This Disturbs Me Most of All

No, it's not the "claw hand"! What disturbs me most of all is The Potter's Shards.

Any coin collector will tell you that the "imperfect" coins are the most valuable. Any art historian will tell you that the value of a painting is it's originality and uniqueness and the talent that can only come with time, suffering, and perserverence.

It is the oddities and quirks in one of a kind pieces that make them a delight and a treasure.

So why is it that this Potter has no appreciation for uniqueness? Why does he destroy everything that has some blemish or imperfection? Why does he require uniformity among his subjects?

Our imperfections are just a part who we are. Imperfections contribute to our uniqueness. Why should our different ways of approaching life or situations be considered "character flaws"? Why is lack of conformity to a religious doctrine considered to make us bad people and worthy of destruction?

Supposedly, the first command is to "love God". Yet, when I read about this god, he is a vile murderer all through the old testament according to what has been written. He requires people to kill their children and their animals for him to prove their loyalty and obedience. He displays rage and even admits he is a jealous god, even though we are advised that jealousy is a negative character trait. From what I read, this god plays favorites with certain groups of people; he makes deals with certain groups and to hell with the rest of us. This is not a god who deals with individuals on a personal basis.

This god is despicable. I cannot love this god.

Has god been misrepresented to us? 

Otherwise, why is this Potter looking for Stepford people who display uniformity? And for what purpose? Why must his people call themselves 'slaves'? Is the point to breed an ultimate slave race?

I can't get past the first commandment; but the second commandment, to 'love thy neighbor as thyself', comes natural to me.

Is this Potter the one who created us? Can you love a god who requires you to kill those you love as a test of loyalty? Wouldn't the action required by god be a breach of the second commandment from Jesus?

You've got two separate points here that are both really, really good.

Great points cameo-d, the God of love is not going to destroy 6 billion plus of those he has created......

(if that it the acceptable rate, he has a lot of process control work to do)

Why does he require uniformity among his subjects?

All those dudes behind the white hair are identical. The Watchtower's BorgMessiah. You will be assimilated.

''Is this Potter the one who created us? Can you love a god who requires you to kill those you love as a test of loyalty? Wouldn't the action required by god be a breach of the second commandment from Jesus?''

This is surely disturbing.

You know what I hope ... I hope the FDS actually commands the followers to go ahead and kill the evil apostates.  I want them to do it themselves.  Did Jehovah not command Samson to take up the jawbone?  Did Jehovah not command Jacob to march around His enemies before destroying them?  So, let them kill the 6 billion of us "apostates" with their own hands.

The point of the parable is not perfection or conformity.  The point is to remove defects that are a detriment to the usefullness of the vessel.  These were practical items, not artwork.  In the ANE, pottery that was fragile or wouldn't hold water were worthless.  The potter is trying to make vessels of value.  Because the vessels are hand-made, each one is unique

God, as the potter, wants to make something valuable of us - this is the sum-total of the parable, nothing more.  Remember it is a parable to illustrate a point, don’t read too much into it.  When the pot is broken down, the clay was still fresh, it was not yet fired as depicted in the above illustration.  The potter would use the same clay to make another pot.  The potter/God works hard to make us valuable.

It is deceitful of the WTS to equate this parable with the Big A, I presume that is the point of the illustration.

Jehober of the WTS is a twisted caricature of the God of the Bible.  I have wrestled with many of the same things you bring up in these forums.  I am happy to help you with questions as best as I am able.

Sacoulton: "  So, let them kill the 6 billion of us "apostates" with their own hands."

Sacoulton: They already do in their own way. Shunning is just a dry run. They will never actually lift a hand to do physical harm. BUT what I do think will happen, is that apostates will be silenced and physically killed by a dominionist army that operates in stealth and darkness.

The greatest sin of the JWs and the other religionists will be that they did not look deeper to understand that it has always been these magicians who speak on behalf of god. They will be content to believe that their invisible god has killed us.

Whether a person agrees with any Witness beliefs or not anyone should know they are decidedly in the pacifist camp, and officially state they are not to be participants in their concept of Armageddon except for the 144,000 and angels, that's their take.

designs:

 they are decidedly in the pacifist camp, and officially state they are not to be participants in their concept of Armageddon except for the 144,000 and angels, that's their take.

Just because JWs don't pick up a sword or a gun and go to war, it doesn't make JWs truly pacifists.  Their general willingness to participate in shunning and make no apologies for doing so, is an emotionally and socially violent act of nothing less than pure, unadulterated contempt.  Even soldiers understand the tragic consequences of lives lost in war, and many of them are haunted by wartime violence.  With JWs, however, the contempt for Apostate™ enemies ranks right up there with every genocide in known history.  If they could kill us, you can bet your sweet bippy that they would, without hesitation, with the kind of sick and twisted pleasure that Rwandan genocidaires took in eliminating their enemy "cockroaches".

We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. "Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee."-Deut. 13:6-11, AS.

Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship.
~ Watchtower, November 15, 1952.

Thank you Scully.  As usual you hit the nail on the head.

And thanks cameo-d.  Great thread! 

Scully you've gone from one superstitious religion to another set of fears and superstitions.  Try not sleeping with one eye open.

In other words time to grow up.

Designs--you are deceiving yourself.

The behavior of the JW camp is called "passive aggression".

Look it up and educate yourself.

Scully is 100% correct in her assertion.

And your ad hominem attack is also an example of aggression and the low mentality often associated with this type of behavior.

I'm with scully on this. Many JW's would baulk at physically having to kill us, but they would do it if the GB told them that Jehovah required it. Lets face it, many JW's baulk at shunning, they don't like doing it, but they still do precisely because the GB has told them jehovah requires it. Killing us is just the next step.

If the law allowed them to do this half of us would be dead and the rest in hiding.

This is another illustration "proving" that Jehovah has the "right" to do whatever He wants with us, and destroy those who are not suitable for whatever He wants without regard of whether that "vessel" would have been better suited for something else.  For example, if God wants you to plunge the whole world into the Second Dark Ages, and you are more suited to make the world a better place for all, He will force you into plunging the world into the Second Dark Ages, and you will be forced to do it or die trying.  And, if you refuse, He has ways of eliminating you or bringing your attempts to escape your assignment to failure.

Effectively, Jehovah is reducing us to mindless pieces of clay.  You take a lump of clay and mold it into whatever you want.  That lump of clay has absolutely no consciousness, no feelings, and no sense that it could have been something better--that is what gives the potter the right to mold it into whatever he wants, NOT that the potter has the ability to do so!  A person, on the other hand, has a personality--Jehovah is nothing more than an Almighty Lowlife Scumbag for insisting that people do what He wants them to, when they know they could do better in a "forbidden" assignment.  And destroy and frustrate those who try to live up to their potential.

I wonder if it's Jehovah Himself that is leading us into a One World Totalitarian system where everything we do is what they tell us to.  Then He will get the one leader into a deep religious state, forcing said religion on everyone on the planet, and then effectively seizing control of all mankind (and squashing anything that resembles another revolution).  I would not want to live in that world--for sure, no problems will ever be solved by that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag's assigning people to miserable "lives".

Can't take the inner scrutiny, that's typical. Witnesses have their multiple problems, I'm not promoting them.  Compare the violence in the Fundamentalist world. Century after century of trinitarians killing each other. They have thrown mud on the name of Jesus.

Superstitious people and a god they imagine who roasts people. No wonder its led to so much violence. Don't get involved in the Cults of Fundamentalism, Evangelicals, Baptists et al.

JWs are known to die rather than take up arms. I'm 100% certain that even if all the gb asked it of us now we wouldn't do it, it is too ingrained in our whole identity that we do not kill, yet how many of you would kill if your country asked it of you now? since you vote and salute flags these days do you accept the killing your chosen leaders do in wars?

Reniaa

conspiracy theorys are just superstition gone nuts on here please try not to buy into all the worst anti-witness propaganda for the sake of your own sanity guys.

Mad dawg:

The point of the parable is not perfection or conformity.  The point is to remove defects that are a detriment to the usefullness of the vessel. 

"removal" and "smashing to bits" are two very different things. I see removal as a delicate tweezer operation, not something that requires an iron mallet!  "defects" is in the eye of the beholder! It is a rather ambiguious term.  As far as our "personality flaws" we gradually remove them ourselves as we learn the hard lessons of life.

These were practical items, not artwork. 

So are human beings to be compared with a practical item and not a work of art? Does god look upon his human creations as simply "items" like things? No wonder he seems to have no genuine affection for his creation.

In the ANE, pottery that was fragile or wouldn't hold water were worthless. 

Obviously you have not read the story about the two water jugs. One held water and the other had a hole. The man still drew water and carried both vessels for a distance. He planted seeds along the path and as he carried the jug with a hole, it watered those flowers. A true creator would respect the differences and appreciate different talents.

The potter is trying to make vessels of value. 

If the potter "makes" them into what he thinks is valuable, then where is the freedom of choice for the vessel?

Did your mother ever make you practice piano but it wasn't what made you happy or the direction you would choose for yourself. "Making" vessels of value is equivalent to absolute control when used in these terms.

God, as the potter, wants to make something valuable of us - this is the sum-total of the parable, nothing more. 

Then what of the "free-will" argument? Moot in this case, I suppose! 

Remember it is a parable to illustrate a point, don’t read too much into it. 

Actually, you do have to read deeper into parables because they have hidden meanings. They are not entirely meant at surface value. When you take parables at face value without understanding the deeper meaning, you get religions based on a faithful discreet slave that meant something entirely different!

To paraphrase Erasmus- 'Salvation does not hinge on the Filioque but on the fruits of the spirit'.

Trinitarians have butchered each other over knat picking. What a wearisome and superstitious group.

They make Witnesses look mild in comparison, and Witnesses have issues.

The ultimate reality of a Supreme Being is that you are ok, and any bugaboos in ideas will all be resolved. Stop the nonsense of Hell.

What disturbs me is the 100,44000 written on the book. What's that all about?