesus."

    The Witnesses believe that the influx of pagan converts brought in doctrines and concepts from Greek philosophy and religion which were then integrated into the Christian faith, resulting in such "false" teachings as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the immortality of the soul, and eternal punishment in hell. According to the Watchtower Society, Christendom lived in darkness for 18 centuries after this apostasy. Yet they believe there were always individuals who were faithful to divine truth — a truth more fully unveiled when their founder, Charles Russell, began to study the Bible in earnest in the 1870s. To support this view, Watchtower literature regularly cites passages from the church fathers to demonstrate that, even after the apostasy, there were some who believed as Jehovah’s Witnesses do today.

    In light of this line of argumentation, it is worthwhile to examine the writings of the early church fathers. If indeed such writings reveal that early Christians believed as Jehovah’s Witnesses do today, then surely a reevaluation of orthodox Christian teachings is needed. If these writings fail to support Watchtower claims, however, then one must conclude that Jehovah’s Witnesses represent a new religious tradition of the late 19th century, with no historical connection to apostolic Christianity.

    The body of literature of the postapostolic church is substantial, and a full review would be outside of the scope of a limited survey such as this. The most critical period is that prior to the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325, because it is historically closest to the apostles. Part One of this series will examine writings from this period that relate to the question of whether the church underwent a great apostasy. It will also investigate what the church fathers say about one of the most critical doctrines of the Christian faith — the divine nature of Christ. Part Two will review other important doctrines of the faith, such as the nature of the Holy Spirit, the soul, and the fate of the wicked.

    Did a Great Apostasy Occur?

    Was the true faith taught by the apostles lost or corrupted within the first generation after the apostles? If so, then the true faith was not successfully transmitted anywhere in the evangelized world of the first and second centuries — including churches established by the apostles, with leadership appointed personally by them. A "great apostasy" would require an extraordinary event: the simultaneous loss of faith by an entire generation of Christians throughout the civilized world. Included in this apostasy would be disciples of the apostles themselves, as well as those who witnessed the thousands of martyrs who, just a short time previously, refused to deny Christ, either explicitly or by worshiping pagan gods.

    A great apostasy, wherein the doctrines of Greek pagan philosophy replaced apostolic teaching, would most likely have begun in areas where the church was accepting a large number of converts with backgrounds in Greek religion and philosophy, such as Alexandria, Egypt. The prominent western churches established directly by the apostles, such as those in Rome and Antioch, would likely have fallen into heresy more slowly. But the historical facts do not support this (or any other) scenario of a "great apostasy." Had a great apostasy begun immediately after the death of the apostles, as the Watchtower claims, a mixture of "true Christianity" (i.e., Watchtower–type teachings) and "pagan heresy" (i.e., orthodox Christian teachings) would be discernible in the literature of the early church, which was widespread in its geographical points of origin.

    Is it possible that all the writings of the followers of the "true faith" were completely destroyed by the paganized church? Such a view is highly improbable. Many manuscripts have survived from Gnosticism (a widespread religious movement of this period which combined elements of Greek paganism and eastern mystery religions), despite several centuries of concerted attack and condemnation by the church. Yet not a single document exists pointing to a group who believed as the Jehovah’s Witnesses do today.

    The absence of such early "Watchtower" literature causes one to doubt the existence of the so-called "faithful and discrete servant class." After all, the stated purpose of these 144,000 anointed servants in Jehovah’s plan is to provide "meat in due season" — that is, literature that imparts "accurate knowledge" about the Bible. If these early Jehovah’s Witnesses were true to the kingdom gospel, handed down to them by the apostles, they would have written sufficiently to provide the faithful with an understanding of the Scriptures. Keep in mind that the Watchtower Society teaches that the Scriptures cannot be properly understood without such aids. Yet where is the Watchtower literature of the first and second centuries — or for that matter, of any century prior to the 1870s? Its absence is most telling, and highly damaging to the claim of a general apostasy with just a few of the dedicated faithful surviving.

    Perhaps the most compelling argument against a universal early apostasy may be found in the commissioning and empowering of the apostles themselves. If a universal apostasy occurred immediately after the death of the apostles, we would have to judge the apostles as incompetent or negligent evangelists who utterly failed to accomplish Jesus’ commission to make disciples. Such an apostasy would reflect poorly on Jehovah God as well, whose "holy spirit" was unable to preserve His followers for even a single generation.

    There is, therefore, no reason to believe that a great apostasy occurred following the death of the apostles, with the resulting loss of the "true" Christian faith for over 1800 years. This conclusion seems undeniable in view of the Great Commission, the power of the Holy Spirit, the absence of literary evidence for an alternative group of believers with a gospel similar to that preached by Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the implausibility of the required simultaneous loss of faith by an entire generation of geographically dispersed Christians.

    Leolaia posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:09:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 15511 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002
    The WATCH TOWER never claimed that the body of Christ (congregation of Christ) will be changed to spiritual beings during this year. There is such a change do sometime. We have not attempted to say when, but have repeatedly said that it could not take place before the fall of 1881. -Zion's Watch Tower May 1881 p. 5-6

    IIRC Russell was not being honest here....I'll have to check.

    M JeffT posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:21:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 5099 of 6968
    Joined 6/4/2001

    From reading in context it seems evident that Proverbs 4:18 is talking about the spiritual growth of the individual, not changing doctrines of a religious body. The scriptural test is simple, if some one claiming to speak for God tells something that is not true, his teaching is false and should not be accepted. I expect your going to tell me that the Watchtower doesn't claim to be a prophet. If that is the case, why should I listen to them at all? Either they speak for Jehovah, or they don't.

    PS, even if you are right and Jehovah's Witnesses are the one and only true religion, at Armageddon you're going to be just as dead as everybody else on this board, because you aren't following orders. Having rebelled against your God, you're just as apostate as the rest of us.

    M smiddy posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:46:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 346 of 4012
    Joined 3/30/2007

    If the Apostacy began circa 325 A.D. and "GOD" doesn`t do anything about it till the late 1800`s ,am I the only one who sees something wrong with that?

    What about those millions of people who have gone through" "HELL "on earth,defending an apostate religion,being put to death in such torturios conditions,and suffering ......,and all we hear,........ is silence from an ALMIGHTY GOD

    Whether it be Roman Catholic ,Eastern Orthodox,Greek Orthodox,Polish National Catholic Russian Orthodox.,Protestant Reformationists,Church of England,Lutherans etc.etc.

    The "GOD" of the bible has been conspicously silent over all these centuries

    I have some new light

    Maybe the God of the bible, doesnt exist

    smiddy

    Bungi Bill posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:46:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 123 of 807
    Joined 11/9/2010

    Real scholars of the bible - NOT the pseudo, Watchtower Society type "scholars" - are in agreement that Proverbs 4:18 is indeed talking about an individual's spiritual development.

    N.H. Knorr is credited with seizing on this bible verse in an attempt to justify the WTS's frequent changing of doctrines:

    - not to mention its frequent need to revise its interpretations of bible prohecy, when these have failed repeatedly.

    Well has this so-called "brightening light" been more accurately described as a "Flashing Light", like the WTS is unable to make up its mind.

    Better call in the electricians!

    Bill.

    M jwfacts posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:37:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 5577 of 7827
    Joined 6/25/2005

    You are spot on. New Light is completely reasonable as justification for a religion teaching crap. The only pitfall to your argument is that since every religion claims to be representatives of God, all religions can invoke this shallow excuse as applicable to themselves.

    Juan Viejo2 posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:44:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 238 of 886
    Joined 6/17/2009

    New light means that as we go forward we will have a broader understanding of the details and nuances of the Bible's teachings.

    What the Bible means is that it like being in a room where more lamps are added and the room gets brighter and everyone can see clearer.

    What the Watchtower means is that the bulbs keeping burning out and new ones have to replace them. That the lamps quit working and new ones are made to replace them. That someone forgot to pay the electric bill and God has turned off the power.

    Sorry - new light? Hardly...

    JV

    mamalove posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:46:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 604 of 972
    Joined 8/23/2010

    Was it ever determined by IP or however Simon figures these things out, if Spade is a former JW apologist who used to go under a different name?

    Amelia Ashton posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:13:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 160 of 1903
    Joined 11/2/2010

    I heard this analogy about the light getting brighter and brighter which made so much sense to me that I could then start to see more clearly myself.

    There is a chair in a very dark room. As more light shines on the chair the shape becomes more and more obvious until we can see it is indeed a chair. Then as the light gets brighter and brighter we can see more and more clearly the details of the chair ie, the colours texture and grain of the wood. However, at no time did the chair turn into a table. It remained a chair and certainly did not flip flop between chair and table at any time!!!

    Aussie Oz posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:14:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 1398 of 3755
    Joined 11/12/2009

    Hay spade

    all you ahve to do is read Proverbs chapter 4.....ALL OF IT not just the bit the WT use.

    when you realize that they have taken it out of context, broken their own cardinal rule of scripture application, all the reasonings and published pages are worthless.

    The foundation of 'new light' itself is rotten therefore so is the house built on it.

    very simple and all the cut n pasting in the world doesn't change it.

    oz

    M possible-san posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:19:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 1239 of 1485
    Joined 6/18/2008

    Spade.

    Why do you always reproduce (Copy and Paste) from that blog?
    Are you the author of that blog?

    Well, are you an active Jehovah's Witness?

    Surely, you are a defender of the JW's doctrine.
    I feel that the address of that blog is silly, though.
    That is, "watchtower...org."
    http://www.watchtower21.org

    Has not that address itself made a fool of the Watch Tower society?


    In my opinion, probably, on the Internet, it is better that you do not defend the Watch Tower society.
    On the Internet, the WTS does not want their followers to defend the Society.
    (You should see the past KMs.)

    Such their feature is the reason why they are generally called a "cult."

    possible

    nugget posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:49:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 1219 of 3887
    Joined 11/22/2009

    spade same old same old. Using the watchtower to defend the watchtower is pointless. It has already been exposed as poor research and twisted interpretation of scripture. I would no more turn to them for advice about scripture than I would use the very hungry caterpillar as a diet manual.

    designs posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:10:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 3771 of 18387
    Joined 6/17/2009

    Ding posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:08:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 1633 of 5015
    Joined 8/27/2010

    My problem with the WTS' "new light" was stated by Charles Taze Russell in the February, 1881 Watchtower, p. 188:

    "A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. 'New light' never extinguishes older 'light' but adds to it. If you were lighting up a building containing seven gas jets you would not extinguish one every time you lighted another, but would add one light to another and they would be in harmony and thus give increase of light: So it is with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another."

    Of course, the WTS has had new light on new light since then...

    M wobble posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:16:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 3897 of 5745
    Joined 2/20/2008

    Yup, the WT's Noo Lite is whatever they are teaching today, totally ignore what was said in the past, even if your kids died because of it, and tomorrow it will all change again !

    Prov 4 v 18 evidently refers to this strange process (please ignore the context of this verse).

    So when exactly are JW's teaching truth ? truth does not change, yet their teachings do constantly.

    You don't think what they are calling "Light" or "the Truth" now could be a crock of s**t do you ?

    donuthole posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:38:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 509 of 830
    Joined 4/26/2009

    I believe as individuals follow the Word of God, who is Jesus, there is indeed growth and development. The issue is where the religions take this verse and applies it to their continually shifting teachings and imply that the source of their doctrinal tumult is God himself. God is not the author of confusion. The Watchtower inherited the concept of "new light" from the Adventists that similarly used the term to whitewash their own failed teachings. Within the Watchtower, "new light" is used not just for changes in teaching and doctrine but as banner for any kind of organizational change, large and small. The individual must receive this "new light" as from God, to not embrace it is grounds for expulsion from the congregation an apostate. When changes or flip-flops occur and "new light" becomes "old light", the Watchtower is remiss to say that they were wrong and the failure was their own. This casts God in a bad light, implying that is he the capricious author of these numerous changes. Whereas they claim that light continues to grow, per the verse in Proverbs, their doctrinal flip-flops call to mind a switch being flipped on and off. Again rather then humbly accept the error as their own, the Watchtower, applies the illustration of a sail boat tacking, changing direction from side to side, as it moves toward its destination, and again claim that this inspired by God.

    Mad Sweeney posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:40:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 3905 of 6961
    Joined 11/2/2009

    Yup, the WT's Noo Lite is whatever they are teaching today, totally ignore what was said in the past, even if your kids died because of it, and tomorrow it will all change again !

    This is what makes the Borg a dangerous cult. No religious organization has a monopoly on truth. They all have something to offer alongside their many weaknesses and faults. But most normal relgions don't endanger the lives of their members as Jehovah's Witnesses and other mind control cults do.

    A club has a right to make its own rules. No club has a right to endanger lives; the right to life is an inherent human right that the Watchtower violates. They're therefore an international criminal organization.

    tec posted Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:03:00 GMT(1/31/2011)

    Post 3777 of 12939
    Joined 3/5/2010

    What Donuthole said.

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