Universal Sovereignty

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    M monophonic posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:14:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 400 of 771
    Joined 5/25/2007

    I can't remember if I read this here, but i was reminded from another thread.

    Universal Sovereignty is pretty much the whole explanation for why God permits suffering, correct?

    Why would a God of love make it last so long? Why would humans even question his sovereignty if He actually stepped in and started straightening things up in this world?

    I read somewhere recently, maybe here, that Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him from heaven. One third is quite a lot. Of perfect beings. Who have seen and witnessed many aspects of creation? Why would that many be 'fooled'? Even that many imperfect humans wouldn't be fooled if God was love and showed himself to be caring and perfect as the bible says. If the imperfect humans had witnessed everything written in the bible and how Jehovah dealt with the situations.

    And, comparing the harsh, killing God of the Old Testament (Hebrew scripts) to the loving Jesus arrangement of the New Testament (Greek scripts), it seems schizophrenic.

    Here's a quote from Vonnegut:

    "And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look back where all those people and their homes had been. But she did look back, and I love her for that, because it was so human."

    Personally, I feel like I can finally embrace my humanity. That I don't need to strive for being 'an example', even though that was pounded into me for way too many years by parents, elders and the wtbts. Just like the renaissance, when artists finally dumped religious art and embraced the human form and bodies made by God. Some of them saw it as paying tribute to God for his creation.

    So, he created us, now we're all imperfect and dying, why not embrace our own humanity?

    And where in the hell are you God? If you're there, make things right. And if I die and I can book a five minute interview with you, I'm going to let you know how pissed off I am at you and that I feel ok with being pissed at you, because I'm human and you've supposedly given us these holy texts that are so open to misuse and interpretation and let all this suffering happen. Weren't there Watchtower articles written re: the Holocaust about people who knew about the horrific concentration camps, but didn't do anything to stand up against them, made them accountable as well. Or it could've been another example. Even the wtbts and their rules on sharing in sin by not telling on a sinner.

    But, God is standing by, watching this stuff happen and not stepping in. We don't even need a Holocaust or wars to show us how messed up humanity is...there's a lot more in general...and yet, God stands by, complacent?

    That's just some random thoughts I've had recently. Comment as you like. But I feel a little more caffeine bubbling in my continued ease with being Agnostic, with a twist of lemon.

    I also suggest watching the amazing BBC series, "Unreported World", especially the recent episode on India. Grab them off of bittorrent or newsgroups if you're out of BBC range. We're lucky we have a chance to even discuss this stuff while people around the world spend every waking moment surviving worse than animals.

    Reading them a scripture like...just look at the lillies of the field (can't remember the rest), would get a well deserved slap across the face.

    Might have been appropo for those in need in say, uh, year 30 a.d.

    Really taking a step back and thinking about the 1/3 angels going with Satan's side....that just doesn't make sense unless there's some real validation to Satan's accusations.

    If there is a Satan that is.

    If the God of the bible is actually God.

    If the bible is truth.

    Then those 1/3 of the angels, however many billions or so that is, made very thoughtful, contemplative decisions to shack up with Satan. Having years and years of experience and learning beyond what we can even fathom, and they still went, 'nah, we're going with the dude that makes snakes talk'.

    M jwfacts posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:40:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 3442 of 8014
    Joined 6/25/2005

    Even whilst I trusted the Watchtower Society, I came to realise the Watchtower doctrine of Universal Sovereignty was senseless.

    If Jehovah created everything, then Satan would never accuse him of being unworthy of worship. And even if Satan had, there would be no question in anyones mind that Satan's accusation was without basis and that Jehovah had every right to destroy him on the spot. It appears to be a myth from a time when Jehovah was considered just one of a pathenon of Gods.

    Lets say the Sovereignty issue is correct, there still is no logical reason for why Jehovah did not end all suffering as soon as the Ransom was paid. No wonder the early Christians expected the second coming in the first century.

    M nvrgnbk posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 12:38:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 7858 of 10737
    Joined 2/20/2007
    Satan and The Watchers are thus symbols of rebellion against
    tyrannical god and moral concepts which stifle human ascent.
    We
    take our
    stand on the side of rebellion leading to liberation from slave
    religions,
    moralities and ideologies, the chief one being in the West at this time
    Judaeo-christianity, with Marxism and the Puritan money ethic
    (ideological
    liberalism) being excrescences of this heritage.
    As advocates of continuing human ascent - biological, spiritual
    and
    intellectual - we adherents of the Left-Hand Path embrace the spirit
    of the
    fabled Order of Watchers for Liberty and progress. We shout: Hail
    Satan!
    Hail the Watchers!

    Those crazy Satanists!

    LOL!

    bobld posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:18:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 96 of 938
    Joined 11/2/2006

    If Universal Sovereignty is the issue per WBTS than Satan is winning hands down.Lets compare it to a football game.At the end of the game the team with the highest score wins.Ex..Jets 35 packers 28,Jets win.World 6.7 billion(Satan per WBTS) JW'S 6.7 million. Satan wins hands down.

    About Lot's wife per WBTS those people won't get a second chance.So this loving God don't give a shit about childern,just like the WBTS and their coverup about sexual abuse.

    Bob

    M The-Borg posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:25:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 118 of 427
    Joined 8/22/2007

    6000 years of suffering for universal sovereignty. Thats a lot of suffering to prove a point.

    M Rooster posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:47:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 658 of 813
    Joined 9/16/2005

    The angles are millions if not trillions of years old by our standard of measuring time. The only reason God made the human race was to draw out the angles with bad desires. The angles that did not want to continue subject to their creator. God knew there were certain heavenly children of His that would rebel. His universal sovereignty was never a question.

    M nvrgnbk posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:52:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 7864 of 10737
    Joined 2/20/2007

    The angles are millions if not trillions of years old by our standard of measuring time. The only reason God made the human race was to draw out the angles with bad desires. The angles that did not want to continue subject to their creator. God knew there were certain heavenly children of His that would rebel. His universal sovereignty was never a question.

    LOL!

    Sorry, dude. Couldn't resist!

    Of Angels and Angles by The Decemberists

    There are angels in your angles
    There's a low moon caught in your tangles
    There's a ticking at the sill
    There's a purr of a pigeon to break the still of day

    As on we go drowning
    Down we go away
    And darling, we go a-drowning
    Down we go away
    Away

    There's a tough word on your crossword
    There's a bed bug nipping a finger
    There's a swallow, there's a calm
    Here's a hand to lay on your open palm today

    As on we go drowning
    Down we go away
    And darling, we go a-drowning
    Down we go away
    Away

    There are angels in your angles
    There's a low moon caught in your tangles

    M BFD posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:11:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 1605 of 3231
    Joined 3/1/2007

    It's like we are just some freaky little science experiment. If any of this crapola is true I think we are on some cosmic back shelf, forgotten and collecting dust.

    BFD

    M Narkissos posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:24:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 7833 of 9516
    Joined 9/27/2003

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/143002/1.ashx

    M Gopher posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:30:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 6825 of 10951
    Joined 3/18/2001

    Universal Sovereignty is an idea spoon-fed to millions of gullible people known as Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Universal Soveeignty is a weak fallacy built on mythical stories of antiquity that likely never happened.

    In my estimation, it would be reasonable to say God is either non-existent or far off on some other project in a distant corner of the universe. To set this earth-experiment in motion and be absolutely unavailable to offer any real assistance is being a poor excuse for a god.

    A sane alternative to the "why does God allow suffering" problem is the postulation that God doesn't exist, or else set things in motion but has no interest in maintenance of earth or the society on it.

    JCanon posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:08:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 2376 of 1335
    Joined 3/7/2001
    Why would a God of love make it last so long? Why would humans even question his sovereignty if He actually stepped in and started straightening things up in this world?

    Good question. The answer is: So YOU could be born. Realize it or not, it has taken this long to produce you, specifically YOU. YOU wouldn't have been born in ancient times. YOU wouldn't have been born in the Roman times or the Middle Ages, not in Colonial times. Only now. You are the product of your wonderful mom and dad who got to get together to make YOU, specifically YOU. So maybe God thought: Hmmmm, that's quite a long wait, close to 6000 years. But now that you're here he might have been thinking that long wait was worth it. Until maybe yesterday?

    At any rate, here's another way to look at it. The only way to save mankind was to let them be born in an imperfect world. The longer God allowed the more potential people could be born. Now everyone is not going to get eternal life, obviously, perhaps only two-thirds of the entire population of the world who has ever lived, but the longer god waits before starting the millennium the more choices we will have on Judgment Day.

    I read somewhere recently, maybe here, that Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him from heaven. One third is quite a lot. Of perfect beings. Who have seen and witnessed many aspects of creation? Why would that many be 'fooled'? Even that many imperfect humans wouldn't be fooled if God was love and showed himself to be caring and perfect as the bible says. If the imperfect humans had witnessed everything written in the bible and how Jehovah dealt with the situations.

    Also, good observation. When you think of the rebel angels, think of them as someone with the philosophy of some "skin heads." Think of them as similar to the white community that came out en masse to protest the first black girl entering an all-white college. If you had so much hatred for someone you considered so beneath you, so unsophisticated and insulting to you, then you might decide you'd rather not live at all. A couple of movies carry that explanation, amazingly, like "Constantine" and the "Prophecy" series, where basically the angels are upset that God created man in his image and ultimately will make some of them, the "Bride Class" who will marry Christ, more glorious beings than the current angels themselves. Certainly that's a consideration.

    Another example would be found in the parable of the prodigal son, where God, so happy to see his errant son returns, makes him the heir of the household. He gives him a new robe, "the best one," (Luke 15:22), meaning better than his older brother's. What is the older brother's reaction? They can't stand it. They don't understand it! How could God put this younger brother who threw away everything ahead of him. So he refuses to enter into the house.

    Or the parable about the vineyard workers where the 1st-hour workers agreed to a day's wage which they earn over 11 hours, but workers coming in later are paid the same. The 1st-hour workers are upset because they were expecting "more." But God did them no harm by giving the other workers what he wished so that he would seem a generous man. But you understand how some of those 1st-hour workers felt. Someone else in this situation might have angrily refused to accept anything rather than be insulted like that.

    Thus SOVEREIGNTY is very much part of it. You hit the nail on the head. God's right to knock on your door and give you a million bucks! You're soooo delighted. And you're so happy. You go on a cruise, quick your boring job, etc. All while your house is being sold because you have a newer one now. But when you get back you find out that everybody on your block was visited by God too and each of them got $10 million each. You were the only one that got just $1 million. Where did that joy go? You see, happiness is subjective. In this case, it has to do with being too nosy perhaps because if you were not so intrested in what God was doing with the neighbors, which is God's own business, then you would have thought God was the most generous and wonderful God ever! So that's a sovereignty issue. God can do what he wants to with what is HIS to give. He didn't harm you by giving you only one million. You're still upset until you perhaps dig a little deeper and find out it was all a test to see if you'd appreciate your own gift.

    So the angels that rebel against God are not "fooled" they are just angelists! They don't like the idea that man were created so similar to them and they have to share the universe with them, be respected and loved, because they think humans are so uncultured. Thus some people don't want to live if they can't live in an all-angelic community. They'd rather not live at all and move out once God lets humans into the neighborhood. Of course, God feels like 'Good riddins!" they were bringing down the neighborhood anyway.

    So it's not up to Satan or the other angels to be all up into God's business. If he wants to make the least the greatest, then that's HIS sovereign choice. Persons who are humble and meek are not really that concerned about comparing what God does for them compared to what God does for someone else.

    And where in the hell are you God? If you're there, make things right. And if I die and I can book a five minute interview with you, I'm going to let you know how pissed off I am at you and that I feel ok with being pissed at you, because I'm human and you've supposedly given us these holy texts that are so open to misuse and interpretation and let all this suffering happen.

    Interesting, but I guess you haven't read your Bible. Ever hear of JUDGMENT DAY? It's just for YOU. Everybody gets to come back and compare notes. All those unanswered questions you have you get to ask. Once you hear all the explanations then you might see things God's way.

    As far as "where" is God. He's around. I've spoken with him personally myself. He even arranged a miracle so I could show people what the promised "sign of the son of man" in the heavens looked like for the anointed whom it appeared to. So God is around, especially now, for those who actually believe the Bible and are concerned about pleasing him. Otherwise, he hides out from the wicked, big time.

    So it boils down to being whether you're a "rich man" or not. Some people who are rich love it and wouldn't have it any other way. If they had to be an everyday person and dust and mow their lawns, they would rather die. All that is totally beneath them. So the kingdom is not for them. But if you're a surfer guy, then the kingdom is for you because you get to just live off the cocanuts and surf all day with your buddies. That big 14-bedroom house you own up on the hill you never see that much anyway, so you're not that concerned if it falls off those stilks and slides down the hill...

    Here's the "sign of the son of man", created by angels in the clouds, in case you were wondering where God was.

    http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/clouddove.jpg

    He's definitely around, but more directly with the anointed, especially these days since 1947.

    JCanon

    JCanon posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:11:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

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    Joined 3/7/2001
    6000 years of suffering for universal sovereignty. Thats a lot of suffering to prove a point.

    The only way people could be saved is if they had a chance to be born. So aren't you glad God waited this long, rather than bringing Armageddon in 1807 AD? (I'm just taking a wild guess here that you're not over 200.

    JC

    M Rooster posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:28:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 659 of 813
    Joined 9/16/2005

    He's definitely around, but more directly with the anointed, especially these days since 1947. JCanon
    Do you really believe this?

    M Awakened07 posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:29:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 348 of 1043
    Joined 8/1/2007
    Why would a God of love make it last so long? Why would humans even question his sovereignty if He actually stepped in and started straightening things up in this world?

    Good question. The answer is: So YOU could be born. Realize it or not, it has taken this long to produce you, specifically YOU. YOU wouldn't have been born in ancient times. YOU wouldn't have been born in the Roman times or the Middle Ages, not in Colonial times. Only now. You are the product of your wonderful mom and dad who got to get together to make YOU, specifically YOU. So maybe God thought: Hmmmm, that's quite a long wait, close to 6000 years. But now that you're here he might have been thinking that long wait was worth it. Until maybe yesterday?

    How long is God going to have to wait? What about Paul Smith that will be born on March 24th 30567? Will God wait for HIM to be born, specifically HIM? HE wouldn't have been born in our time.

    I find it curious that God has waited 6000 years in order for ME, specifically ME with my personality, to be born.

    ME - an atheist that he'll kill anyway. Strange fellow. Somehow I doubt I was worth the wait.

    I hope he gives Paul Smith a chance, though.

    M Paralipomenon posted Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:54:00 GMT(10/4/2007)

    Post 1090 of 2149
    Joined 11/29/2006

    I've mused that if the bible account is true, God may be missing from the Angel's realm as well.

    A realm of spirit creatures following the concept of a creator. Satan may have been the most vocal atheist and that's why so many followed him. Upon discovery of humans on earth, there was a moral dilemma, convert the little fleshings to their religion or let them develop on their own.

    The "angels", viewing humans as God's creation wish to inform them of their great honor, the "demons" saying to just let them be. Both sides make contact, pollute our history and eventually strike a truce to just let us decide for ourselves.

    An interesting, baseless fun theory.

    M monophonic posted Fri, 05 Oct 2007 03:11:00 GMT(10/5/2007)

    Post 401 of 771
    Joined 5/25/2007

    i personally think the whole 'he's waiting for more to be born and accept him' is a crock. just like another poster said, so, we have to wait until 3400 ad or something for more people to be born.

    not all humanity is bad, in fact a very large portion have good intentions and are imperfect. we can't be held responsible for errors in judgement in this F-ed up world.

    think about 3rd world countries and even poorer countries and kids dying in gunfire everyday that they're participating in....just so more can be born and 'saved'?

    so, if God would just straighten everything out and 'take over', and if the theory of destiny isn't considered, then people having sex before or after He has actually done something isn't even a concern.

    millions of my sperm brothers died in the back seat of my dad's car, so even being alive is a throw of the dice, whether things are good or bad. do we have to continue to experience suffering just to be born? i think it's a wtbts explanation that still glosses over the real issue.

    and, regarding 1/3 of the angels, comparing that to humans in any way does not make sense. skinheads? c'mon. perfect, spirit beings. why would perfect spirit beings, serving under the throne of God, in all his glory, throw that away for the cause of Satan if that cause was doomed? one third of perfect spirit beings?

    i'm not saying that's something that actually happened, just what the bible says.

    i don't think there's an answer that anyone can come up with unless it's the wtbts sweeping it under the rug to focus on how they're the FDS and all will be exposed at the appointed time.

    "Interesting, but I guess you haven't read your Bible. Ever hear of JUDGMENT DAY? It's just for YOU"

    you're pretty antagonistic in your 'answers', just like active jws, born agains, evangelicals, it's all about 'knowing' and not about interesting discussion. i have read the bible and continue to read different versions of it. ..when in the end no one really knows. i'm reading it more as a literary exercise these days.

    "He's definitely around, but more directly with the anointed, especially these days since 1947."

    uh, what?

    anyway, most of my questions are directed to a God who seems complacent, not to a human's interpretation of what the spirit world is all about, b/c we don't know, and that's ok.

    F fresia posted Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:31:00 GMT(10/5/2007)

    Post 214 of 425
    Joined 5/11/2007
    It's like we are just some freaky little science experiment. If any of this crapola is true I think we are on some cosmic back shelf, forgotten and collecting dust.

    Sadly I'm starting to think the same...

    F fresia posted Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:51:00 GMT(10/5/2007)

    Post 215 of 425
    Joined 5/11/2007

    JC says...

    Also, good observation. When you think of the rebel angels, think of them as someone with the philosophy of some "skin heads." Think of them as similar to the white community that came out en masse to protest the first black girl entering an all-white college. If you had so much hatred for someone you considered so beneath you, so unsophisticated and insulting to you, then you might decide you'd rather not live at all. A couple of movies carry that explanation, amazingly, like "Constantine" and the "Prophecy" series, where basically the angels are upset that God created man in his image and ultimately will make some of them, the "Bride Class" who will marry Christ, more glorious beings than the current angels themselves. Certainly that's a consideration.

    Satan rebeled before Adam sinned and before well before the bride class was known, so it appears they fell before any knowledge of the bride class, so not sure I would agree with that.

    I think Satan was a trickster and not all angels were created at the same time, they would have been created over time, so Satan was probably one of the first and very, very in the know angels, he probably turned his attention to the most vunerable the youngest and immature angels the babes so to speak, like he did with Eve, she was the younger and less knowledgable, same as he attacks children.

    So those that left may have been very young and far less knowledgable than Satan, maybe they thought he was hip and cool, who knows, juvenile angels following their mentor idol Satan.

    Or the other thing could be that I think it says a third of the stars not angels when it refers to Satan taking them, stars could mean more prominant ones in the heavenly arrangement older ones, but became proud like Satan and wanted what Jesus had or (Michael as some may call him) Jesus being the first born the only begotten son, where all things were made for him and through him, maybe Satan was a jealous brother and wanted what Jesus had, and the others noses were also out of joint. this pride would have taken a long time overtake them to do what they did.

    Just maybe there were 144,000 stars that fell and Jehovah want to replace them.

    F fresia posted Fri, 05 Oct 2007 07:11:00 GMT(10/5/2007)

    Post 216 of 425
    Joined 5/11/2007
    He's definitely around, but more directly with the anointed, especially these days since 1947. JCanon

    especially with the anointed, thats just to much. Some that claim to be of the anointed have done nothing, what have they suffered, arent' they suppose to die a mayrte's death?

    the great crowd and especially women have done much more than the anointed, and what of the many that have lost their lives because of the WTS mistakes, Malawi for one, look at the torture to b/s and kids there, and the anointed were sitting in their tower being feed and looked after making decisions that cost thousands their lives, give me a break.....what about the anointed telling the brothers not to have vaccinations, some objected and were disfellowshiped only to have the rule changed, but in the meantime it bought miser and hardship on thousands of innocent b/s. And Jehovah is especially with the anointed. What sort of justice is that.

    When are you going to get it through you're head that is is about the sheep, the annointed are suppose to be servants, Ez 34 and 13. What is with all this crap about God is especially with the anointed, they themselves said in last monthes w/t Qand A that they have no more holy spirit than any other b/s. How is Jehovah with them more then?

    It is not about you it is about Jehovah's sheep, Jesus left the 99 and went after the one lost sheep that is how precious the sheep are to Jesus and Jehovah, Christ died for everyone, and he is the mediator between his sheep, not just the 144,000 and nor is the GB mediator or the idol org. There would be no annointed if there were no sheep.

    I find youre answer insulting.

    M Iron Rod posted Fri, 05 Oct 2007 08:49:00 GMT(10/5/2007)

    Post 48 of 78
    Joined 9/12/2007

    JC........come on,be honest. Don't you really mean that God waited all this time for you to be born? You seem to be one of his best friends.

    No offense meant, but...where do you come up with this stuff?

    Narkissos, thanks for linking to my thread!

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