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Why I think Jesus spoke against Organized Religion

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:27:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    This is going to be a short essay on a point I have been thinking about for a while now.

    Jesus explicitly stated in the Gospels NOT to judge. I think this a grossly overlooked statement from Jesus from the Witnesses and a lot of Christian denominations.

    Judging could be defined as figuring out what's right or wrong for another person. It's a pretty simple concept really, and Jesus warned against it.

    Organized Religion BY DEFINITION creates doctrine and policy, some enforce them more than others (like the Witnesses).

    To create (or interpret) doctrine and initialize policy IS TO JUDGE OTHERS. By creating what is "Right" you are also creating what is "Wrong."

    By defining what is Wrong is judging IF the definition transcends individuality.

    Reading the Bible and using it as a guide is NOT judging as long as you read it for yourself. It's one thing to share what you have learned with others, which is NOT judging by itself.

    But the SECOND you create an Organization around your ideas and enforce them you are JUDGING in the most grandest way, and therefore are REJECTING the teachings of Jesus.

    The Witnesses have a plethora of information and Bible commentary of how the Bible teaches that God REQUIRES an Organization, when in the end when it REJECTS Jesus' CORE teachings.

    Therefore it is my guess that ALL Organized Religion rejects Jesus.

    -Sab

    M leavingwt posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:30:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Therefore it is my guess that ALL Organized Religion rejects Jesus.

    Well, that is actually a judgement.

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:34:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Well, that is actually a judgement.

    Good thing I am not a follower of Christ

    -Sab

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:35:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Plus, LWT, I referred to it as a GUESS. I'm not sure how an admitted guess can be a judgement.

    -Sab

    tec posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:42:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    I think you can make observations without judging someone. (although those observations can certainly be false) Judging is more like saying 'you are evil and you are going to hell/or die at armageddon'.

    "This woman is a witch." (not necessarily a judgment, though perhaps a lie)

    "You deserve to be condemned to hell for being in league with Satan, and burned at the stake." (this is a judgment - and even further - "WE condemn you to death.")

    Judgment could also be deciding whether someone is good or bad. Rather than just if this is a good or bad action.

    (gotta run to work now, or I'm going to be late )

    Tammy

    PSacramento posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:46:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Jesus was very much against the hypocracy that religious heirachy creates.

    Organized religion is a funny thing, everyhting needs an "organization" of some sorts of course but man tends to equate heirachy with organization and THAT is the problem.

    Jesus was clear that there was NO MASTER ( other then him)and that no one was any better than anyone else, but he did seem to have "favorites" ( Peter John and James it seems) and he loved Lazarus and his family deeply, but this just shows that he FELT deeply for certain people.

    He may have given Peter the "headship" of the apostles, but when he converted Paul he didn't send him to Peter or even to Jerusalem.

    The whole organized heirachy started with the 2nd and 3rd generations after the apostles and direct disciples died, it started with giving the Bishops ( elders) far more power then they needed and then it grew from their.

    It's funny that the GB of the JW's is based more on the "apostate organization" of the church than the free flowing apostolic union that was shared by ALL believers in the 1st century.

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:51:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    It's funny that the GB of the JW's is based more on the "apostate organization" of the church than the free flowing apostolic union that was shared by ALL believers in the 1st century.

    I think that's what Jesus encouraged. Open forum.

    He knew we were not gods like him in any way. There is no room in our psyche for absolutes, especially philosophical absolutes. Open honest forum is the most condusive to coexistence, harmony and happiness.

    -Sab

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:55:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Another thing, LWT. There is a difference between Organized Religion and a fellowship.

    The difference is the former enforces it's policies and the latter doesn't. If my OP was a judgement I think it could be merrited because I am judging an Organized Entity not the individuals.

    -Sab

    PSacramento posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:56:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Quite correct Sab and if one reads the NT one sees that fellowship between believers and how they didn't always agree with things even at times being at opposite ends of the spectrum, but they they tried as a group to come to some decision that was in betterment for ALL.

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:58:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    F'ing Paul. He so f*cked up the Bible, IMO.

    His writings are riddled with judgements and policy enforcement. It gives so much ammunition to the Organized Religions.

    What do you know, he was orginally a PHARISEE!

    -Sab

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:59:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Maybe his letters wern't meant to be turned in the a Constitution though.

    -Sab

    PSacramento posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:02:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Dude, Paul was probaly the most vocal AGAINST organised religion.

    Look at the first chapters of Galatians.

    PSacramento posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:05:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Paul made specific calls and judgments against specific acts and people.

    Look at the case of the guy schalacking his fathers wife ( his own step mother), EWWW !

    It wasn't really a judgment call at all even, what he was doing was wrong according to the biblical Law that the church was founded on and he otld them to make it clear to him, to try their best to convince him what he was doing was wrong but that IF he persisted in doing WHAT HE KNEW to be WRONG, that they would h ave to kick him out. You will note that is the ONLY time in ANY and ALL of his latters ( that we have) that Paul suggested such a thing.

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:08:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    I wasn't referring to Paul being an advocate of Organized Religion. I was talking about all his policies, his "do's and don'ts" paved the way for many rigid belief systems, no?

    -Sab

    PSacramento posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:13:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    That can be taken that way, but for every don't Paul had 100 passages of love so it all depends on what you are looking for it seems.

    People looking for a way to control others will see the passages that Paul wrote dealing with a specific problem, liek the case in 1Corinthians Imentioend above, while others that read the NT with love and the HS see his passages of forgiveness, love, repentenace, see his passages where he states that he is nothing and was the formost of sinners and hoe Jesus showed compassion on even one like him.

    It all depends on what is in your heart when you read the Bible.

    miseryloveselders posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:16:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Excellant thread.

    M ProdigalSon posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:20:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    I think the idea of not judging is probably best illustrated in what Jesus said about little children. They have no preconceived notions about what is good, bad, ugly, pretty, right, or wrong. They simply observe. It's exactly what the Dalai Lama teaches.

    On the other hand, once a person has been "instructed" by teachers, parents and mentors about all these things, which may very well vary according to what part of the world they are in, they start judging everything according to preconceived notions.

    An example might be, "Ahmadinejad said Israel should be blown off the map, so he is evil." Well, that's a judgment based on incomplete data. Did the person actually hear him say that, in their own language? Or was it a mistranslation foisted onto gullible Americans by a Zionist-controlled media and oil barons in the White House interested in turning Iran into an ashtray and stealing their oil?

    Things like these can lead to World War III. This is how egos cause suffering.

    ~PS

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:22:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Well said Sac. Your words inspire me to look more into Pauls writings.

    -Sab

    sabastious posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:24:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    An example might be, "Ahmadinejad said Israel should be blown off the map, so he is evil."

    To further your point, what if he DID say that, does that mean he is EVIL? Interesting discussion.

    -Sab

    M BurnTheShips posted Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:05:00 GMT(11/22/2010)

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    Why I think Jesus spoke against Organized Religion

    Please cite a specific scriptural passage to demonstrate this.

    And by the way, any passages you do cite were written by members of an organized religion, and preserved until the current day by members of an organized religion.

    BTS

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