Are we saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

Saved by WORKS or by FAITH?

What does the Bible teach? And what do Jehovah's Witnesses teach? What do you believe about this?

Let's have a really good discussion and debate about this important Bible topic.

Here is my position:

* We are saved only by God's grace (undeserved kindness) through faith in Christ as Lord, God, and Savior (because of His sacrifice for our sins). Works play absolutely no role in us obtaining the free gift of salvation and eternal life. However, after we have been saved and the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then the Spirit working in and through us and will produce good fruit and good works in our lives.

* Works are the RESULT of salvation, not the CAUSE of salvation.

* The Epistle to the Galatians also teaches that we cannot REMAIN or KEEP salvation by our own good works or human effort. It is all done by God's Spirit.

Very important verses to examine here are Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans chapters 3 and 4, Romans 11:6, and James chapter 2.

Even though I don't agree with your position, I believe your position makes more sense than the JW position on this bible topic.

I think your position more accurately reflects what is written in the bible.

My position is that there is no supernatural kind of salvation available to us humans.  I also feel that good works should be motivated by a strong desire to be a positive influence in this world, and to be of service to your fellow man. 

The Oracle

Legalists and extremists like jws are saved by outward works that they call acts of faith, but they cant be acts of faith as they are done to please men and their stupid man made rules.

We get a thread on this subject about once a week.

 Works play absolutely no role in us obtaining the free gift of salvation and eternal life.

Undisfellowshipped,

But it did for those to whom Paul wrote such comments. How so? Because to them works was another way to describe their religion, their belief system and up until now they had it for all their lives. Such works was their way to salvation as it was for their ancestors. Works was Paul's shorthand for the Law and such works sometimes called dead works were a way of life to them as were other words for Law like circumcision or Moses. Now such works would not save them we learn. Such believers that were still keeping this Law had to change and Paul was now doing that by his instructions to them. But there were also problems among those not keeping the Law like Gentiles for the most part that had no such bondage. What was that? As you said: "We are saved only by God's grace (undeserved kindness) through faith in Christ as Lord, God, and Savior (because of His sacrifice for our sins)." This was also a problem for many such believers. Why? Because belief in Christ means that we keep His commandments and this this goes far beyond just believing. Our Lord expressed this truth like this: Joh 14:15  “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And again: Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. Now James who finally came to this conclusion would use works to reflect such statements made by our Lord when he said:  Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Or again: Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. Yes, it takes more than just believing, it takes an effort that James is now calling works. This new use for this word works brought out that such effort was expected of them. This is a natural result of our faith and such thinking is also embedded in the words faith or believe even if we do not realize it and this is also reflected by our Love of Christ

Joseph

 

In the Bible (and that is assuming that one still believes the Bible as a valid source of guidance), grace is what saves us.  Works play no role in salvation, except that they result from faith and grace.  This is one place where the witlesses blow it--since they claim to adhere to the Bible, and the Bible says that it's grace and not works, their saying that it is works (or implying that works are necessary) makes them liars.

A million opinions available on this subject and everyone one of them is right in their own eyes.

When i hear gods voice from heaven if he is alive and well, maybe i'l listen to him and not a book that people claim it was written by him.

Works play no role in salvation, except that they result from faith and grace.

WTWizard,

So they do play a role as you admit and we can see them. It is just that such works are not works of Law. This is what James now meant as well. He used a word they knew very well and now used it another way: Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. This faith did not include the Law anymore. Now words like Grace do not change this. This is a story with many parts explained separately but intended to be understood collectively and we do not pick and choose which one we prefer. After all we did not write what was written and explained to us.

Joseph

I agree with WTWizard.  It's grace that saves you.  And faith in that grace.  It's not works.

In "Crisis of Conscience" you will find an example given by Ray Franz.  You can have a man in a high position of command who abides by every law, yet that doesn't make him loving, or sincere, and that gives no proof of what his real beliefs are.  Such a man can do a lot of evil within the frame of the law.  That is simply not Christian.

Jesus is supposed to have come to put an end to legalism.  That is why he spoke so bad of the Pharisees, whose mindset was that it was works that mattered.  The Catholic Church once said that you could buy salvation.  Remember the sale of indulgences?

It is not law that matters, either.  Jesus said that the sabbath had been made for man, not man for the sabbath.

Doing the right thing just because "it is required", or it will save at the time of Armageddon, or gives you standing in the congregation,  has no value at all.

I agree that this is the same evil that plagues many other churches, not just the JWs.

By the way, if it were works that saved you, then many churches would have serious trouble.  A Moslem who did everything a Christian did, except belonging to a Christian organization (which can't be the definition of "works") would be saved, then.   How come?  Does the organization not matter at all?

 It's not works.

dgp,

That is not the point. I did not say that faith saves you nor did James. He said faith without works is dead. Maybe it can be understood if we grasp that many who claim to have faith use it like Catholics use a religious relic. They feel protected by such claims but otherwise do as they please and ignore the  commandments of Christ.

Joseph  

Yes, faith without works is dead.  But works don't save you.  Grace and faith do.  Works come from the good in your heart, and you do those works for their own sake, not because someone imposes them on you.

Placing magazines because you have to put in your time and get the elders off your back, for example, will not save you.

you do those works for their own sake, not because someone imposes them on you.

dgp,

That is almost what I was trying to say but there is one exception. The commandments of Christ were imposed upon us and we do what is expected of such a disciple. Otherwise we are just pretending as I stated earlier. 

Joseph 

The WTS gives lip service - but only lip service - to those scriptures that describe salvation as being a free gift from God.

However, that continuous stream of counsel from the WTS about "always doing more" could - and usually does - conveyan entirely different message to those on the receiving end.

By far the most JWs would argue strongly that salvation is earned by works :

- not surprisingly, given the constant motivational talk from the WTS to get out there and sell more literature!.

In a discussion with anybody that knows anything about the bible, though, the average JW would quickly get tripped up over this point (as I can recall happening to me).

this cartoon summarizes my understanding of Works vs grace

I like that cartoon. Thanks!

Faith without works is dead. You might believe, but it is meaningless to believe and not to act upon what you believe. For instance if you believe in GOD but yet do not adhere to His Laws and Principles your faith is worthless.......

t.f.d.s.

Neither.

Isn't having faith in something a kind of work? You're doing something... believing. What if you don't believe? What if you can't believe?

I believe God's going to save us because he loves us and he's good. Not because we're doing something or believing something.

I believe God's going to save us because he loves us and he's good. Not because we're doing something or believing something.

GOD Loves righteousness and Hates badness...........if you are doing bad what is GOD going to think of you? Only the "Righteous" will dwell in The Kingdom of GOD.......

t.f.d.s.

everyone is "doing bad"