Satan sent to earth in 1914?? My mom's on drugs!

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    F Bubbamar posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:40:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    In my mom's last letter she made a statement that in 1914 Satan was sent to earth. Does anyone know what she's talking about? I thought everyone pretty much agreed that the snake in the garden was satan, that satan was on earth in Jesus day and still is and has always been. I thought satan would be sent away for Jesus' 1000 year reign and then sent back to earth for his final membership drive.

    Of course I'm referring to JW doctrine....but I'd also like some scriptures to refute this - from those of you more versed in the scriptures than my heathen self.

    Thanks guys!

    M Nocturne posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:06:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    Your mom got the doctrine right. According to JW doctrine, before 1914, Satan was allowed to roam freely on earth and on heaven. But 1914 marked the end of the gentile times, and thus Christ was put in power in heaven, and his first act of power was to kick Satan out of heaven and confine him to the earth. This is all in Revelation, chapter 12:

    5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
    7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
    "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Christ.
    For the accuser of our brothers,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.
    11 They overcame him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
    they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
    and you who dwell in them!
    But woe to the earth and the sea,
    because the devil has gone down to you!
    He is filled with fury,
    because he knows that his time is short."

    So these events marked the beginning of the "last days of this system" and one of those signs was WWI. You don't really need to refute this using bible passages since the whole doctrine is based on the interpretation Daniel 4 of the seven times prophecy which equal 2520 years counted from the start year of 607 bce which is, according to the wts, when the destruction of Jerusalem by the babylonians. So when you add 2520 years to 607 you get 1914. Of course, many people here can provide evidence that clearly shows that 607 was not the date when the babylonians led by Nebukadnetsar destroyed Jerusalem, but in fact Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce which means they're date is off by 20 years. So just tell your mom that Satan couldn't have been sent on earth in 1914 because the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586/587 bce NOT 607 bce as the JW claim. You can even prove it to her using the society's own writings. Farkel made a thread with a very easy method where by using the wts' own publications you prove that it was impossible for the destruction of Jerusalem to be in 607. I'll look it up.

    P.S. edited to add the link to the thread Farkel made on the subject...enjoy!

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/74549/1.ashx

    M Nosferatu posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:06:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    I've thought about this screwy doctrine before as well. According to the bible, Satan has been on earth since the beginning. I guess he enjoyed making multiple trips to earth.

    Scully posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:27:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    The problem I had with the "Satan was cast down to earth in 1914 - woe to the earth and to the sea" doctrine was that it left nobody to "blame" for the atrocities, including the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, among others, that occurred prior to 1914.

    I dunno... it all just seems so effed up now.

    Love, Scully

    F kls posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:33:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    My bible knowledge left with the JWs but there was a bible passage that Jesus was casting out demons in his time. So that would mean the Devil was on earth at that time ,,,right? Or did he leave and God sent him back in 1914?

    M boa posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:32:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    I believe the crux of the doctrine is that 1914 was when the great angel/devil battle over Endor happened. A select group of super-dubs were snatched from Earth and used to destroy the shield generator, thus allowing the capture of about a third of the total number of combatants.

    These defeated demon combatants were put into exile on Earth and all their space technology destroyed. Thus, they are stuck here and can't get off the planet. All the governments on earth know about these losers and put Kryptonite in their shuttles and rockets so they can't get back into space that way.

    The super-dubs, on the other hand, were returned to their respective congregations with a good number going to various bethels around the world. These ones, my friends, are the gunners and psychos of the organization. Their brains were wiped of their earlier ordeal on Endor but the training stayed in place. Its been hard for others to explain why they do what they do but now all of YOU know!

    boa....

    Annanias posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:43:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    nocturne got it right. The point is that Satan was CONFINED to the earth. And, he's really mad now! The date thing may be wrong, may be right, I'm not sure that matters a whole lot. I used to get into terrble rows with my history instructors over dates. They were so anal about them, claiming that dates are the "vertebrae" of history. I felt that understanding the "flow" of history was vastly more important than the specific whens, and that fussing over whether England was invaded in 1050 or 1051distracted from the issue. Most of my history professors were left unfazed as they handed back my tests with the red ink all over them.

    You won't get any scriptures to refute what your mother has said, unless they are made up or misapplied. So, you got two choices, you can throw up your hands and state the whole thing is BS and close your mind to it, or, you can take the modern "realistic" approach and look at this world and tell yourself that it's really a wonderful place to be. That it's really great, and, why, the people in the Thebes of 839 BCE lived exactly like we do today, i.e. with the threat of suitcase nukes, and aerosol anthrax, and runaway Aids, and mass starvation, and pandemics, and poisoned environment. I mean, didn't James Cooleridge extol the virtues of Prozac and Wellbutrin as everybody and everything at that time was just as depressing as it is today? Satan and his demons being confined to the earth? What a joke! There's no proof of that! Go ahead, prove it, I dare you.

    F kls posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:00:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    And the Dubs really believe this ? It is really dumb and makes no sense. Where did this illogical crap come from ? Who made this interpretation that makes no sense.

    M Quotes posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:01:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    According to Watchtowerism, Satan lost his privleges and lost his ability enter before Jah's throne (i.e. to enter heaven) in October 1914. (Aside: apparently Jah is not as quick and absolute in shunning as the Watchtower, that took only about 5000 years!!!).

    As a result of Satan being confined to the Earth in October 1914, this started WWI, which of course, started in August 1914, i.e. 2.5 months BEFORE Satan's arrival -- please ignore the timing problem!!!

    Also, WWI "came out of nowhere, was unexplicable, and no one knows why/how it really started".... as long as you ignore the fact that the Balkan states, where it started, had been a HOTBED of wars for hundreds of years, including TWO (that's right, TWO) "Balkan Wars" just a couple of years prior to WWI -- please ignore the obvious human explanations and accept the supernatural!

    ~Quotes, of the "Toured the Romanian Military Museum in Bucharest" class

    M El blanko posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:06:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    I felt that understanding the "flow" of history was vastly more important than the specific whens

    Gotta agree there.

    One point though, to the WTBTS specific dates are important, crucially so. 1914 has to be correct, otherwise the stack of dominos falls.

    I tend to agree with you as well about technology creating 'demons' of war for us to grapple with and the induced fear as a result of that wave.

    Plus, nobody can deny the impact of the aids virus.

    F kls posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:13:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    Aids Virus yes but remember when there was Small Pox, Black Plague, Leprosy, etc. Those deadly disease's took the lives of entire towns and thousands of people at an early age in a matter of days. These diseases were before 1914.

    Annanias posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:38:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    kls, I know, and "where is this promised presence of his?" I agree that the black death, and small pox, and all that is that did occur before 1914; however, anyone who is going to say that the 14th centrury and the 21st century are the same hasn't been paying attention.

    M Nosferatu posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:39:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    For God loved the world so much that he cast his only begotten Satan to us.

    Why is it always between heaven and Earth? Why not heaven and Neptune? If God loves us so much, why did he confine Satan to the Earth? Why didn't he confine Satan to a different planet? Perhaps nobody knew of other planets when the bible was written?

    M Terry posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:49:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    So, it took Jehovah 6,000 years to disfellowship Satan from heaven??

    What kind of example is He setting anyway?

    And, what is worse, Jah sent him to the congregation across the street! Earth!

    M boa posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:50:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    Since Endor was where the battle took place, he shoulda left 'em there. The Ewoks coulda babysat them. Also, could leave all the gunners & psycho dubs there to have good upbuilding association with each other (barf).

    M TD posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:06:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    You won't get any scriptures to refute what your mother has said, unless they are made up or misapplied.

    Interesting observation. I've noticed that with some of the more esoteric doctrines, a refutation of JW beliefs using the Bible, would require that one jump into the pig-pen and roll around in the muck with them.

    JW's don't just believe that heavenly events have rendered the world since 1914 unique, but that the 24 elders of Revalation picture an anointed class within the ranks of JW's, that the seven trumpets of Revelation were proclamations made at JW conventions, that the locusts of Revelation are JW's themselves, that the great crowd of Revelation are also a class within the ranks of JW's themselves, that Babylon of Revelation is all religions other than JW's, that opening of the seven seals of Revelation are events within JW history, even things as mundane as the installation of some new printing presses in the 1960's. It goes on and on and on.

    What makes this sheer nonsense possible is not so much a matter of interpretation as it is a matter of one's attitude toward the Bible. In other words, the idea that 1st century Jewish apocalyptic is in any way relevant to us requires that one adopt the wildly egocentric attitude of 18th and 19th century Protestantism at its worst.

    When challenged, JW's and those that think like them will demand alternative explanations for Revelation that fit this same mold. For example, you can deny that the 1st trumpet was sounded at a JW convention at Cedar Point, Ohio in 1921, but to really convince, you will have to provide some other event in the 20th century as an alternative.

    It is not until one firmly believes, as the JW's do, that Revelation was really written to, for and about US, or at the very least, to, for and about OUR TIME that there is even anything to argue about. In the long run, it's probably better to stay out of the pig-sty altogether.

    M City Fan posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:26:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    Excellent comments TD. I especially liked this:

    the idea that 1st century Jewish apocalyptic is in any way relevant to us requires that one adopt the wildly egocentric attitude of 18th and 19th century Protestantism at its worst

    Revelation is open to all kinds of wacky interpretations once the obvious is ignored, that it is an apocalyptic book about Rome, the persecution of Christians by Emperor Nero and Emperor Domitian, legends that Nero would return, and the hope that this persecution would soon end.

    F glitter posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:30:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    was when the great angel/devil battle over Endor happened. A select group of super-dubs were snatched from Earth and used to destroy the shield generator, thus allowing the capture of about a third of the total number of combatants.

    LOL

    F Bubbamar posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:55:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    Joined 5/14/2004

    Nocturn - Thank you so much for the scripture reference and the link!

    Boa - LMAO!! Very Creative

    Quotes - Please expound...History for Dummies needed.

    Nos - Great point - "Gee - thanks Jeboobah!! Now we know how precious we really are to you."

    TD - Yes, I was thinking egocentric too. I imagine in another 100 years there will still be people saying that Revelation and the term "generation" was meant for them.

    M Elsewhere posted Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:24:00 GMT(9/13/2004)

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    Joined 2/8/2002
    Satan sent to earth in 1914?? My mom's on drugs!

    Sounds like your mom has been tok'in up using Watchtowers for wrapping paper!

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