Jesus/Michael Is there a change?

A neighbour of mine had JW's call. They told her that Jesus was not the Archangel Michael!!!

Have they changed or what?

 

I believe there was something in a recent WT magazine saying Jesus was "in a sense" an angel.

Anyone know about this, or are the JW's who called on my neighbour not quite telling the truth.

 

 

I'd bet they got confused. So many JWs do not understand their own doctrine!

Didier:

That sounds like the most plausible explanation.

 

One of the few doctrinal freedoms JWs have was allowed a few years ago. You could believe Jesus was Michael or not. THe basically did the same thing they did with the animals not eating meat in the garden of eden belief.  Saying that it appears preditors have always eaten meat, but there is no proof they did eat meat ing the garden (wow i guess that solved the problem). Followed by the classic WTBS disclaimer "there is no reason to be dogmatic about it like those other religions".

So in laymans terms yeah the watchtower changed their belief that Jesus was Michael, and only the old JWs probally hold that belief. note these people are probally in the same generation of JW that was thought Satan was appointed the God of earth by Jehovah (because back then Jehovah ruled from outer space and needed individual gods for each planet just like that captian planet cartoon) then got too haughty and rebeled because he did not like providing for adam and eve and not being worshiped for it. if you ask about this belief to a jw under 80 years old they probally will give you a blank stare and assume you are confusing them with LDS or are crazy. 

XQs...: any WT source?

On the Satan planet thing, carnivores in eden, or the Jesus/Michael schism?

Jesus / Michael.

There has been a lot of discussion on this recently and nobody came up with the idea the WT had changed its stance on this one, that's why I am curious. 

XQs:

Are you blowin' smoke up our asses again??

*** g02 2/8 pp. 16-17 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***

The Bible?s Viewpoint

Who Is Michael the Archangel?

ACCORDING to the Bible, there are millions of angelic creatures inhabiting the spirit realm. (Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11) From beginning to end, the Scriptures make hundreds of references to the angels that remain loyal to God. Yet, only two of these spirit creatures are mentioned by name. One is the angel Gabriel, who personally delivered messages from God to three different individuals over a period of some 600 years. (Daniel 9:20-22; Luke 1:8-19, 26-28) The other angel mentioned by name in the Bible is Michael.

Michael is clearly an outstanding angel. For example, in the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of Jehovah?s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1) In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses? body. (Jude 9) The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and hurls them out of heaven. (Revelation 12:7-9) No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God?s enemies. It is no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as "the archangel," the prefix "arch" meaning "chief," or "principal."

The Controversy Over Michael?s Identity

Christendom?s religions, as well as Judaism and Islam, have conflicting ideas on the subject of angels. Some explanations are vague. For instance, The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: "There may be a single superior angel and/or a small group of archangels (usually four or seven)." According to The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, Michael is the "name of a superhuman being, in regard to whom there have in general been two rival opinions, either that he is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or that he is one of the so-called seven archangels."

In Jewish tradition these seven archangels are Gabriel, Jeremiel, Michael, Raguel, Raphael, Sariel, and Uriel. On the other hand, Islam believes in four archangels, namely, Jibril, Mikal, Izrail, and Israfil. Catholicism also believes in four archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. What does the Bible say? Are there several archangels?

The Bible?s Answer

Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term "archangel" in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.

Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection?namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of "the Lord Jesus" and "his powerful angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: "He is at God?s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."?1 Peter 3:22.

While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel. In his letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul prophesied: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel?s voice and with God?s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) In this scripture Jesus is described as having assumed his power as God?s Messianic King. Yet, he speaks with "an archangel?s voice." Note, too, that he has the power to raise the dead.

While on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said: "Young man, I say to you, Get up!" (Luke 7:14, 15) Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus "cried out with a loud voice: ?Lazarus, come on out!?" (John 11:43) But on these occasions, Jesus? voice was the voice of a perfect man.

After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a "superior position" in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God?s trumpet sounded the call for "those who are dead in union with Christ" to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued "a commanding call," this time "with an archangel?s voice." It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call "with an archangel?s voice."

Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels?Michael the archangel.

This is the first article that dileberately injects doubt into peoples mind I lost a study behind it because he had finally conceded to the belief Jesus was Michael. After reding the less than direct article he returned back to his orginal stance.

Articles after this one slowly erode the absolute certainty that jesus is Michael, but it is hidden in weird one liners in articles that have nothing to do with J/M. This is the best I could dig up.

XQs:

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with you.

We've been around the block a few times, and "it is reasonable to conclude" is a trigger phrase meaning "it would be unreasonable to disagree with us you potential apostate scum..."

The phrase you take as injecting doubt could just as easily be emphasised another way to show the WTSs true intent:

 

 

*** g02 2/8 pp. 16-17 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***

The Bible?s Viewpoint

Who Is Michael the Archangel?

XQs, Very interesting, anything more recent???

XQs, you don't underline the final sentence (the only one the average JW will remember):End of debate as far as JW beliefs are concerned.

Didier:

My gawd, you've got stamina.  My brain melted before I got to the end of the article...

 

"XQs, you don't underline the final sentence (the only one the average JW will remember):"

Lol the average JW would not remember this article. Because they never would have read it in the first place since its not a study article

Funny how the watchtower says it is not in the bible and that the bible olny implies something. Years ago they would have just started under divine revalation that it is so. Such as the Great crowd being metaphysically relocating to earth from their former place in the heavens. I guess you can call it a witness protection plan of sorts.

BTW  this is the end of the debate because I produced the article and the originator of this post says that some JWs don't believe Michael is that archangel. So everything fits nicely.

 

Using the same reasoning that says Jesus is an arch angel because he spoke in the voice of an arch angel makes Satan a real lion because he goes about like a roaring lion and only a real lion can go about like a roaring lion.

If Satan can roar like a lion without being a lion, why can't Jesus speak like a angel without being an angel? If Satan's lion can be a metaphor, then why can't Jesuss' voice be a metaphor? 



 

 

     

With all due respect, guys-- who cares?   It seems to me that the WT's exposition is not implausible; their error is in their extreme dogmatism and making such trivialities articles of faith.

Good point Gary,

Look at how the "kurios" in v15 its translated as "Jehovah" but in verse 16 its just plain ole Lord.

15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah?s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; ¹⁶ because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel?s voice and with God?s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.......NWT

 

As a GB member told me once, if it ain't in the WT, it ain't official. (allows for deniability)

8-8-04 WT

Jesus has authority over his congregation, and since 1914 he has had authority over God?s newly established Kingdom (didn?t part of it start in 33 CE?).

 

He is the archangel and as such commands a heavenly army of hundreds of millions of angels. (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 19:14-16).

w03 6/1 p. 15 "Do Not Be Afraid or Be Terrified" ***

 

It sounds like that person either misunderstood those JWs or they are confused about their own beliefs or they have their own theories that they are hawking from door to door.

 

Ellderwho:

I remember showing my dad 1Thess.5:15, 16 in the KIT, so he could see kurios for himself. He gulped but then shook it off.

Room215:

Who's making it an article of faith?

Are you talking about the WTS?

Besides, the answers are to the question: Has the WTS changed their view?

The answer is a resounding "No!".