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Cross of Stake?
jojochan
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Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:14:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() Post 169 of 980 Since 1/17/2006 |
I was watching " The passion of the Christ" with my cousin the other day, and while she did reply that it was a snuff film to say the least, she was moved by the film. One thing of course she and I split on was the issue of cross or stake, which has been disscussed on this board many times. But not to start a debated because I was intoxicated off schnapps I simply replied," What if I showed you from the nwt somthing to think about?" she agreed and I showed her the account from john, ( i think it was john) when thomas wanted to see the holes where the NAILS were in jesus' hands, I kept repeating the account ,"the NAILS, the NAILS". That was all I needed to say, but still, I don't think she got it at all. right now to humor myself I started to look for info regarding how Romans' would condemn criminals and then such. But I liked how something as subtle as that account the collective overlooks, or make excuses. Interesting, any books I could look at to support this?banbachan. |
jojochan
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:22:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() Post 170 of 980 Since 1/17/2006 |
I meant to say Cross OR Stake. jojochan. |
Legolas
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:29:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() Post 3401 of 5069 Since 7/11/2005 |
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hubert
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:37:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() Post 1323 of 3248 Since 6/12/2004 |
Next time you see your cousin, show her this link, if you can. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/72572/1.ashxSome NWT Bibles have the "Reasoning from the Scriptures" in it, after "Revelation". These are all canned answers set up for j.w.'s to use in arguments about scripture interpretation. In this section is the "proof" that the j.w.'s use from the Imperial Bible Dictionary, (circa 1860)? about Cross verses stake. WHAT IS NOT THERE, is the part where if you read on, it explains that the CROSS was mostly used INSTEAD OF THE STAKE. Of course, the are "quoting" (out of context) from a dictionary that is "out of print". Very convenient, huh? Hope this helps. Hubert |
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:59:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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Post 39 of 79 Since 1/27/2006 |
the hebrew word for hands involved not only the hands but the wrists ,if jesus was impaled in his palms the nails would have stripped through and he wouldve fallen,the romans made a practice during impalements to put the nails through the wrists between the two bones to prevent stripping to hold up the people being impaled .the word referring to what jesus was impaled on in greek was stauros =torture stake
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Narkissos
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:10:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() Post 4613 of 9999 Since 9/27/2003 |
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Hellrider
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:49:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() Post 1150 of 2228 Since 6/26/2005 |
ezra wrote: the hebrew word for hands involved not only the hands but the wrists ,if jesus was impaled in his palms the nails would have stripped through and he wouldve fallen,the romans made a practice during impalements to put the nails through the wrists between the two bones to prevent stripping to hold up the people being impaled .the word referring to what jesus was impaled on in greek was stauros =torture stake LETTER OF BARNABAS For [the Scripture] says, "And Abraham circumcised ten, and eight, and three hundred men of his household." What, then, was the knowledge given to him in this? Learn the eighteen first, and then the three hundred. The ten and eight are thus denoted—Ten by I [the letter iota], and Eight by H [the lettereta]. You have [the initials of the name of] Jesus. And because the cross was to express the grace [of our redemption] by the letter T [tau], he says also, "Three hundred." He signifies, therefore, Jesus by two letters, and the cross by one. (Chapter 9; brackets in original [A.D. 80]). And that he might remind them, when assailed, that it was on account of their sins they were delivered to death, the Spirit speaks to the heart of Moses, that he should make a figure of the cross, and of him about to suffer thereon; for unless they place their trust in him, they shall be overcome for ever. Moses therefore placed one weapon above another in the midst of the hill, and standing upon it, so as to be higher than all the people, he stretched forth his hands, and thus again Israel acquired the mastery. (Chapter 12 [A.D. 80]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JUSTIN MARTYR And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross. (First Apology, chapter 55 [A.D. 151]) When the people . . . waged war with Amalek, and the son of Nave [Nun] by name Jesus [Joshua], led the fight, Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross, the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses; but if he remained in this form, Amalek was proportionately defeated, and he who prevailed did so by the cross. (Dialogue With Trypho, chapter 90 [A.D. 150–155 ]) Now, no one could say or prove that the horns of a unicorn represent any other fact or figure than the type that portrays the cross. For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn. (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 91 [A.D. 150–155]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MINICIUS FELIX Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. (Octavius, chapter 29 [c. A.D. 185–190]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TERTULLIAN Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat...Well, then, this modeler, before he did anything else, hit upon the form of a wooden cross, because even our own body assumes as its natural position the latent and concealed outline of a cross. Since the head rises upwards, and the back takes a straight direction, and the shoulders project laterally, if you simply place a man with his arms and hands outstretched, you will make the general outline of a cross. (Ad Nationes, chapter 12 [c. A.D. 197]) Premising, therefore, and likewise subjoining the fact that Christ suffered, he foretold that his just ones should suffer equally with him—both the apostles and all the faithful in succession; and he signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spoke: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark Tau upon the foreheads of the men." Now the Greek letter tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which he predicted would be the sign on our foreheads in the true Catholic Jerusalem. (Against Marcion, book 3, chapter 22 [A.D. 207]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HIPPOLYTUS The Gentiles, that is to say, are built upon Christ, the spiritual rock, which is become the head of the corner. "The spider, that supports itself upon its hands, and is easily caught, dwells in the strongholds of kings." That is, the thief with his hands extended (on the cross), rests on the cross of Christ and dwells in paradise, the stronghold of the three Kings—Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books on Proverbs [c. A.D. 170–235]) The robe or raiment of Esau denotes the faith and Scripture of the Hebrews with which the people of the Gentiles were endowed. The skins which were put upon his arms are the sins of both peoples, which Christ, when his hands were stretched forth on the cross, fastened to it along with himself. (Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture, On Genesis [c. A.D. 170–235]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ARCHELAUS There, Moses, when he was assailed, stretched forth his hands and fought against Amalek; and here, the Lord Jesus, when we were assailed and were perishing by the violence of that erring spirit who works now in the just, stretched forth his hands upon the cross, and gave us salvation. (The Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarach Manes, chapter 44 [c. A.D. 277]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- METHODIUS Hence it is that our kings, perceiving that the figure of the cross is used for the dissipating of every evil, have made vexillas, as they are called in the Latin language. Hence the sea, yielding to this figure, makes itself navigable to men. For every creature, so to speak, has, for the sake of liberty, been marked with this sign; for the birds which fly aloft form the figure of the cross by the expansion of their wings; and man himself, also, with his hands outstretched, represents the same. (Three Fragments from the Homily on the Cross and Passion of Christ [c. A.D. 300]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LACTANTIUS To these grounds it was also added, that having undertaken to suffer and to die, it was befitting that he should be lifted up. Thus the cross exalted him both in fact and in emblem, so that his majesty and power became known to all, together with his passion. For in that he extended his hands on the cross, he plainly stretched out his wings towards the east and the west, under which all nations from either side of the world might assemble and repose. (The Epitome of the Divine Institutes Addressed to His Brother Pentadius, chapter 51, "On the Death of Christ on the Cross" [c. A.D. 311]) ]) Now survey me from head to foot, deserted as I am, and lifted up afar from my beloved mother. . . . Behold my hands pierced with nails, and my arms drawn out, and the great wound in my side; see the blood streaming from it, and my perforated feet, and blood-stained limbs. Bend your knee, and with lamentation adore the venerable wood of the cross. ("A Poem on the Passion of the Lord" [c. A.D. 310–315]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FIRMICUS MATERNUS But where, sir, are you going to get yourself adornment and glory in this matter? The horns signify nothing else but the venerable sign of the cross. By one "horn" of this sign, the one which is elongated and vertical, the universe is held up and the earth held fast; and by the juncture of the two horns which go off sidewise the East is touched and the West supported; hence the whole world is stabilized on a solid footing in three parts, since its foundations are held firm by the immortal root of the steadfast work. (The Error of the Pagan Religions 21:4 [c. A.D. 342–346]) |
jojochan
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:35:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() Post 171 of 980 Since 1/17/2006 |
Thanks guys! That really helps. This issue perplexes me in a sense that was it a mistranslation? Or somthing else? I don't know. I'll read further on this matter, once again thank you:)jojochan. |
jgnat
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:41:00 GMT
(2/6/2006)
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![]() AlbertaPost 8466 of 15872 Since 7/4/2002 |
Jojo, read Narkissos' link to Leolaia's essay on the subject, which I consider definitive. Her argument is that the Watchtower Society was deceptive in their reasoning.If you corner a JW apologist on the subject, they'll typically respond with "Big deal." I'd say so too, except that the cross is held up by the WTS of another example of Christendom's apostacy. And it's not. |
jojochan
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Tue, 07 Feb 2006 01:40:00 GMT
(2/7/2006)
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![]() Post 180 of 980 Since 1/17/2006 |
Thanks jgnat and nark. I'll check the links, and print them. jojochan. |
drew sagan
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Re: Cross of Stake?
posted Thu, 09 Feb 2006 23:03:00 GMT
(2/9/2006)
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![]() Post 289 of 4218 Since 8/16/2005 |
How about...
Cross of Steak! Mmmmmmm Pass me the A1 sauce. Sorry but I just couldn't pass up that joke. The Bible told me to do it. (Prayers of Meat 24:114) |



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