Nisan 14 or 15? April 8 or 9?

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    M undercover posted Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:31:00 GMT(3/30/2009)

    Post 6322 of 13150
    Joined 9/25/2002

    A little help from the scholarly types would be appreciated here...

    The JW Memorial is on April 9th this year. The Society teaches that Jesus had Passover with his apostles and then the Last Supper (one incident split into two but that's another argument) after sundown Nisan 14. Jesus was then betrayed, tortured and impaled (crucified - whatever) the following day, still Nisan 14th before sundown (which would usher in Nisan 15).

    http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980315/article_01.htm

    According to the Hebrew calender, Nisan 14th falls on April 8th this year. I'm assuming that Nisan 14th starts at sundown the 8th and goes through April 9th to sundown.

    http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/year=2009&v=1&month=4&yt=G&nh=on&nx=on&o=on&s=on&i=on&vis=on&d=on&set=on&c=off&geo=zip&zip=&m=72&.cgifields=nx&.cgifields=nh&.s=Get+Calendar

    So if Nisan 14 is on the 8th, after sundown, why is the Memorial on the 9th(Nisan 15th) after sundown?

    M sir82 posted Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:35:00 GMT(3/30/2009)

    Post 2740 of 9158
    Joined 5/17/2005
    According to the Hebrew calender, Nisan 14th falls on April 8th this year.

    The Society has their own system for calculating dates. They believe they are using the calendar as it was in use at the time of Jesus' death.

    And their method is anointed with Holy Spirit, dontcha know? They don't care what current Jews use to calculate the date.

    M undercover posted Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:45:00 GMT(3/30/2009)

    Post 6325 of 13150
    Joined 9/25/2002

    Thanks for the reply sir...

    So, not only does the Society know more about the instrument used in Jesus' death, the meaning of the Last Supper and how the sharing of bread and win only applies to them, but they've got dibs on how God's calender really works?

    Well, hell...

    Leolaia posted Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:48:00 GMT(3/30/2009)

    Post 12532 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002

    The Society and the modern Hebrew calendar calculate the dates in very different ways, so it is no surprise that the dates don't match up. The Hebrew calendar is calculated and is based on a long-range mathematical cycle of months which vary between 29 and 30 days. This cycle, in fact, is extremely precise and accurate over the long term, but it means that the 14th day of the month does not always correspond to the date of the full moon. The Society claims to base its date on the ancient method of observation on when the first sliver of the new moon became visible over Jerusalem. In reality, it is really another calculation method but one based on the short-term timing of lunations. However, since the Society bases the Memorial date on the timing of the full moon, I suspect that they do not fuss with when the new moon would have been observationally visible, but simply go with the astronomical timing of the full moon. As viewed from Jerusalem, the full moon occurs at 5:56pm (UT + 2) on April 9, 2009. Ergo, April 9 is the date of the Memorial.

    M garybuss posted Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:18:00 GMT(3/30/2009)

    Post 7354 of 7501
    Joined 10/8/2001

    The Watch Tower celebrates a meal. Christians celebrate the resurrection. I celebrate anything and everything.

    M JosephMalik posted Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:45:00 GMT(3/31/2009)

    Post 1340 of 1467
    Joined 5/2/2002

    According to the Hebrew calender, Nisan 14th falls on April 8th this year. I'm assuming that Nisan 14th starts at sundown the 8th and goes through April 9th to sundown.

    Undercover,

    This is where most of the confusion is regarding Jewish days. Nisan 14th starts at sundown of the 7th when it is getting dark and ends at sundown of the 8th. You see their dates stated the sundown before the date shown on a Jewish calendar and went from sundown to sundown. Their calendar does not show this start but only shows the daytime portion of the 14th to conform more closely with our calendar which is of course the 8th and the longer period of their date. Absolute confusion for many working with this information. Some never seem to grasp it. And words like day and date must be used with care. If you do something like killing a few thousand Lambs on the 14th in the afternoon (after noontime) the way they did back then and then cleaned and roasted them, it would be pretty late and you would barely have time to eat them before the date changed to the 15th. In fact they never ate the Lamb on the 14th as it was always eaten with unleavened bread which was forbidden until the 15th. And if someone was running late, they could still prepare food on the 15th as this special Sabbath day featured this provision by Law. The 15th was a Sabbath day you see as was the 21st. I have a Talmud reference verifying that these special ceremonial days were Sabbath days and I needed this because so many so called scholars deny this fact. And Passover was 7 days long instead of just one meal and one date. Now this causes massive problems for all denominations and their teachings. I cannot help that, and can only relate what is verifiable from the text. As a side note one web site I checked puts the full moon on: April 9 14:58 GMT Thu. This means that the 15th actually started on their calendar at the sundown before April 9 or April 8 when it was on its way to getting to this fullness. And this varies around the world and may require adjustment to your calendar if such is the case since this moon is our only proof for this time for wherever we live.

    Joseph

    M JosephMalik posted Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:56:00 GMT(4/1/2009)

    Post 1341 of 1467
    Joined 5/2/2002

    Undercover,

    It does not look like anyone is wondering about what happened to the 14th? After all the WT is supposed to be observing the Memorial on the 14th the same as the Jews did or at least the way Jesus when He supposedly died yet their calendar does not match the moon. Well the truth is their teachings are all based on the teaching of other denominations and scholars and not the Bible. You see nothing happened on the 14th and our Lord did not die on the 14th as they teach. He ate the Passover with His disciples and this could only be done after the animals were killed, cleaned and cooked on the 14th. This rememberance could therefore only be done when the date changed to the 15th the date when Passover week started and on which unlevened bread was served and it was also the start of a Sabbath day. Huh? We know that our Lord did not die on a Sabbath day don't we? But who knows that there would be another day of Preparaton during Passover? Yes, there was another some six days later when the Passover, the Unleavened bread as it was sometimes called would be made from new grain. And there would now be a Sabbath day on Friday as well as Saturday that year. Some 48 hours of Sabbath as this happened often. Arguments about what such long Sabbath days were called prevail but it was a common occurence for other such 7 day observances as well. This cannot be helped when cerimonial and weekly Sabbath days begin on Saturdays. The Jews know. John called it a high Sabbath or Great Sabbath and it is plural in the Greek texts. But this is only scripture after all so lets conceal it in translation and say this means something else. That is the way nearly all literature on Passover is handled. That is the way the WT does it. If you enjoy being lied to then go ahead and observe it with them.

    Joseph

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