JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

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    compound complex posted Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:20:00 GMT(12/22/2006)

    Post 354 of 10506
    Joined 8/4/2006

    Direct and Cross-Examination Questions in Child Custody Cases

    WTB&TS, page 42

    "Be careful that they [JW children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the Kingdom Hall. Show hobbies, crafts, social activity, sports, and especially plans for the future.

    "Be careful they don't all say that they are going to be pioneers. Plans can be trade, getting married and having children, journalism, and all kinds of other things. Maybe you can show an interest in art and the theatre. They must be clean, moral, HONEST, but with interests you would expect from other young people." [CC: emphasis]

    What can I say? The New World Citizens of tomorrow?

    Compound-Complex

    M hambeak posted Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:39:00 GMT(12/22/2006)

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    Hey CoCo what is this taken from?

    I am sure from the sound of it, it would be for the jw loayalist wanting custody and prompting rehearsed answers.

    compound complex posted Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:59:00 GMT(12/22/2006)

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    Joined 8/4/2006

    Howdy Hambeak,

    Good hearing from you! Since I don't have a printer, I take notes from the PC screen. When I began doing this a year ago, I didn't think to take down all the pertinent info re: links, etc. I do recall - pretty sure - that the title you see and page number are from a "secret," elders-only manual. What I copied was direct from the online source and put in quotes.

    The point is to make the court see the child as normal and better off in a godly household. Gag. Can you believe a JW kid talking about the theatre and hopes of Broadway! Yeah, my love of the stage developed from all those JW dramas and skits I was in! Really.

    Take care,

    CoCo

    M hambeak posted Fri, 22 Dec 2006 21:02:00 GMT(12/22/2006)

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    Thanks CoCo my friend

    I agree ps you have a pm

    compound complex posted Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:06:00 GMT(12/22/2006)

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    bttt

    M bennyk posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 00:15:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

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    The booklet in question is: Preparing For Child Custody Cases

    F vitty posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 00:29:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 2349 of 2551
    Joined 5/29/2004
    The booklet in question is: Preparing For Child Custody Cases

    And where can we get this booklet from???

    M Oroborus21 posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 00:38:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 1262 of 1318
    Joined 6/17/2002

    this is from the booklet as others already pointed out.

    I don't see anything wrong with the directions provided. The idea is to present that JW kids are interested in other things other than spiritual things which is certainly the case. In this way a Court can see that JWs are not religious fanatics, that their faith is important to them, perhaps the primary thng in life, but certainly NOT the only thing in life.

    -Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

    M Honesty posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:02:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 5671 of 9275
    Joined 1/12/2005

    I don't see anything wrong with the directions provided.The idea is to present that JW kids are interested in other things other than spiritual things which is certainly the case. In this way a Court can see that JWs are not religious fanatics, that their faith is important to them, perhaps the primary thng in life, but certainly NOT the only thing in life.

    -Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

    You know as well as the rest of us that JW kids are taught by the Watchtower cult that "spiritual things" (meaning those items judged "spiritual" by the JW's false god, the Governing Body) are the most important thing in their lives if they really want to please God and be 'approved' by him.

    JT posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:07:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

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    Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

    Please tell me you were just tongue and cheek

    Atlantis posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:23:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

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    Joined 11/12/2004

    Preparing For Child Custody Cases download! (With Watchtower letter)

    Click the link below and when the next page appears scroll down and look to your left.

    Your download link will appear under these words: (Download Description Education)

    http://www.verzend.be/v/8226216/childcustody.pdf.html

    Cheers! Atlantis-

    M Oroborus21 posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:56:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

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    Honesty,

    I understand your unrelenting bias but to be really "honest" you have to admit that there is a difference between advocating that something should be "most" important to one's life and advocating that nothing else is important at all. True, Witnesses believe their faith should be most important, but it is also true that Witnesses are encouraged to be well-rounded and that their lives are spent in a variety of activities, many of them not having anything to do with theocratic activities or Witnesses' faith.

    All that the counsel in the brochure is stating is that some Witness youths might have the idea that their faith is on trial or might think it is a situation to highlight their theocratic activity, the way they would do in a part at a convention. (As we know, those parts are meant to focus on a person's theocratic activity but one has to be naive to assume that such persons don't have other interests or don't spend some of their time in recreation or whatever.)

    This reminder in the Child Custody brochure is only that, a reminder, to let them know that they should discuss all of their interests and activity, so that a court, the judge, can get a more accurate picture of their daily life. They are not being asked to make up anything or create a false identity. They can represent their life accurately, that is dedicated to being a Christian, but otherwise they are more or less normal in that they have other interests and they spend their time in a variety of activities.

    -Eduardo

    M No Apologies posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:43:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 655 of 889
    Joined 9/20/2002

    Eduardo,

    There is no way you can reconcile this statement:

    Be careful they don't all say that they are going to be pioneers. Plans can be trade, getting married and having children, journalism, and all kinds of other things.

    with the "council" and "suggestions" that the Watchtower has repeatedly printed over the years warning of the "dangers" of pursuing higher education, of wanting to have any kind of career other than pioneering. They have even been known to suggest that young couples seriously consider not having children, because of "where we are in the stream of time."

    Every witness knows that "balanced life" means attending five meetings a week, spending time in field service regularly, and making pioneering the main goal for children after graduating high school.

    No Apologies

    M atypical posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:50:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 791 of 797
    Joined 9/30/2005

    Oro-

    Seriously, I am convinced that you just like to start a fire. The quote says NOT to show that meetings and service are the first things in the child's life. What's honest about that? Would a good jw child be allowed to pursue other interests over meetings and service? Why would there be a need to misrepresent the true jw priority system, unless doing so would hurt the jw parent in a custody battle?

    F GoingGoingGone posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 06:03:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

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    Thanks for the link, Atlantis!

    GGG

    M Oroborus21 posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 07:47:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 1265 of 1318
    Joined 6/17/2002

    Atypical,

    read the citation (quotation) more closely. It does not say what you say it does, that is as you say "that the child are not to show that meeting etc. are first priority." The information very clearly states that the child should understand that the testimony is NOT like a convention presentation or congregation part WHERE the emphasis would be that meetings, etc. would be of primary importance.

    No one is denying that meetings or one's faith is of "primary" importance and that is not the directive of the information. Again, the child (nor their parent, nor counsel) is not being told to be dishonest about the importance of their faith or of meetings, but only to present a full and complete picture of what their life is like. yes they will discuss their 5 meetings a week, etc. but they will also discuss their love of music, their hobbies, their other interests, their fav tv shows ,etc.

    The goal of presenting an accurate account of how JWs spend their time is not intended to mislead the fact-finder or evaluator but rather to counter any preconceived bias or misconceptions that they may have about JWs.

    Also, even though the "ideal" and encouraged state involves a significant amount of time and focus for JWs, the fact is that few JWs ACTUALLY do all that is "encouraged."

    Regarding the issue of "pioneering" as a goal, in the literature or from the platform, that "goal" is tossed out as an encouragement to all, YET it is clearly understood that not all persons can do it or should do it. That is why it is always stated as a matter of whether a person can make it possible to do it. Additionally, the fact that one must qualify and be approved to be a pioneer also implies that not all JWs would have pioneering as a realistic goal. The vast majority of Witnesses have other goals and desires in life pursuits, trades and how they will make a living, and since 1995 have the "socially blessed" goal of higher education. Pioneering (or other full-time service like Bethel) has always been considered a special privilege and possibiliity for only a relative few. Thus it is NOT deceitful for a child to tell the court about their goals if in fact they do have such desires or goals.

    -Eduardo

    PS: No, it is not that I like to fight or start fires. I believe in balance and this is just one of those instances where I see somethng posted that is not only in error but conveys a very unbalanced and inaccurate viewpoint. I have read and considered the Child Custody pamphlet quite in depth and contrary to claims by persons such as Duane Magnani and others, it is not a manual for lying or "theocratic strategy" though it is obviously an not unexpectedly biased and imbalanced. I also don't think it particularly good at helping counsel who are unfamiliar with JWs either as clients or in opposition prepare for hearings or trial. Thus, I am working on my own guide for counsel in this area.

    M Oroborus21 posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:01:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 1266 of 1318
    Joined 6/17/2002

    There is no way you can reconcile this statement:

    Be careful they don't all say that they are going to be pioneers. Plans can be trade, getting married and having children, journalism, and all kinds of other things.

    with the "council" and "suggestions" that the Watchtower has repeatedly printed over the years warning of the "dangers" of pursuing higher education, of wanting to have any kind of career other than pioneering. They have even been known to suggest that young couples seriously consider not having children, because of "where we are in the stream of time."

    No Apologies,

    it is absolutely reconcilable. As I state in my previous post (to Atypical), NOT ALL JWS are going to be or even have the desire to be Pioneers. Thus the statement is fine, IF the child in question, which is very likely, is one of those who is not striving to become a pioneer. Of course, if the person is striving to become a pioneer then in those few cases, the child should of course discuss their goal of pioneering, which by the way, would likely include some sort of self-support by vocational training or part-time employment. There are many WT excerpts which follow along those lines that Pioneers should be able to support themselves with part-time work or with some vocational trade.

    Secondly, what we have here is a situation where a statement is made in a communication which is general in nature but which is applicable to only a minority. Thus the WT statements are always going to focus on the highest goal or ideal circumstances and thus, yes, statements are made to reach out for pioneering. But these statements which are read or heard by all JWs are obviously only applicable to those few whose circumstances and whose desire allow for them to pursue pioneering or other full-time service. This really is obvious.

    Similarly, the statement in the Child Custody brochure is one which is general to all JWs (facing child custody disputes) but which would not be applicable to the few children who are pioneering or who are striving to become pioneers. (Although, again it is clear that the situation for pioneer children would be to present a "balanced" picture of both their occupation with pioneering and whatever vocation they may have which allows them to pioneer.)

    Again, I would challenge anyone to produce any excerpts from the Child Custody Brochure which clearly shows that the Society is advocating deception or dishonesty. That is a common claim made by anti-JW/opposers and some persons like Duane have written whole books making that claim, but it doesn't make it so.

    this post and the excerpt provided is typical of the bias that is revealed by those misreading what is clearly advice to counsel to present balanced and fair information to the courts, experts or fact-finders.

    compound complex posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:45:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

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    Joined 8/4/2006

    Dear Eduardo,

    Thank you for the time and effort you have devoted to clarifying this issue on child custody. You have certainly done your homework, and I appreciate your desire to present a balanced viewpoint. I regret what may have seemed to be a flippant and irresponsible approach to this important matter. No parent wants to lose a precious child, yet that child should not be used as a pawn in a legal struggle between parents. What has been presented in the booklet may appear straightforward and sincerely presented. Obviously, there is much controversy over what is written in WT publications. But the reality between warring factions often becomes brutal. In court I have seen behavior and heard words of Jehovah's Witnesses that were not in line with honesty and truth. I and others have been victims of misleading testimony, whether in the courts of the land or the ecclesiastical judicial system of Jehovah's Witnesses. Personal pain and bias should not enter into these arenas where truth and fact should be fairly presented. Sadly, however, they do creep in. It is especially true of us who have lost everything due to what we truly believed and followed without question. When you lose a child you may act irrationally. Your speech may appear irresponsible.

    I do not feel you were starting a fire. You were responding to a matter you felt was incorrectly presented and I admire your courage in so saying. I have learned something from you, and I will always endeavor to disagree without being disagreeable. Honesty and fairness are essential, and I thank you for the reminder.

    Sincerely,

    Compound-Complex

    M Oroborus21 posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 09:05:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

    Post 1272 of 1318
    Joined 6/17/2002

    thanks CC. the Guide for Counsel that I am working on, will, I hope, better prepare attorneys who are unfamiliar with JWs, to counter some of those false statements that are sometimes made by JWs or their children as well as explore topics which might arise as they relate to JWs.

    I am hoping to keep it even-handed but it will address the JW beliefs and culture confrontationally when those issues address the best interests of children. Duane Magnani says that "all things being equal, it is best for the children to be awarded into the custody of the non-JW parent" but I don't believe a blanket position like that is what is right. The court and the professionals whose job it is to make such determinations are the ones who should make these decisions and I believe they should be given all of the information necessary, that witnesses should be examined thoroughly, and that testimony should be presented which allows them to make these difficult decisions as best as they can.

    I know first-hand that there are never truly any winners in family law and especially in divorce and custody cases. The children often "lose" in some respect and it is heart-breaking.

    johnny cip posted Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:14:00 GMT(12/23/2006)

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    this guy eduardo: is a dirt bag, reading his twisted crap is worse than listening to , that other lying scum bag lawyer we all know JUDGE rutherFRAUD. all eduardo does is kiss the wt's ass. and LIE . i wouldn't be surprised if eduardo esq. is defending some of the jw child molestors. we read about all the time . his writing on this board, tell me he's a pond scum attorney. that will sink to any level to protect his client. and from what i've been reading here the wt has him on retainer. john

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