Independent Thinking

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    M Jeffro posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:35:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 1304 of 4495
    Joined 5/21/2005

    I decided to do a search of the Watchtower Library CD on the phrase 'independent thinking'. Only three times is it ever spoken of as being a good thing. And those three instances are quite telling about the insidiousness of all of the other times that JW publications consider independent thinking to be such a bad thing.

    *** w57 8/1 p. 469 par. 7 Will You Get to Live on Earth Forever? ***
    Independent thinking is difficult, unpopular and even suspect. Thought conformity is the order of our day. To seek solitude for meditation is frowned upon as antisocial and neurotic.

    *** w58 8/1 p. 460 Dawns a New Era for the Irish ***
    To ask a sound religious question is a demonstration of lack of faith in God and the church, according to the clergy. As a result, the Irish people do very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear.

    *** w72 3/15 p. 170 The Delight of Jehovah Will Succeed ***
    Man possesses a mind and a heart, not controlled automatically by instinct, but capable of independent thinking and reasoning, making plans and decisions, exercising a free will, building up strong desires and motivation. That is why you are capable of exercising the fine qualities of love and loyalty, of devotion and integrity.

    All of the other times it is mentioned, it is claimed that independent thiniking is "dangerous", and even "demonic" and "Satanic". Sounds a bit like control to me. And I think the writer of the 1958 Watchtower quoted above would have to agree.

    carla posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:46:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 2615 of 7099
    Joined 4/23/2005

    Independent thinking is difficult, that's why so few people do it. (there's a quote that goes something like that somewhere)

    As for the wt mentioned, I think 'new light' would show that independent thinking is a dangerous thing. I have a whole folder on this subject but packed it away awhile back. Wouldn't be needed by my jw as independent thinking would only tickle his ears or whatever the assinine jw phrase is.

    M ninja posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:11:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 33 of 5372
    Joined 10/5/2006

    Brilliant research Jeffro mate....I will be showing a few folk independent thinking is a "good thing"....more ammo against them....cheers.....ninja

    M LittleToe posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:58:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 15709 of 14978
    Joined 9/12/2001

    Caught in another hypocrasy, huh?

    The word-association has now been completely made between independant thinking, apostacy and demonism.

    F RAF posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:07:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 642 of 1253
    Joined 1/11/2007

    Please Jeffro can you (out of you CD) give me a bunch of other their litterature which associate "independant thinking" with apostasy and demonisme ?.

    M gumb posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:13:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 21 of 80
    Joined 1/28/2007

    Did they actually ever stop to think that if it hadn't been for independent thinking there wouldn't have been a Watchtower Society? Russell certainly was an independent thinker when it came to religion. Of course, they applaud converts from other religions for their independent thinking when (as they see it) it leads them into the WTS, but not when it leads them out!

    Golf posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:46:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 2715 of 2672
    Joined 2/12/2004

    I guess there is NO independent thinking going on when the slave class have their meetings!!!! Yeah right!!!!

    I like the middle quote about the Irish Catholics doing very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear. Hmmmmmm, look who's calling the kettle black.


    Golf

    M Confession posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:12:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 1437 of 2130
    Joined 6/29/2004

    This is a really great find. Thanks.

    M Zico posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:30:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 414 of 1218
    Joined 4/24/2006

    'I like the middle quote about the Irish Catholics doing very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear. Hmmmmmm, look who's calling the kettle black.'

    Like those articles on propaganda. Or when they criticise the Catholic Church for covering up for peadophiles. They have NO shame.

    M Qcmbr posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:51:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 1289 of 3439
    Joined 7/31/2004

    Is there really such a thing as independent thinking? Is it possible - I would list the following counter claims to free thought:

    1/ The limits and cultural pressure of language.
    2/ Peer pressure.
    3/ The force of the machinery of state (education, law, media, workplace standards, religion.)
    4/ The inability of the human brain to filter out all other human influences (and the impossibility and undesirabilty of such a position) and then inability of the brain to not be chan.ged by its experiences. You are the sum of what you have been - a pastiche rather than a whole - you're different today than you were yesterday.

    The only free thinking I believe is possible is the ability to see which cage you've made your mental home in.

    M Gopher posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:01:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 5293 of 10951
    Joined 3/18/2001
    Is there really such a thing as independent thinking?

    Interesting question.Maybe a more useful term is "freedom to choose among a variety of thoughts".

    THAT kind of freedom is what the Watchtower Society is trying to limit among its adherents.

    They will say that humans are "free moral agents". However.....if you do not demonstrate that you agree with THEIR thinking on matters, then you are judged to be morally or spiritually deficient.

    M greendawn posted Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:37:00 GMT(2/15/2007)

    Post 8543 of 12085
    Joined 4/9/2004

    As usually they drift between two contradictory values not having a fixed position on these issues, wondering according to their interests each time. It's the mark of the crook. They hate independant thinking in their members.

    M AllTimeJeff posted Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:32:00 GMT(2/16/2007)

    Post 84 of 5826
    Joined 11/9/2006

    Some items about independence

    ***

    w8511/1pp.6-7IndependenceFromGod—WhyNot?***

    Value

    ofAcceptingDivineGuidance

    Jehovah is "the happy God." (1 Timothy 1:11) He does not want to rob us of wholesome pleasure, excitement, or happiness. Think for a moment about the plainly stated words found at Romans 1:28-32. The results of independence from God bring only bad consequences, for the account states, according to TheNewEnglishBible:

    "Thus, because they have not seen fit to acknowledge God, he has given them up to their own depraved reason. This leads them to break all rules of conduct. They are filled with every kind of injustice, mischief, rapacity, and malice; they are one mass of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and malevolence; whisperers and scandal-mongers, hateful to God, insolent, arrogant, and boastful; they invent new kinds of mischief, they show no loyalty to parents, no conscience, no fidelity to their plighted word; they are without natural affection and without pity. They know well enough the just decree of God, that those who behave like this deserve to die, and yet they do it; not only so, they actually applaud such practices."

    On the other hand, those who choose to follow God’s standards are encouraged to put away their old personality with its independent spirit and substitute for it a new Christlike one. The new personality includes becoming kind, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving. (Ephesians 4:20-32) And it is one that manifests the fruits of God’s holy spirit: "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control."—Galatians 5:22, 23.

    ***

    w856/1p.19par.13WalkWithConfidenceinJehovah’sLeadership***

    13

    Since ‘it does not belong to man to direct his step,’ we should be grateful for Jehovah’s leadership. (Jeremiah 10:23) Abraham and his devoted wife Sarah obeyed God and acted with faith. Boaz and Ruth complied with divine arrangements. Yes, and many other faithful men and women gladly accepted Jehovah’s guidance. (Hebrews 11:4-38; Ruth 3:1–4:17) Like earlier servants of God, then, we should shun an independent spirit, joyfully cooperate with God’s theocratic organization, and walk with complete confidence in Jehovah’s leadership.

    ***

    km5/02p.6par.4ModestyinDressandGrooming***

    4

    WhatDoYouIndicatebyYourDressandGrooming? The clothing that we wear and the way that we wear it make a definite statement about us—our beliefs, attitude, and intentions. The styles that we choose state who we are and what we stand for. We must never promote the debased thinking and conduct that is popularized by the world. Our concern is not whether a certain style is extremely fashionable but whether it is appropriate for one professing to be a minister of God. (Rom. 12:2) Rather than choose a look that flaunts an independent spirit or that suggests an immoral life-style, we want to show that we truly "glorify God."—1 Pet. 2:12.

    ***

    w808/1p.20pars.14-15Remain"SolidintheFaith"***

    14

    We have seen that one of the basic causes of apostasy is a lack of faith through destructive doubt, and that the word translated "doubt" also means "to distinguish." The apostate makes himself a decider of what is true and what is false, of what is "good and bad" in the way of spiritual food. He becomes presumptuous.—Compare Genesis 2:17; 3:1-7.

    15

    So to avoid falling away from the faith, the Christian should beware of a lack of faith, "the sin that easily entangles us," and "run with endurance the race that is set before us." (Heb. 12:1; 3:12, 19) Paul gives us this advice: "Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are." (2 Cor. 13:5) Paul is not inviting us to have doubts about "the faith," but to question ourselves, as to whether we are living up to the faith or not. Such honest self-examination should fill us with modesty and humility, thus protecting us from the independentspirit and presumptuousness of the apostate.

    ***

    w863/15p.18par.10AllowNoPlacefortheDevil!***

    10

    A brother insists on some extreme clothing or grooming style. The elders feel that he is not a good example and do not extend to him certain privileges, such as appearing on the platform to give instruction. He becomes resentful, claiming that others are trying to take away his Christian freedom. But what is behind such reasoning? Is it not usually pride, an independent attitude, or a rather childish desire to have one’s own way? While this seemingly is a small thing, a person reasoning in that way could "allow place for the Devil." But love and humility will cause us to dress and groom ourselves in a modest, acceptable way. We should want to do all things for the advancement of the good news and not to be pleasing ourselves.—Romans 15:1, 2; 1 Corinthians 10:23, 24.

    ***

    w947/1pp.22-23pars.20-21TheChristianViewofAuthority***

    20

    With regard to the respect we owe to those in authority within the Christian congregation, an interesting comparison can be made with the submission we owe the secular authorities. When a person violates a human law that God approves, the punishment meted out by "those ruling" is, in fact, an indirect expression of God’s wrath "upon the one practicing what is bad." (Romans 13:3, 4) If Jehovah is angry when a person breaks human laws and lacks proper respect for worldly authorities, how much more must he be displeased if a dedicated Christian flouts Bible principles and shows disrespect for fellow Christians who are in authority!

    21

    Rather than incur God’s displeasure by adopting a rebellious or independent attitude, we will follow Paul’s counsel to Christians in Philippi: "Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that you have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is the one that, for the sake of his good pleasure, is acting within you in order for you both to will and to act. Keep doing all things free from murmurings and arguments, that you may come to be blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you are shining as illuminators in the world." (Philippians 2:12-15) Unlike the present crooked and twisted generation that has brought upon itself an authority crisis, Jehovah’s people readily submit to authority.

    Bottom line. It's all about control, not independence..... Damn them all!

    rockhound posted Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:44:00 GMT(2/16/2007)

    Post 85 of 106
    Joined 2/26/2004

    Hi all, "The nail that sticks up, gets hammered down" It's sites like ours, that expose the reason that the Society comes down so hard on those who ask the dreaded Question "WHY", and "WHERE" in the Bible does it say that?"

    This information by Alan F and found at the address below has been very helpful in understanding why independent thinking is such a danger and threat to high control groups as the Moonies and Jehovah's Witnesses. Thank you Alan F for making this site available. I hope all Lurkers will check these articles out. Get out the pop and popcorn for this site, as it is just full of the dreaded Independent Thinking!!!

    http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/thinking-ability-and-watchtower.html#geo

    Thinking Ability and the Watchtower Society

    Comment:

    This is just a small portion of the above research.

    One man became a leader in the Korean based Unification Church of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, commonly known as the "Moonies." After leaving the church he wrote a book about his experience. The book stated:

    Another key aspect of thought control involves training members to block out any information which is critical of the group. A person's typical defense mechanisms are twisted so they defend the person's new [religious] identity against his old former identity. The first line of defense includes denial ("What you say isn't happening at all"), rationalization ("This is happening for a good reason"), justification ("This is happening because it ought to"), and wishful thinking ("I'd like it to be true so maybe it really is").

    If information transmitted .... is perceived as an attack on either the leader, the doctrine or the group, a hostile wall goes up. Members are trained to disbelieve any criticism....

    Loyalty and devotion are the most highly respected emotions of all....

    People are not allowed to talk to each other about anything critical of the leader, doctrine, or organization. Members must spy on each other and report improper activities or comments to leaders.... Most importantly, people are told to avoid contact with ex-members or critics. [ Steven Hassan, Combatting Cult Mind Control, pp. 62-65, Park Street Press, Rochester, Vermont, 1990.]

    Does this description not fit Jehovah's Witnesses perfectly? When people put into practice the defense mechanisms described above, are they not being dishonest with themselves? If you are dishonest with yourself, refusing to face the hard facts of reality, how can you be honest with others? How can you be honest with God? How can a person claim to love truth when he can apply his reasoning abilities to expose the fallacies of others but is incapable of applying them to himself? Yet experience shows this is exactly the way Jehovah's Witnesses are indoctrinated.

    I hope this information is helpful.

    ROCKHOUND

    M Jeffro posted Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:26:00 GMT(2/16/2007)

    Post 1305 of 4495
    Joined 5/21/2005

    *** w83 1/15 p. 22 Exposing the Devil’s Subtle Designs ***

    Avoid Independent Thinking

    20 From the very outset of his rebellion Satan called into question God’s way of doing things. He promoted independent thinking. ‘You can decide for yourself what is good and bad,’ Satan told Eve. ‘You don’t have to listen to God. He is not really telling you the truth.’ (Genesis 3:1-5) To this day, it has been Satan’s subtle design to infect God’s people with this type of thinking.—2 Timothy 3:1, 13.

    21 How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God’s visible organization. For example, God’s organization has from time to time given warnings about listening to certain types of immoral and suggestive music, and about frequenting discos and other types of worldly dance halls where such music is played and people are known to engage in immoral conduct. (1 Corinthians 15:33) Yet certain ones have professed to know better. They have rebelled against such counsel and have done what is right in their own eyes. With what result? Very often they have become involved in sexual immorality and have suffered severe spiritual harm. But even if they have not been so affected, are they not reprehensible if others follow their example and suffer bad consequences?—Matthew 18:6.

    22 This fact cannot be overemphasized: We are in a war with superhuman foes, and we constantly need to be aware of this. Satan and his demons are real; they are not mere figments of the imagination. They are “the world rulers of this darkness,” and we have a spiritual fight against them. (Ephesians 6:12) It is absolutely vital that we recognize their subtle designs and not allow ourselves to be overreached by them. Very appropriately, then, we will next consider how we can arm ourselves to fight against these wicked spirits.

    *** w83 1/15 p. 27 Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits ***

    Fight Against Independent Thinking

    19 As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: “This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe.” This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous?

    20 Such thinking is an evidence of pride. And the Bible says: “Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.” (Proverbs 16:18) If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: “Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God’s organization?” No, we cannot!—Compare Acts 15:2, 28, 29; 16:4, 5.

    21 When we consider the mighty spirit forces who are fighting against us, we must acknowledge that on our own we could not possibly win. Yet with God’s backing, and with the help and support of his organization—our worldwide association of brothers—we cannot lose. (Psalm 118:6-12; 1 Peter 5:9) However, we must never forget that we are in a spiritual war, and that wartime is no time to be relaxing, enjoying only leisure and the pleasures of life. Rather, it is the time for vigorous training, alertness and self-sacrifice. The enemy has been able to get some from among us to relax their guard, and these have become battle casualties. May this never happen to us! It will not if we keep on “the complete suit of armor from God” and “stand firm against the [crafty acts] of the Devil.”—Ephesians 6:11, 12.

    *** w66 6/1 p. 324 Intellectual Freedom or Captivity to the Christ? ***

    It seems that some in association with the early Corinthian congregation were disregarding Paul’s authority, looking at him according to what he appeared to be in the flesh, and neglecting to take into account his special commission from Christ. Today, too, there are those who, by their independent thinking, question Christ’s ability to have and use on the earth a specially appointed governing body of imperfect humans, to whom he has entrusted all the Kingdom interests or “belongings” on earth. (Matt. 24:45-47) When such independent thinkers receive counsel and direction based on the Bible, they incline to the thought, ‘This is only from fleshly men, so it is up to me to decide whether to accept it or not.’

    On this very subject, E. A. Dunlap, Registrar of the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead, speaking to a class of missionary students, recently inquired: “Do you look at it that way?” Then he continued: “If you do, then you are being infected by that spirit of independence with which Satan is infecting the whole world. So, to overcome this attitude, the thing to do, as the apostle Paul intimates, is to think, ‘Now, am I “bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ”?’”

    M DocBob posted Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:05:00 GMT(2/16/2007)

    Post 219 of 405
    Joined 5/2/2001

    The following is from my website. My webhosting software doesn't allow easly linking, so here's the whole thing:

    The phrase "Avoid Independent Thinking" appears as a subheading in the 1/15/1983 issue of "The Watchtower." For many years, the Watchtower has warned Jehovah's Witnesses of the dangers of "independent thinking." This article will explore the Watchtower's present view of independent thinking and how that view has changed over the years.


    The Watchtower has not always used the phrase "independent thinking" in a negative context. In the 8/1/1957 Watchtower, they were promoting independent thinking and criticizing those who were afraid to be alone with their own thoughts.

    7 Though not sought by crowds as Jesus was, his followers today are hard-pressed by modern living to find solitude for meditation. In many places in the world simplicity of living has been replaced by a life of complexity, with waking hours crammed with both important and trivial matters. Moreover, people today are developing an aversion to thinking. They fear being alone with their own thoughts. If other people are not around, they fill the void with television, movies, light reading matter, or if they go to the beach or park the portable radio goes too so they will not have to be with their own thoughts. Their thinking must be channeled for them, ready-made by propagandists. This suits Satan's purpose. He deluges the mass mind with anything and everything but God's truth. To keep minds from doing godly thinking Satan keeps them busy with thoughts that are either trivial or ungodly. It is tailor-made thinking, and the tailor of it is the Devil. Minds work, but in the way that a horse is led. Independent thinking is difficult, unpopular and even suspect. Thought conformity is the order of our day. To seek solitude for meditation is frowned upon as antisocial and neurotic.-Rev. 16:13, 14. - The Watchtower, 8/1/1957, page 469, para 7, "Will You Get to Live on Earth Forever?"
    In the 1958 Watchtower, they talk about how the Irish do little independent thinking because of the influence of the Church.

    Fear has a great hold on the people. People are afraid of what their neighbors, their friends, relatives and clergy might think if they were even so much as to read the Bible on their own. For centuries the clergy have dominated their lives, told them what they can read, what they should believe and do. To ask a sound religious question is a demonstration of lack of faith in God and the church, according to the clergy. As a result, the Irish people do very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear; but freedom is in sight. - The Watchtower, 8/1/1958, page 460

    While the 1957 Watchtower talked about how the world filled people's minds with Satan's tailor made thinking in order to keep them from independent thinking, just three years later the Watchtower says the following:

    Today the trend of this world is to seek independent thinking as the ideal goal, but even as the unrealistic thinking of a scientist who tries to ignore the law of gravity is doomed to failure, so also is the unrealistic thinking of those who try to ignore the fact of man's dependence on God. ."It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his steps." (Jer 10:23; Prov. 16:1-3) When men try to think independently of God, they set aside the perfect standard of goodness, righteousness, virtue and faithfulness and become victims of their own selfish, sinful inclinations and degrade their own thinking ability.-Rom. 1:21-32; Eph. 4:17-19. - The Watchtower, 2/15/1960, page 106-7, para 5, "Safeguard Your Thinking Ability"

    My, how the world changed in 3 short years.

    Now in the context in which the WT uses the term more recently. It would be nice if the WT did use the term to describe thinking indepent of Jehovah, but that is not really the case.

    It seems that some in association with the early Corinthian congregation were disregarding Paul's authority, looking at him according to what he appeared to be in the flesh, and neglecting to take into account his special commission from Christ. Today, too, there are those who, by their independent thinking, question Christ's ability to have and use on the earth a specially appointed governing body of imperfect humans, to whom he has entrusted all the Kingdom interests or "belongings" on earth. (Matt. 24:45-47) When such independent thinkers receive counsel and direction based on the Bible, they incline to the thought, 'This is only from fleshly men, so it is up to me to decide whether to accept it or not.' - The Watchtower, 6/1/1966, page 324, "Intellectual Freedom or Captivity to the Christ?"

    So they are saying that independent thinkers question, not the organization itself, but "Christ's ability to have and use on the earth a specially appointed governing body of imperfect humans,". I certainly do not question Christ's abilities in this area, only that the Watchtower Society is an expression of those abilities.

    In the 1/15/1983 Watchtower, there were two articles that dealt with indepenent thinking. In the first, under the subheading "Avoid Independent Thinking", the Watchtower said:

    How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization. For example, God's organization has from time to time given warnings about listening to certain types of immoral and suggestive music, and about frequenting discos and other types of worldly dance halls where such music is played and people are known to engage in immoral conduct. (1 Corinthians 15:33) Yet certain ones have professed to know better. They have rebelled against such counsel and have done what is right in their own eyes. With what result? Very often they have become involved in sexual immorality and have suffered severe spiritual harm. But even if they have not been so affected, are they not reprehensible if others follow their example and suffer bad consequences?-Matthew 18:6. - The Watchtower, 1/15/1983, page 22, para 21, "Exposing the Devil's Subtle Designs"

    So rather than questioning God's Word, the Watchtower says that independent thinkers question "the counsel that is provided by God's visibile organization."

    19 As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: "This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe." This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous? 20 Such thinking is an evidence of pride. And the Bible says: "Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling." (Proverbs 16:18) If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: "Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God's organization?" No, we cannot! -Compare Acts 15:2, 28, 29; 16:4, 5. - The Watchtower, 1/15/1983, page 27, "Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits"

    Again, independent thinkers are cast, not as questioning God Himself, but thinking they know better than the organization.

    In the world, there is a tendency to reject leadership. As one lecturer said: "The rising education level has improved the talent pool such that followers have become so critical that they are almost impossible to lead." But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God's organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. For instance, only those meeting Scriptural requirements are appointed as elders. (1 Timothy 3:1-7) They are trained to be kind, loving, and helpful, yet firm in upholding Jehovah's righteous standards. The elders adhere to Scriptural truth, 'holding firmly to the faithful word, that they may be able to exhort by healthful teaching.' (Titus 1:5-9) Of course, we should not magnify their human imperfections, for all of us are imperfect. (1 Kings 8:46; Romans 5:12) Instead of feeling frustrated by their limitations and treating their counsel lightly, let us appreciate and accept the Bible-based direction of the elders as coming from God. - The Watchtower, 9/15/1989, Page 23, para 13, "Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead"

    So the WT characterization has changed drastically since 1957. And most recently, it has not been geared toward thinking independent of God, but independent of the WT organization.

    F RAF posted Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:59:00 GMT(2/16/2007)

    Post 654 of 1253
    Joined 1/11/2007

    Thank you ATJ and Jeffro !!!

    I may need those information.

    onacruse posted Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:19:00 GMT(2/16/2007)

    Post 7341 of 6704
    Joined 7/3/2002

    My one (and only) Bethel review (an annual process, at least in the late-60s), prominently included the not-too-subtle suggestion that I needed to work on my 'problem' with "independent thinking." All my apostasy committees focused on the same issue.

    A foot just needs to know when it's just a foot.

    Lady Liberty posted Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:36:00 GMT(2/16/2007)

    Post 1518 of 2590
    Joined 3/18/2006

    Dear Jeffro,

    Isn't the hypocracy AMAZING!!!! They love to "dog" everyone else and yet they need to pull the rafter out of their own eye. Sadley, the rank and file just don't see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thank you for posting your find. I am going to print it for my "Independant Thinking" file!!

    Sincerely,

    Lady Liberty

    F Madame Quixote posted Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:36:00 GMT(2/17/2007)

    Post 650 of 1793
    Joined 12/13/2005

    Statements like this (from the WT Society of JWs) clearly show (even to those of us with the vaguest sense of world politics and social movements) what f@cktards the WTS writers really are:

    *** w58 8/1 p. 460 Dawns a New Era for the Irish ***
    ... the Irish people do very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear."

    They must not be familiar with great Irish leaders, writers and thinkers like:

    Jonathan Swift (Anglo-Irish)

    James Connoly (Marxist Irish, daresay independent thinker-writer, labor activist)

    Michael Collins http://www2.cruzio.com/~sbarrett/mcollins.htm

    Very nice point, you make, Gumby:

    "Did they actually ever stop to think that if it hadn't been for independent thinking there wouldn't have been a Watchtower Society? Russell certainly was an independent thinker when it came to religion. Of course, they applaud converts from other religions for their independent thinking when (as they see it) it leads them into the WTS, but not when it leads them out!"

    Thanks, Jeffro for all these WT quotes, esp:

    " . . . Allow No Place for theDevil . . ." and add to that, 'Be sure to allow a place for pedophiles (see www.silentlambs.org) and don't worry about reporting their abuse to the authorities because jehobo will take care of everything.' They do have some kind of independent thinking, huh?

    Jeffro, quotes like this from WT lit always remind me of a joke (incidentally heard in some irish-scot movie):

    "God’s organization has from time to time given warnings about listening to certain types of immoral and suggestive music, and about frequenting discos and other types of worldly dance halls where such music is played and people are known to engage in immoral conduct." The joke from the movie goes:

    Why do Calvinists not shag standing up?

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