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Only one "God" trinitarians?

    Jeremiah Lee posted Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:28:00 GMT(10/15/2002)

    Post 23 of 32
    Joined 7/17/2002

    Okay, last post....

    Acts 7:59-60; 9:13-14, 17, 21 ..cf.. Psalm 31:5; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 16:22; 2 Corinthians 12:8-9- ..cf..Genesis 4:26; 12:8

    If that ain't prayer.....

    God bless--Lee

    Anastasis posted Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:40:00 GMT(10/15/2002)

    Post 17 of 19
    Joined 10/9/2002

    Jeremiah Lee,

    Hi there. Let us see what you have to say.

    Obviously it makes a great difference that Stephen is able to see Jesus. Jesus is the one that receives the spirit of that this saint, which is basically his life conduct ensuring him a place in the book of life. He is assured that Christ will raise him at the last day, having received this authority from God "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

    What does the name "Jesus" mean? Again, Im a bit puzzled about where you get your interpretations from. Is Jesus really a new name? No its not. It means "YHWH is salvation", like Emanuel means "God with us" and Jehu (Israliete King) "he is YHWH". It is even shared with Joshua. These are names that signifies that the ones holding them do the work of God. A name is just a name and the name of Jesus is simply that YHWH is salvation.

    As for the Word, John 1 speaks of the Word of God. The world is obviously the Jewish world, Acts 14:16 tells us that God "in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways", they are not accountable to YHWH beyond the grave. The personified Word came to its own, those that had received the Word of God. Jesus as a person?? No no, but the LAW. That way what I have said here fits the context perfectly. OT thinking is the way to understand the NT, otherwise you go wrong.

    "Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12" speaks of the feets of YHWH. Does YHWH literally have feet? He is Spirit, not flesh and bones, unless you are a Mormon. Jesus have literally feet though and since we have that "God was in Christ reconciling the world" (2 Cor. 5:19) we can see that YHWH and Jesus will come back the same way YHWH and Jesus left. In the same way YHWH was crucified, that is through his Son who was mortal and flesh and blood.

    The main problem with your interpretation of the verses in Heb. 1:10-12 is that they ignore the context of Ps. 102. This is a believer adressing YHWH. Notice what it says in verse 18; "This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD". The writer here is part of this creation. If we have in mind that the apostle is the one that speaks in Hebrews 1 while YHWH is merely being quoted, then we wont go off track because, as I detailed earlier, the "who writes what and to whom" is very different in verses 8-9 compared to 10-12. Every singel verses quoting YHWH starts of with the writer telling us who speaks to who;

    YHWH addressing Son (In the verses from OT, Solomon which was a type of Christ):

    Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    YHWH addressing Angels:

    Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    This is obviously not the case in verses 8-12;

    YHWH addressing Son (In the verses from OT, Solomon which was a type of Christ):

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Apostle addressing YHWH (In the verses from OT, a NT saint addressing YHWH):

    Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    On the contrary the writer skips from God speaking to a saint speaking, no longer telling us who he speaks to but instead calling YHWH "you". Thus we can see that his style is very consistent. It would indeed be a let down if he had ignored who speaks to who in Ps. 102:25-27. He would be quoting out of context if he had applied Hebrews 1:10-12 as YHWHs words to the Son. The writing style here is wellknown for the timeperiod of Hebrews.

    Last thing on this. You speak about the eternal throne of YHWH. What throne did Solomon sit on? His own? . No;

    1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    So, the throne is YHWHs. This is obviously more symbolic of the power than a literal throne.

    Finally the prayer thing. My last post really explains it all. The Bible explains something the trinitarians would like to refute, namely that Christ receives prayers and mediator while being subject to YHWH. Where is the Son of God preached in the OT apart from "things to come"? Moses does indeed talk a bit of Jesus as "a prophet raised among you" (Deu. 18:15; Acts 3:22) but where does Moses call on Jesus? Where does he call him Lord? I would like to see it ;). Moses had one Lord, and he was himself Lord over his people. The people were "baptised into Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), which obviously does not mean what it means to be baptised into Christ. But as I have told, we had no mediator in the OT but the Law and the Law is not a person.

    Again, Jesus is never prayed to anywhere, but as he is the chief angel (or let us call him messenger, otherwise you get me wrong), both Paul and John has contact with their Lord and speaks to him after Christ has become immortal. Note the intro to Revelations;

    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    That way it should not surprise us that it was possible for the apostles to talk to the Lord. Btw, notice how that verse does not call Jesus God in this context? Why? I thought he was God the Son, so you told me J .

    God Bless

    Edited by - Anastasis on 15 October 2002 4:43:49

    Anastasis posted Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:46:00 GMT(10/15/2002)

    Post 18 of 19
    Joined 10/9/2002

    These following verses gives us a clear indication of what Jesus is NOT and what he was ABOUT;

    Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Fathers business?

    Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    There you have it. A seperate person, being subject to God, who is all about his Fathers business and a seperate person manifesting God. That is Jesus for you.

    God Bless

    Edited by - Anastasis on 15 October 2002 4:49:45

    Jeremiah Lee posted Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:26:00 GMT(10/16/2002)

    Post 24 of 32
    Joined 7/17/2002

    Hello and God bless:

    >>>

    Obviously it makes a great difference that Stephen is able to see Jesus. Jesus is the one that receives the spirit of that this saint, which is basically his life conduct ensuring him a place in the book of life. He is assured that Christ will raise him at the last day, having received this authority from God "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

    What does the name "Jesus" mean? Again, Im a bit puzzled about where you get your interpretations from. Is Jesus really a new name? No its not. It means "YHWH is salvation", like Emanuel means "God with us" and Jehu (Israliete King) "he is YHWH". It is even shared with Joshua. These are names that signifies that the ones holding them do the work of God. A name is just a name and the name of Jesus is simply that YHWH is salvation.<<<

    The name (as of now) is irrelevant. It is the process of prayer of which I speak. Note that at Stephen's last dying breath, he calls on Jesus. Remember what is said of prayer? That it should be done in Jesus' name?

    And why does "seeing" Jesus matter? It doesn't. What matters is that AS Stephen was being stoned he was calling upon Jesus to recieve his spirit. Why did he choose these words at his LAST dying breath?

    >>>As for the Word, John 1 speaks of the Word of God. The world is obviously the Jewish world, Acts 14:16 tells us that God "in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways", they are not accountable to YHWH beyond the grave. The personified Word came to its own, those that had received the Word of God. Jesus as a person?? No no, but the LAW. That way what I have said here fits the context perfectly. OT thinking is the way to understand the NT, otherwise you go wrong. <<<

    The context speaks otherwise. The OT law is summed in Christ, no? Yes. ;) Therefore Christ IS the 'Word'. Now note the context. Vs10 speaks of who? The word. The 'Word' did what? Created the world (vs1-3,10). Now see vs12. What is the 'Word's name on which to believe? Jesus. Note in vs10 that the 'Word' ie. Jesus is rejected just like in the gospels. See also 1Jn1:1-2 and Rev19:13. Jesus is THE Word. Notice in the gospels how Jesus says that HE is the 'bread that came down from heaven' HE is the 'True Light' etc..

    >>>"Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12" speaks of the feets of YHWH. Does YHWH literally have feet? He is Spirit, not flesh and bones, unless you are a Mormon. Jesus have literally feet though and since we have that "God was in Christ reconciling the world" (2 Cor. 5:19) we can see that YHWH and Jesus will come back the same way YHWH and Jesus left. In the same way YHWH was crucified, that is through his Son who was mortal and flesh and blood. <<<

    YHWH can have 'feet' because the incarnated Christ IS YHWH. See Rev22:3-4. Does God have a 'face'? Note that the one who's face is seen is the one who is SERVED. Can you serve a mere creature? No.

    >>>The main problem with your interpretation of the verses in Heb. 1:10-12 is that they ignore the context of Ps. 102. This is a believer adressing YHWH. Notice what it says in verse 18; "This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD". The writer here is part of this creation. If we have in mind that the apostle is the one that speaks in Hebrews 1 while YHWH is merely being quoted, then we wont go off track because, as I detailed earlier, the "who writes what and to whom" is very different in verses 8-9 compared to 10-12. Every singel verses quoting YHWH starts of with the writer telling us who speaks to who; <<<

    That may seem viable on the outside, but what did we forget? That it is the 'Spirit of YHWH' within the prophets who speak. Not the prophet of his own accord. This is like saying that the 'OT Law' is actually Moses' because he is the 'speaker' in regards to the children of Israel.

    >>>YHWH addressing Son (In the verses from OT, Solomon which was a type of Christ): <<<

    Solomon was merely a foreshadowing of the True One to come.

    >>>Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a SonHebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. YHWH addressing Angels: Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? <<<

    Nothing to disagree with here. You should note though the address/quote format.

    >>>This is obviously not the case in verses 8-12;

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. <<<

    Now let's think about this one. Note that it was originally applied to 'Solomon' but is here specifically applied to Christ. Remember the Psalms "..you will not allow your holy one to see decay"? How it was 'applied to David' but was in actuality not applied to him at all, but to Christ?

    >>>Apostle addressing YHWH (In the verses from OT, a NT saint addressing YHWH): <<<

    Rather, Apostle speaking by the Spirit of God.

    >>>Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    On the contrary the writer skips from God speaking to a saint speaking, no longer telling us who he speaks to but instead calling YHWH "you".<<<

    But you forgot the Grk word "kai" which means 'and' that joins the two quotes. "But about the Son he say...[this]....AND....[this]"....See what I mean? And remember by this the "you" refers to the Father as speaker. Therefore He [YHWH] addresses His Son [also YHWH] through the words of the prophet onto paper.

    >>>Thus we can see that his style is very consistent. It would indeed be a let down if he had ignored who speaks to who in Ps. 102:25-27. He would be quoting out of context if he had applied Hebrews 1:10-12 as YHWHs words to the Son. The writing style here is wellknown for the timeperiod of Hebrews.<<<

    Would not be odd at all. What would be strange is if the writer of Hebrews suddenly interjected in mid-context to quote a passage of OT to merely emphasize YHWH eternality? What is the point of that, and how does it fit in with context? Note the sudden return to context in vs13..."but to the angels He says"...Should'nt he have waited until the end of the topic? Now remember the word "and" and how he is quoting two scriptures as applied to the Son.

    >>>Finally the prayer thing. My last post really explains it all. The Bible explains something the trinitarians would like to refute, namely that Christ receives prayers and mediator while being subject to YHWH. Where is the Son of God preached in the OT apart from "things to come"? Moses does indeed talk a bit of Jesus as "a prophet raised among you" (Deu. 18:15; Acts 3:22) but where does Moses call on Jesus? Where does he call him Lord? I would like to see it ;). Moses had one Lord, and he was himself Lord over his people. The people were "baptised into Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), which obviously does not mean what it means to be baptised into Christ. But as I have told, we had no mediator in the OT but the Law and the Law is not a person. <<<

    Simply because Jesus did not formally obtain the name "Jesus" ie. 'God our salvation' until the time of His manifestation. However you can read Judges13 to see where the Angel of YHWH (theophany) was invoked in a blessing ALONG WITH YHWH.

    >>>Again, Jesus is never prayed to anywhere, but as he is the chief angel (or let us call him messenger, otherwise you get me wrong), both Paul and John has contact with their Lord and speaks to him after Christ has become immortal. Note the intro to Revelations;

    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    That way it should not surprise us that it was possible for the apostles to talk to the Lord. Btw, notice how that verse does not call Jesus God in this context? Why? I thought he was God the Son, so you told me<<<

    Why did you ignore the scriptures I cited that address this very thing?

    As for message. See 1Peter1:11. The Spirit of 'Who?' IN 'whom?'...cf...Rom8:9.

    As for delineation. Why is this a problem for Trinitarians? The Son was sent forth from the Father, not the other way around. I may as well ask you to read Jude4 then tell me why the Father is excluded from the ONE Lord in 1Cor8:6?

    God bless you--Lee

    Jeremiah Lee posted Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:33:00 GMT(10/16/2002)

    Post 25 of 32
    Joined 7/17/2002

    And of course in regards to 'prayer'.

    Acts 7:59-60; 9:13-14, 17, 21 ..cf.. Psalm 31:5; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 16:22; 2 Corinthians 12:8-9- ..cf..Genesis 4:26; 12:8

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:35:00 GMT(10/16/2002)

    Post 584 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    This is a Great Discussion Thread everyone!

    Here are some Bible Verses that show who THE WORD (Logos) is:

    John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:2: The Same was in the beginning with God.
    John 1:3: All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world did not know Him.
    John 1:11: He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
    John 1:12: But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on His Name:
    John 1:13: Who were Born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    John 1:14: And the Word was made Flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His Glory, the Glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    John 1:15: John (the Baptist) bore witness of Him, and cried, saying, This was He of whom I spoke, He who comes after me is greater than me: for He existed before me.

    John 1:18: No man has seen God at any time; the Only Begotten Son, who is in the Bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    1st John 1:1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of Life;
    1st John 1:2: (For the Life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show to you that Eternal Life, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us;)
    1st John 1:3: That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

    1st John 5:6: This is the One coming through water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One witnessing, because the Spirit is the Truth.
    1st John 5:7: For there are Three bearing witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these Three are One. (Not all Translations include this Verse, and it may not have been in the original Writings)
    1st John 5:8: And there are Three who bear witness on the Earth: The Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood; and the Three agree as One.

    Revelation 19:11: I saw the Heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True. In righteousness He judges and makes war.
    Revelation 19:12: His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns. He has Names written and a Name written which no one knows but He Himself.
    Revelation 19:13: He is clothed in a garment sprinkled with Blood. His Name is called "The Word of God."
    Revelation 19:14: The Armies which are in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in white, pure, fine linen.
    Revelation 19:15: Out of His mouth proceeds a sharp, double-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations. He will rule them with a rod of iron. He treads the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
    Revelation 19:16: He has on His garment and on His thigh a Name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

    Anastasis posted Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:35:00 GMT(10/16/2002)

    Post 19 of 19
    Joined 10/9/2002

    Hi Jeremiah Lee,

    "

    >>>Obviously it makes a great difference that Stephen is able to see Jesus. Jesus is the one that receives the spirit of that this saint, which is basically his life conduct ensuring him a place in the book of life. He is assured that Christ will raise him at the last day, having received this authority from God "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

    What does the name "Jesus" mean? Again, Im a bit puzzled about where you get your interpretations from. Is Jesus really a new name? No its not. It means "YHWH is salvation", like Emanuel means "God with us" and Jehu (Israliete King) "he is YHWH". It is even shared with Joshua. These are names that signifies that the ones holding them do the work of God. A name is just a name and the name of Jesus is simply that YHWH is salvation.<<<

    The name (as of now) is irrelevant. It is the process of prayer

    of which I speak. Note that at Stephen's last dying breath, he calls on Jesus. Remember what is said of prayer? That it should be done in Jesus' name ?

    And why does "seeing" Jesus matter? It doesn't. What matters is that

    AS Stephen was being stoned he was calling upon Jesus to recieve his spirit. Why did he choose these words at his LAST dying breath?"

    - Let us start of clearing a fundamental misunderstanding:

    Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    Stephen actually addresses God and then he asks Jesus to receive his Spirit. Prayers are done in the name of Jesus but directed to the Father, the one you normally speak to is the Father (Matt. 6). Stephen doesnt pray to Jesus in the vision, he speaks to him. It is totally fundamental of this vision in Acts 7:55 onward that Stephen sees Jesus. If he hadnt seen him, we have the rest of NT aswell as Matt. 6 as evidence that he would not be talking to him. Jesus even stands next to.. whom..? The Father or God the Father? No, it merely says GOD so Jesus is not God, but standing next to God. Jesus is the divine mediator and high priest receiving prayers. What says Scripture? Well; "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb. 2:17). Jesus receives the prayers of the saints and we ask of God to let them go through Jesus as they are only acceptable to God in Jesus. Jesus is a being on his own yet nessary in human relationship to God. The spirit represent either the power or lifeconduct/style of a person, forinstance the spirit of Elijah (2 Kings 2:15) or of Christ (Rom. 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11), while Gods Spirit goes beyond human limitations. Thus what Stephen really says is "Lord Jesus receive my sacrifice, give it to God, grant me life".

    To sum up; praying to Jesus goes against the instruction of Jesus and not a singel person in the Bible prays to Jesus. You pray to the Father, Jesus is the high priest. The scene in Acts 7:55- is not a prayer but a vision in which Stephen sees his high priest and talks to him. This is simply the logic and rational interpretation of Scriptures without adding any superstion. However abused the passage may be, it just sums up the teaching on Hebrews 8 which is very non trinitarian. In your argumentation, you have broken the instruction of Jesus, ignored the clear teaching of Hebrews about Jesus as high priest and read something into Acts 7:59 it doesnt say at all.

    "

    >>>As for the Word, John 1 speaks of the Word of God. The world is obviously the Jewish world, Acts 14:16 tells us that God "in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways", they are not accountable to YHWH beyond the grave. The personified Word came to its own, those that had received the Word of God. Jesus as a person?? No no, but the LAW. That way what I have said here fits the context perfectly. OT thinking is the way to understand the NT, otherwise you go wrong. <<<

    The context speaks otherwise. The OT law is summed in Christ, no? Yes. ;) Therefore Christ IS the 'Word'. Now note the context. Vs10 speaks of who? The word. The 'Word' did what? Created the world (vs1-3,10). Now see vs12. What is the 'Word's name on which to believe? Jesus. Note in vs10 that the 'Word' ie. Jesus is rejected just like in the gospels. See also 1Jn1:1-2 and Rev19:13. Jesus is THE Word. Notice in the gospels how Jesus says that HE is the 'bread that came down from heaven' HE is the 'True Light' etc.."

    - The OT law is summed in Christ? I havent seen that in Sciptures. Jesus is however the bread of life that came down from Heaven. Is that literal? Is Jesus bread from Heaven? No, but he came from God and gives life. He is the life and resurrection because he is the one men of the new covenant must believe in. Christ is the word of God that became flesh. A word is not being anymore than the Law is a being. You confuse literal speaking with non literal speaking. It is true Gods word created the world. See;

    Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. (.) 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

    The word of God is; his what God says and intents to do. He created the world by giving orders as we see in Genesis 1. That is hardly literal but it is the way we are told.

    I think 1 John clearly shows that the word was not a being before that word became flesh. The word is God's word, life, bread from Heaven;

    1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    It was with the Father and it became flesh, which is an OT expression for a man (or animal). As Jesus is the word made flesh, made a person, it is no surprise that the Bible 2 times call him the word of life (above and Rev. 19:13).

    "

    >>>"Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12" speaks of the feets of YHWH. Does YHWH literally have feet? He is Spirit, not flesh and bones, unless you are a Mormon. Jesus have literally feet though and since we have that "God was in Christ reconciling the world" (2 Cor. 5:19) we can see that YHWH and Jesus will come back the same way YHWH and Jesus left. In the same way YHWH was crucified, that is through his Son who was mortal and flesh and blood. <<<

    YHWH can have 'feet' because the incarnated Christ IS YHWH. See Rev22:3-4. Does God have a 'face'? Note that the one who's face is seen is the one who is SERVED. Can you serve a mere creature? No."

    - Why do you feel a need to say 'feet'? Because you mix a human being with God? "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19).

    As for Revelations, let us solve the problem;

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    From this we determine that verse 4 speaks of God. People saw the face of Jesus. Still it was a man of flesh and bones that walked the earth. You are not a Mormon are you?

    Naturally God is the one being served. Jesus is also being served, but he serves God.

    What kind of question is "can you serve a mere creature?" Of cause you can. Ask any person that has a job.

    "

    >>>The main problem with your interpretation of the verses in Heb. 1:10-12 is that they ignore the context of Ps. 102. This is a believer adressing YHWH. Notice what it says in verse 18; "This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD". The writer here is part of this creation. If we have in mind that the apostle is the one that speaks in Hebrews 1 while YHWH is merely being quoted, then we wont go off track because, as I detailed earlier, the "who writes what and to whom" is very different in verses 8-9 compared to 10-12. Every singel verses quoting YHWH starts of with the writer telling us who speaks to who; <<<

    That may seem viable on the outside, but what did we forget? That it is the 'Spirit of YHWH' within the prophets who speak. Not the prophet of his own accord. This is like saying that the 'OT Law' is actually Moses' because he is the 'speaker' in regards to the children of Israel."

    - That fascinating comment obviously nullify any context argument from the Bible :). No no, it is a believer that speaks in Ps. 102, not God. Obviously through the Holy Spirit. That still makes it impossible that it suddenly is God that speaks following the context.

    "

    >>>This is obviously not the case in verses 8-12;

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. <<<

    Now let's think about this one. Note that it was originally applied to 'Solomon' but is here specifically applied to Christ. Remember the Psalms "..you will not allow your holy one to see decay"? How it was 'applied to David' but was in actuality not applied to him at all, but to Christ?"

    - David would not be called Holy One. David wrote of Jesus (Acts 2:25). Now lets think about this one. God having a God? How blasphemous. No, proposal rejected. "God" doesnt mean YHWH all the time as shown in my original post.

    "

    >>>Apostle addressing YHWH (In the verses from OT, a NT saint addressing YHWH): <<<

    Rather, Apostle speaking by the Spirit of God."

    - But still in the context that a believer speaks. You cant make YHWH speak as a believer needing of salvation and praying to YHWH. God is not the one that needs salvation as the writer of Ps. 102. Your argument is truly her because it distorts the context and makes YHWH a believer.

    "

    >>>Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    On the contrary the writer skips from God speaking to a saint speaking, no longer telling us who he speaks to but instead calling YHWH "you".<<<

    But you forgot the Grk word "kai" which means 'and' that joins the two quotes. "But about the Son he say...[this]....AND....[this]"....See what I mean? And remember by this the "you" refers to the Father as speaker. Therefore He [YHWH] addresses His Son [also YHWH] through the words of the prophet onto paper."

    - Truly "you" is the The Father but you seem to forget that the speaker is the writer of Hebrews, YHWH is being quoted. You already lost it by claiming that YHWH needs salvation (Ps. 102:18-24), as the speaker of Ps. 102 needs salvation.

    "

    >>>Thus we can see that his style is very consistent. It would indeed be a let down if he had ignored who speaks to who in Ps. 102:25-27. He would be quoting out of context if he had applied Hebrews 1:10-12 as YHWHs words to the Son. The writing style here is wellknown for the timeperiod of Hebrews.<<<

    Would not be odd at all. What would be strange is if the writer of Hebrews suddenly interjected in mid-context to quote a passage of OT to merely emphasize YHWH eternality? What is the point of that, and how does it fit in with context? Note the sudden return to context in vs13..."but to the angels He says"...Should'nt he have waited until the end of the topic? Now remember the word "and" and how he is quoting two scriptures as applied to the Son."

    - The point would certainly be to praise God. You just forget that the writer of Hebrews is speaking, not YHWH, who is merely quoted. There is not oddity in verse 13, "he" is the one being quoted, thus showing that the one calling YHWH "you" is another one that this "he".

    "

    >>>Finally the prayer thing. My last post really explains it all. The Bible explains something the trinitarians would like to refute, namely that Christ receives prayers and mediator while being subject to YHWH. Where is the Son of God preached in the OT apart from "things to come"? Moses does indeed talk a bit of Jesus as "a prophet raised among you" (Deu. 18:15; Acts 3:22) but where does Moses call on Jesus? Where does he call him Lord? I would like to see it ;). Moses had one Lord, and he was himself Lord over his people. The people were "baptised into Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), which obviously does not mean what it means to be baptised into Christ. But as I have told, we had no mediator in the OT but the Law and the Law is not a person. <<<

    Simply because Jesus did not formally obtain the name "Jesus" ie. 'God our salvation' until the time of His manifestation. However you can read Judges13 to see where the Angel of YHWH (theophany) was invoked in a blessing ALONG WITH YHWH."

    - Interesting claim made necessary because you cant find Jesus in the OT. Why all this strange reading in. Please explain your points about Judges 13, including verses. This goes beyond my fantasy, but I would like to see it.

    "

    >>>Again, Jesus is never prayed to anywhere, but as he is the chief angel (or let us call him messenger, otherwise you get me wrong), both Paul and John has contact with their Lord and speaks to him after Christ has become immortal. Note the intro to Revelations;

    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    That way it should not surprise us that it was possible for the apostles to talk to the Lord. Btw, notice how that verse does not call Jesus God in this context? Why? I thought he was God the Son, so you told me<<<

    Why did you ignore the scriptures I cited that address this very thing?"

    - Not a singel one of them dealt with prayers. But you are wellcome to show exactly what you want to make out to be prayers. List every verse here. I just havent got time enough to comment on something so totally unnessary so you need to do some work for me. Is it that Jesus speaks to Saul? Is that a prayer?? Sorry, cant follow you. I obviously do comment heavily on Acts 7:59 in this post though.

    "As for message. See 1Peter1:11. The Spirit of 'Who?' IN 'whom?'...cf...Rom8:9."

    - I quote from previous in this response;

    The spirit represent either the power or lifeconduct/style of a person, forinstance the spirit of Elijah (2 Kings 2:15) or of Christ (Rom. 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11), while Gods Spirit goes beyond human limitations.

    A bad trinity argument, very bad.

    "As for delineation. Why is this a problem for Trinitarians? The Son was sent forth from the Father, not the other way around. I may as well ask you to read Jude4 then tell me why the Father is excluded from the ONE Lord in 1Cor8:6?"

    - Jude 4:

    Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ (KJV).

    What is the problem here then? Perhaps a wishfull translation? It is the exactly same thing with Titus 2:13. The true rendering is:

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Context.

    God Bless

    Edited by - Anastasis on 16 October 2002 18:45:32

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:37:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 592 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Anastasis said:

    Let us start of clearing a fundamental misunderstanding:

    Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    Stephen actually addresses God and then he asks Jesus to receive his Spirit. Prayers are done in the name of Jesus but directed to the Father, the one you normally speak to is the Father (Matt. 6).

    I checked about 16 different Bible Translations and they all said that the word "God" in Acts 7:59 was not in the original Writings.

    So, I would assume that one of these Translations might be more accurate:

    1889 Darby Bible:

    Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, praying, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    1899 Douay-Rheims Bible:

    Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    GOD'S WORD Translation:

    Acts 7:59: While council members were executing Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, welcome my spirit."

    International Standard Version:

    Acts 7:59: As they continued to stone Stephen, he kept praying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

    Literal Translation of the Holy Bible:

    Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    Revised Standard Version:

    Acts 7:59: And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

    World English Bible:

    Acts 7:59: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit!"

    1912 Weymouth Bible:

    Acts 7:59: So they stoned Stephen, while he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

    1898 Young's Literal Translation:

    Acts 7:59: and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'

    Contemporary English Version:

    Acts 7:59: As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, "Lord Jesus, please welcome me!"

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 17 October 2002 5:37:44

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:36:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 593 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Also, here are other Verses (International Standard Version) in which Jesus Christ is prayed TO:

    2nd Corinthians 12:8: I pleaded with the Lord three times to take it away from me,
    2nd Corinthians 12:9: but He has told me, "My grace is all you need, for My power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most happily boast about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
    2nd Corinthians 12:10: That is why I take such pleasure in weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and difficulties for Christ's sake, for when I am weak, then I am strong.

    Revelation 22:20: The One who is testifying to these things says, "Yes, I am Coming soon!" Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
    Revelation 22:21: May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the Saints. Amen.

    Acts 2:21: Then whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved.'

    1st Corinthians 1:2: to the Church of God in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who continually call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours.

    Romans 10:9: If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    Romans 10:10: For a person believes with his heart and is justified, and a person declares with his mouth and is saved.
    Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in Him will not be ashamed."
    Romans 10:12: For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on Him.
    Romans 10:13: For "everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
    Romans 10:14: How, then, can people call on someone they have not believed? And how can they believe in someone they have not heard about? And how can they hear without someone preaching?

    Acts 9:14: He is here with authority from the high priests to put in chains all who call on Your Name."

    Acts 9:21: All who heard him were astonished and said, "This is the man who harassed those who called on His Name in Jerusalem, isn't it? Didn't he come here to bring them in chains to the high priests?"

    Acts 22:16: What are you waiting for now? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away as you call on His Name.'

    2nd Timothy 2:22: Flee from youthful passions. Instead, pursue righteousness, faithfulness, love, and peace together with those who call on the Lord with a pure heart.
    2nd Timothy 2:23: Do not have anything to do with foolish and stupid discussions, because you know they breed arguments.
    2nd Timothy 2:24: A servant of the Lord must not argue. Instead, he must be kind to everyone, teachable, willing to suffer wrong,
    2nd Timothy 2:25: and gentle in refuting his opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,
    2nd Timothy 2:26: so that they might escape from the Devil's snare, even though they've been held captive by him to do his will.

    1st Timothy 1:12: I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who gives me strength, that He has considered me faithful and has appointed me to His service.

    Acts 1:21: Therefore, one of the men who has associated with us all the time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
    Acts 1:22: beginning with the Baptism of John until the day He was taken up from us, must become a witness with us to His Resurrection."
    Acts 1:23: So they nominated two men-Joseph called Barsabbas, who also was called Justus, and Matthias.
    Acts 1:24: Then they prayed, "Lord, you know the hearts of all people. Show us which one of these two men you have chosen
    Acts 1:25: to serve in this office of Apostle, from which Judas fell away to go to his own place."
    Acts 1:26: So they drew lots for them, and when the lot fell on Matthias, he was added to the eleven Apostles.

    Also, check out the Verses below:

    Matthew 11:28: "Come to Me, all of you who are weary and loaded down with burdens, and I will give you rest.
    Matthew 11:29: Place My yoke on you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
    Matthew 11:30: For My yoke is pleasant, and My burden is light."

    John 6:37: Everything the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away.

    John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
    John 6:45: It is written in the Prophets, 'And all of them will be taught by God.' Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned anything comes to Me.
    John 6:46: Not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who comes from God. This One has seen the Father.
    John 6:47: Truly, truly I tell you, the one who believes in Me has eternal life.

    How can we come to Jesus, if not by Prayer?

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:00:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 594 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    Also, here are a few Verses, which in my humble opinion, prove that Jesus Christ is to receive EQUAL HONOR, EQUAL GLORY, EQUAL PRAISE, and EQUAL WORSHIP with tha Father:

    John 5:21: Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to those He chooses.
    John 5:22: For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
    John 5:23: so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    Isaiah 42:8: I am YHWH, that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, neither My praise to engraved images.

    2nd Peter 3:18: Instead, continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Glory belongs to Him both now and on that eternal day! Amen.

    Revelation 19:9: Then the angel said to me, "Write this: 'How blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" He also told me, "These are the True Words of God."
    Revelation 19:10: I bowed down at his feet to worship him, but he told me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold on to the Testimony of Jesus. Worship God, because the Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy!"

    Hebrews 1:6: And again, when He brings His Firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."

    Revelation 5:6: Then I saw a Lamb standing in the middle of the throne, the four living creatures, and the elders. He looked like He had been slaughtered. He had Seven Horns and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the Earth.
    Revelation 5:7: He went and took the Scroll from the right hand of the One who sits on the throne.
    Revelation 5:8: When the Lamb had taken the Scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down in front of him. Each held a harp and a gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the Saints.
    Revelation 5:9: They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the Scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With Your Blood You purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
    Revelation 5:10: You made them a Kingdom and Priests for our God, and they will reign on the Earth."
    Revelation 5:11: Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels, the living creatures, and the elders surrounding the throne. They numbered ten thousands times ten thousand and thousands times thousands.
    Revelation 5:12: They sang with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and praise!"
    Revelation 5:13: I heard every creature in Heaven, on Earth, under the Earth, and on the sea, and everything that is in them, saying, "To the One who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and power forever and ever!"
    Revelation 5:14: Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!", and the elders bowed down and worshiped.

    Revelation 7:9: After these things I looked, and there was a large crowd that no one was able to count! They were from every nation, tribe, people, and language. They were standing in front of the throne and the Lamb and were wearing white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
    Revelation 7:10: They cried out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
    Revelation 7:11: All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell on their faces in front of the throne and worshiped God,
    Revelation 7:12: saying, "Amen! Praise, glory, wisdom, thanks, honor, power, and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen!"

    Revelation 4:8: Each of the four living creatures had six wings and were full of eyes inside and out. Without stopping day or night they were saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who Was, who Is, and who is Coming."
    Revelation 4:9: Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
    Revelation 4:10: the twenty-four elders bow down in front of the One who sits on the throne and worship the One who lives forever and ever. They throw their victor's crowns in front of the throne and say,
    Revelation 4:11: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory, honor, and power, because You created all things, and they came into existence and were created because of Your Will."

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 17 October 2002 7:0:28

    pomegranate posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:13:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 1111 of 1285
    Joined 4/4/2001

    I believe all those things regarding equal worship are true, yet Jesus willingly SUBMITS beneath the Father. He is a willing subordinate to Father

    Jesus IS NOT head, as the HEAD OF CHRIST is God the Father. That to me is the ONLY differentiation.

    So, for you trinitarians, where does the third person sit in regards to headship?

    Jeremiah Lee posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:16:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 26 of 32
    Joined 7/17/2002

    Hello and God bless,

    >>>Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    Stephen actually addresses God and then he asks Jesus to receive his Spirit. Prayers are done in the name of Jesus but directed to the Father, the one you normally speak to is the Father (Matt. 6). Stephen doesnt pray to Jesus in the vision, he speaks to him. It is totally fundamental of this vision in Acts 7:55 onward that Stephen sees Jesus. If he hadnt seen him, we have the rest of NT aswell as Matt. 6 as evidence that he would not be talking to him. Jesus even stands next to.. whom..? The Father or God the Father? No, it merely says GOD so Jesus is not God, but standing next to God. Jesus is the divine mediator and high priest receiving prayers. What says Scripture? Well; "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb. 2:17). Jesus receives the prayers of the saints and we ask of God to let them go through Jesus as they are only acceptable to God in Jesus. Jesus is a being on his own yet nessary in human relationship to God. The spirit represent either the power or lifeconduct/style of a person, forinstance the spirit of Elijah (2 Kings 2:15) or of Christ (Rom. 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11), while Gods Spirit goes beyond human limitations. Thus what Stephen really says is "Lord Jesus receive my sacrifice, give it to God, grant me life". <<<

    But here is the rub of your problem. You instantly exclude Jesus as the one prayed to, on the basis that you do not believe Jesus to be God. How do you think that someone can call upon God and yet at the same time speak to Jesus? As for the seeing ordeal; strawman. Thats your interpretation.

    >>>- The OT law is summed in Christ? I havent seen that in Sciptures. Jesus is however the bread of life that came down from Heaven. Is that literal? Is Jesus bread from Heaven? No, but he came from God and gives life. He is the life and resurrection because he is the one men of the new covenant must believe in. Christ is the word of God that became flesh. A word is not being anymore than the Law is a being. You confuse literal speaking with non literal speaking. It is true Gods word created the world. See; <<<

    Youve got to be kidding me? What did Jesus fulfill? What did the Law represent? Read:

    Luke24:25 "He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

    Col2:17 "These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

    >>>Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. (.) 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. <<<

    Isaiah states that YHWH made the earth with His HANDS. Going to take that literally too? Read:

    Jer1:10..cf..1Cor1:24

    >>>I think 1 John clearly shows that the word was not a being before that word became flesh. The word is God's word, life, bread from Heaven;

    1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) <<<

    Rather it demonstrates Christs continued position as the Word of God..cf..also Rev19:13. It doesnt have to mention the "becoming flesh". Why should it?

    >>>- Why do you feel a need to say 'feet'? Because you mix a human being with God? "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19). <<<

    Well of course at the time He said this He was NOT a man. How hard is that to see? No more strawmen please.

    >>>Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    From this we determine that verse 4 speaks of God. People saw the face of Jesus. Still it was a man of flesh and bones that walked the earth. You are not a Mormon are you? <<<

    What point was this supposed to make? BOTH names are written on the people. And you may want to note that the word for serve is latreuo which is a service only allowable to God. Otherwise we have a classic case of idolatry.

    >>>- David would not be called Holy One. David wrote of Jesus (Acts 2:25). Now lets think about this one. God having a God? How blasphemous. No, proposal rejected. "God" doesnt mean YHWH all the time as shown in my original post. <<<

    How is this blasphemous? Unless you speak of tritheism, there is no problem. Unless you speak of that OUTSIDE of the Godhead [e.g. a creature over/giving TO God], there is no problem. Just like that "giving" strawman argument. A man is god over his wife as I am god over my arms as the Father is god over His only Son. Need we bring up the shallow view of the anti-Trinitarian in regards to Jesus positional fulfillment in taking the role of man FOR us?

    >>>- That fascinating comment obviously nullify any context argument from the Bible :). No no, it is a believer that speaks in Ps. 102, not God. Obviously through the Holy Spirit. That still makes it impossible that it suddenly is God that speaks following the context. <<<

    Thats called inspiration.

    And there is no "contradiction". God speaks THROUGH the prophet concerning HIS SON, who is also YHWH. Therefore when the prophet says "In the beginning O Lord,.." we can perfectly well have the Father addressing the Son THROUGH a prophet JUST AS Yhwh did with David concerning the "Holy One not seeing decay".

    Father addressing the Son through a prophet for our reading benefit. Want another example?

    Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12 Who is to fulfill this? Jesus? Yes. Note that Zech is a PROPHECY spoken BY YHWH THROUGH a prophet concerning the SON. Whether this is an example of alledged "agency" or not, the fact remains clear that the Father is using the title "YHWH" to refer to the Son. Dito on Heb1:10-12.

    The only reason you cant see it is because youve carried your own presuppositions into the text that Jesus is not YHWH.

    >>>- But still in the context that a believer speaks. You cant make YHWH speak as a believer needing of salvation and praying to YHWH. God is not the one that needs salvation as the writer of Ps. 102. Your argument is truly her because it distorts the context and makes YHWH a believer. <<<

    You cant take one word and apply the same meaning to all occurences. So was Jesus in need of salvation from SIN? I think not....

    >>>- Truly "you" is the The Father but you seem to forget that the speaker is the writer of Hebrews, YHWH is being quoted. You already lost it by claiming that YHWH needs salvation (Ps. 102:18-24), as the speaker of Ps. 102 needs salvation. <<<

    Ah, this is interesting. Apply what is NOT quoted as being wholly applicable to the NT reference.

    Do you know what would happen if we did this to ALL scriptural citations?

    Read:

    Is7:14 "Therefore YHWH will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birht to a son, and will call HimImmanuel. He will eat curds ad honey when he knows enough to reject wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

    Where is the bolded scripture fulfilled in Christ? At the virgin birth? No. NOWHERE.

    >>>- The point would certainly be to praise God. You just forget that the writer of Hebrews is speaking, not YHWH, who is merely quoted. There is not oddity in verse 13, "he" is the one being quoted, thus showing that the one calling YHWH "you" is another one that this "he". <<<

    Thats the whole point. It is a fact that the author of Hebrews is quoting OT SCRIPTURE to make a point. Why suddenly interject MID-CONTEXT, to point out what? YHWHs eternality?

    As for he vs you; Because the "you" is part of the quote, whereas "he" is the authors 3 rd person narrative. Easy.

    >>>- Interesting claim made necessary because you cant find Jesus in the OT. Why all this strange reading in. Please explain your points about Judges 13, including verses. This goes beyond my fantasy, but I would like to see it. <<<

    I can find a prophecy of the name Jesus in Zech. But you wont find YHWH referred to directly as "Yeshua" as the time for SACRIFICE had not come. Why are these kind of obvious to answer questions getting asked?

    >>>- Not a singel one of them dealt with prayers. But you are wellcome to show exactly what you want to make out to be prayers. List every verse here. I just havent got time enough to comment on something so totally unnessary so you need to do some work for me. Is it that Jesus speaks to Saul? Is that a prayer?? Sorry, cant follow you. I obviously do comment heavily on Acts 7:59 in this post though. <<<

    "Calling on the Lord" ..cf..Gen is equated with prayer. How do you "call on the LORD" if you can't see Him? Sounds like prayer to me. Now address those scriptures.

    >>>"As for message. See 1Peter1:11. The Spirit of 'Who?' IN 'whom?'...cf...Rom8:9."

    - I quote from previous in this response;

    The spirit represent either the power or lifeconduct/style of a person, forinstance the spirit of Elijah (2 Kings 2:15) or of Christ (Rom. 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11), while Gods Spirit goes beyond human limitations.

    A bad trinity argument, very bad. <<<

    This is merely an example of false equivocation. There is a huge difference. Note the fact that the Spirit of Christ IN them is the very thing that is ACTIVELY doing the prophecy. Did the prophets do this on their own? No. What did the literal foreseeing? The Spirit of Christ. Note it was the Spirit that was pointing to future events. This is not like saying "the spirit of the Alps" or some other.

    >>>"As for delineation. Why is this a problem for Trinitarians? The Son was sent forth from the Father, not the other way around. I may as well ask you to read Jude4 then tell me why the Father is excluded from the ONE Lord in 1Cor8:6?"

    - Jude 4:

    Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ (KJV).

    What is the problem here then? Perhaps a wishfull translation? It is the exactly same thing with Titus 2:13. The true rendering is:

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; <<<

    What is this? KJV-onlyism? I invite you to check ALL modern translations concerning this verse. Sadly for you, the KJV was written prior to the discovery of some very important rules in Greek grammar. You might want to go ahead AFTER that, and answer my point on 1Cor8:6.

    God bless you Anastasis--Lee

    Jeremiah Lee posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:20:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 27 of 32
    Joined 7/17/2002

    >>>I believe all those things regarding equal worship are true, yet Jesus willingly SUBMITS beneath the Father. He is a willing subordinate to Father

    Jesus IS NOT head, as the HEAD OF CHRIST is God the Father. That to me is the ONLY differentiation.

    So, for you trinitarians, where does the third person sit in regards to headship? <<<

    What does the bible say the HS's job is? To bring glory and to witness to the Son who in turn brings glory to the Father. There's your answer. ;)

    God bless--Lee

    Jeremiah Lee posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:21:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 28 of 32
    Joined 7/17/2002

    ??

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:30:00 GMT(10/17/2002)

    Post 597 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    God Bless You Both, Anastasis and Lee!

    A couple final Verses for now (I will post more soon):

    Matthew 5:17: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them.
    Matthew 5:18: For truly I tell you, until Heaven and Earth disappear, not one Letter or one Stroke of a Letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Tue, 04 Mar 2003 13:23:00 GMT(3/4/2003)

    Post 1349 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    I sincerely apologize for taking this long to post more information on this Thread. I really am sorry.

    I am going to reply to Anastasis' first post on this Thread:

    In the English language "God" is an odd alienated word. It is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god. But really, the Hebrew words Eloah/Elohim/El etc. means might, mighty one or mighty ones. So a human being can most certainly be God, ie. be mighty. A fine example is found in Ezekiel 31:11 where King Nebucadnezar is called God of the heathens by God himself. This is hidden by most translaters that renders it "mighty one" for once. But the Hebrew word here is "El" and that is the exact same word used in Isaiah 43:10 where "God" (well what can I do..? hard to change such a tradition) tells us that He is the only El aswell as the only Saviour in verse 11, which is perfectly true, Jesus needed to be saved and needed God (Heb. 5:7). Likewise Solomon is called God (mighty one) in Ps. 45:7 and Hezekiah Mighty God (rather brave/valiant mighty one) in Isa. 9:6. Angels are called Gods in Ps. 8:5 (compare to Heb. 2:7).

    I do agree, a human or an angel certainly can be CALLED "GOD". But the Bible says that to Christians, there is only One True God and only One True Lord.

    1st Corinthians 8:5-6: For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the Heavens or on Earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and One Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through Him.

    1st Corinthians 8:5-6 separates The Father and The Son as being Unique from ALL creatures which are called "god" or "lord".

    The Bible says that the Father is the "Only True God" (John 17:3) and the Bible says that Jesus is "our Only Sovereign Lord" (Jude 1:4).

    I have seen a few people try to refute the Trinity by using 1st Corinthians 8:5-6 to claim that the Bible is saying that ONLY The Father is the True God. But, you see, that argument completely falls apart when you read the last part of Verse 6, because using the same reasoning, it means that ONLY The Son is the True Lord.

    When the Bible calls The Father "The Only True God", does that exclude The Son from also being the Only True God? No. When the Bible calls The Son "The Only Sovereign Lord and Master" does that exclude The Father from also being "The Only Sovereign Lord"? No.

    Galatians 4:8: However at that time, not knowing God, you were in bondage to those who by nature are not gods.

    Galatians 4:8 says that there is only One God by nature. Also notice that there are several so-called "gods" which are not by nature.

    On what basis can you say that The Father is God by nature, but The Son is not? The Bible says that Jesus Christ has ALL of the Fullness of the Very Nature of God:

    Colossians 2:9: For in Him [Jesus Christ] all of the Fullness of the Nature of God dwells Bodily

    Philippians 2:5-6: Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the Form of God, didn't consider it robbery to be equal with God

    Hebrews 1:3: His Son is the Radiance of His Glory, the Very Image of His Substance, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High

    John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    So, the Scriptures are very clear -- Jesus Christ has the Very Nature, Form, and Essence of God -- But the Scriptures also say that there is Only One God who is God by nature, therefore, that means that The Father and The Son and The Spirit are the One and Only True God!

    Ezekiel 31:11 does not use the same Hebrew word as is used for God. The Hebrew word for "mighty one" in Ezekiel 31:11 is "ayil", which is never used in reference to God Almighty in the Bible.

    You said that Psalm 45 is about Solomon. Well, then how do explain the following Verse:

    Psalm 45:17: I will make Your Name to be remembered in all generations. Therefore the peoples shall give You thanks forever and ever.

    Can you explain how the "peoples" are giving thanks to Solomon forever and ever? (especially since the Bible shows that Solomon turned away from the True God)

    The One who is being described in Psalm 45 is not a mere human being, it is Jesus Christ, the Almighty God! The writer of the Book of Hebrews states clearly that Psalm 45 is speaking about JESUS. (Hebrews 1:8)

    Also, you said that Isaiah 9:6 is about Hezekiah.

    Isaiah 9:6-7: For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the Government shall be on His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His Government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this.

    How is Hezekiah our "Eternal Father"? How is Hezekiah ruling over God's Kingdom "forever and ever"?

    Being mighty is really something very difficult to measure. To an ancient person the argument of trinitarians arguing that there is only one God in all contexts, wouldnt put anything put a smile on his face. The problem is made by mens tradition and theology, not by the Bible that always require of its readers to study it hard and be careful what to conclude. We humans accept a human being is mighty and so much more is a heavenly angel, yet he is not to God. YHWH is the supreme God, he is also the only "real/true" God. That is the exact point of Jesus in John 17:3 where He addresses God as the only true God. The only real powerful one or as David simply puts it in Ps. 36:9, God owns the source of Life. He has that power than made it possible for Him to give Jesus life in himself (John 5:26).

    See above for my comments on John 17:3.

    I will try to post more soon.

    UnDisfellowshipped posted Tue, 27 May 2003 06:23:00 GMT(5/27/2003)

    Post 1563 of 2769
    Joined 8/11/2002

    All About the Biblical Trinity

    By UnDisfellowshipped ( UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com )

    I can understand why certain people do not understand the Trinity, especially the way the Watchtower Society (and certain other religions) has always misrepresented the Trinity.

    I am not a Bible expert, but I would like to post some information below.

    I have spent several days writing this post (probably a week), because I want to make sure and correct any errors in it. I am hoping that this post can be a resource for people to look up information about the Trinity, so I am warning everyone that this is going to be a big post.

    I request that if I make any errors or mistakes, that someone please correct me. I have been wrong on things before, however, I never ever want to be wrong on anything about the Bible, but I am sure I will make some mistakes.

    Also, please never ever believe what I say about the Bible unless you closely and carefully examine the Scriptures to make sure what is true.

    First, I want to explain exactly what I believe about the Trinity (which, I have noticed, is also what most Trinitarian Christians believe about the Trinity).

    My beliefs are based entirely on what I have read in the Scriptures.

    Here are my beliefs about the Trinity:

    There is only One True God by Nature. All other "gods" are not really gods at all. They may be relatively considered as "mighty ones", but they certainly are not truly God by Nature.

    Every false god will be destroyed.

    The One True God has the following Attributes:

    The One God is Eternal (has always existed and always will), Immortal (His Divine Nature cannot die), Omnipotent (All-Powerful), Omniscient (All-Knowing), Omnipresent (He is everywhere at the same time), God is the Only One who can read human hearts and minds, God cannot sin and cannot lie, God does not change His morals or His Nature. The One God is the Only One who has the Power and Authority to Create -- God is the Only Creator. God has Perfect Love, Perfect Justice, Perfect Wisdom, Perfect Mercy, Perfect Grace, Perfect Judgment.

    There are Three Persons who are the One True God. All Three share all of the Attributes listed above.

    The Three Persons are: The Father, The Son [Jesus Christ], and The Holy Spirit. All Three share the Name Yahweh (Jehovah).

    They are Three Distinct Persons, but they are in Unity as Only One God. Trinity = Three-In-Unity.

    The Trinity is NOT one person revealed three different ways (this is what "Oneness Pentecostals" believe).

    The Trinity is NOT three gods (although the Watchtower and some other Non-Trinitarians claim this quite often).

    The Trinity is NOT a "Three-Headed God" like the Watchtower occasionally claims.

    The Father has a Higher Position in Heaven than The Son and The Spirit (because The Son and The Spirit willingly submit to The Father's last word, although all Three definitely are involved in the decision-making process), but all Three are Equal in their Nature, Essence, Attributes, Powers, and Qualities.

    Think about it this way: According to the Bible, a husband has a higher position of authority over the wife, but both share the same nature (human beings), and they are both equal in their nature as human beings. Also, notice that the Bible says that a husband and wife become "One Flesh" in unity. So a husband and wife are "One Flesh" even though they are two distinct persons.

    There are many, many Scriptures that support the Trinity, but here are the most important ones (at least for my belief), and I will post some of my comments below each Scripture:

    First of all, I'm pretty sure that every Christian religion in the world believes that The Father is God Almighty, so I probably don't need to post any Scriptures that prove The Father is God.

    So, first I will focus on Jesus Christ:

    John 1:1-3: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing came to be which has come to be.

    There seems to be some controversy as to John 1:1 among different Christian religions.

    Well, we definitely know who "the Word" is, because the following Verses reveals who "the Word" is:

    John 1:14: And the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Revelation 19:13 and 16: And He is clothed in a robe having been dipped in Blood, and His Name is called The Word of God. ... And He has on His robe and on His thigh a Name having been written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    So, the Word is Jesus.

    Now, John 1:1 says that the Word was with God in the beginning and the Word was God in the beginning.

    Who is the Person called "God" that the Word was with in the beginning? Well, since the Bible explains and interprets itself, we need to look at 1st John 1:1-3, which reveals who the Word was with in the beginning:

    1st John 1:1-3: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have gazed upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life -- and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and we declare to you the Eternal Life which was with the Father and was manifested to us -- that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, in order that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

    So, we find out that the Word (Jesus) was with God The Father in the beginning, and that the Word (Jesus) was God (The Son).

    Trinitarian Interpretation of John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [The Father], and the Word was God [The Son]."

    But, below is how some others interpret John 1:1:

    Oneness Pentecostal Interpretation of John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [The Father], and the Word was God [The Father]." (Oneness Pentecostals believe that The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit are all One Person, who reveals Himself in three different ways)

    Jehovah's Witnesses (and several other Non-Trinitarians) Interpretation of John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [The Almighty; The Father], and the Word was a god [an inferior, lesser separate being; not Almighty God]."

    The Greek word used for "God" in John 1:1 is the same both times the word "God" appears -- "Theos", but yet, as shown above, some religions try to claim that Jesus is an inferior lesser "god" than The Father.
    ________________________________

    Now, I'll post and comment on more Scriptures which support the Trinity:

    "AGuest", the Bible itself says that God becoming a Human is a MYSTERY:

    1st Timothy 3:16: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.

    This is a very clear and straightforward declaration that Jesus was God in the Flesh. But, unfortunately, several modern Translations change this Scripture around, and instead of saying "God was manifested", they say either "who was manifested" or He who was manifested".

    However, the word "He" is not found in any ancient Greek Manuscript for 1 Timothy 3:16, so that means there are only two options as to the correct reading of 1 Timothy 3:16:

    "great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh"
    OR
    "great is the mystery of godliness: who was manifested in the flesh"

    Well, 1 Timothy 3:16 was quoted by early Christian Church Fathers, which I will show below:

    Ignatius (who lived during 35-116 A.D.) quoted 1 Timothy 3:16 in "To the Ephesians 1:1:7", and 1 Timothy 3:16 read "God was manifest in the flesh".

    Also, notice the following writings of Ignatius from 90 A.D.:

    "There is one physician, both fleshly and spiritual; made and not made; God in the flesh" (To the Ephesians 2:7) and "God himself being made manifest in the form of a man." (To the Ephesians 4:13).

    Hippolytus (who lived during 170-236 A.D.) quoted 1 Timothy 3:16 in "Against the Heresies of Noetus I: 1:17", and 1 Timothy 3:16 read "God was manifested in the flesh."

    Quote from Hippolytus in 190 A.D.:

    “A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject,” and “And even as He was preached then, in the same manner also did He come and manifest Himself, being by the Virgin and the Holy Spirit made a new man; for in that He had the heavenly (nature) of the Father, as the Word and the earthly (nature), as taking to Himself the flesh from the old Adam by the medium of the Virgin, He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man" ("Hippolytus, Against The Heresy Of One Noetus, viii and xvii")

    Dionysius (who lived during the 3rd Century A.D.) quoted 1 Timothy 3:16 in "Conciliations I: 1:853" and 1 Timothy 3:16 read "For God was manifested in the flesh."

    Quote from Gregory of Nyssa (in A.D. 370):

    "How is it that he who speaks thus fails to understand that God when manifested in flesh did not admit for the formation of His own body the conditions of human nature, but was born for us a Child by the Holy Ghost and the power of the Highest;" ("Gregory, Against Eunomius, 2:7")

    Gregory of Nyssa quotes 1 Timothy 3:16 at least 22 times, each time he quotes "God was manifested".

    Also, here is a partial list of some Bible Translations that read "God was manifest in the flesh":

    Georgian Version (6th century)
    Harkleian Version (7th century)
    Slavonic Version (9th century)
    Tyndale (1534)
    Great Bible (1539)
    Geneva New Testament (1557)
    Bishops' Bible (1568)
    King James Version (1611)
    Webster Bible (1833)
    Young (1862)
    Darby Bible (1889)
    Young's Literal Translation (1898)
    Literal Translation of the Holy Bible
    English Majority Text Version
    World English Bible
    Analytical-Literal Translation
    New King James Version
    Modern King James Version
    Hebrew Names Version (2000)
    Third Millennium Bible
    The Amplified Bible
    ________________________________

    Philippians 2:5-11: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the Form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a slave, and coming to be in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a Man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him, and has graciously given Him a Name which is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee may bow, of those in Heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Philippians 2:5-11 teaches that Jesus, before coming to Earth, existed in the "Form of God". The Greek word for "Form" basically means the external appearance. So Jesus existed in the external appearance of God Almighty, and He was also equal to God the Father. Jesus then "emptied Himself" of the external appearance of God and added His Human Nature to His Divine Nature. He humbled Himself and died for us as a Human. Jesus' Divine Nature never did go out of existence. God resurrected Jesus' Human Nature, and exalted Jesus to His right hand, and now everyone should bow down to Jesus and proclaim Jesus as Lord. The Name of JESUS [Yahweh is Salvation] is above every name!
    ________________________________

    John 1:3: All things came to be through Him [the Word], and without Him nothing came to be which has come to be.

    Colossians 1:15-20: He [Jesus] is the Image of the Invisible God, the Firstborn over all creation, because by Him all things were created, those in the Heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together. And He is the Head of the body, the Church, who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have the preeminence, For it pleased the Father that in Him all the Fullness should dwell, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on the earth or things in the Heavens, having made peace through the Blood of His Cross.

    Jesus created all things for Himself. Jesus existed before all created things. The Universe is held together by Jesus.

    Ephesians 3:9: and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the mystery, which had been hidden from the ages in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;

    God the Father created ALL things through Jesus. So, if Jesus was created by God, how did God create Jesus through Jesus, and how did Jesus exist before all created things, if He Himself was a created thing?
    ________________________________

    Hebrews 1:1-14: God, who in various ways and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the Effulgence of His glory and the Exact Expression of His Substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty On High, having become so much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent Name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him for a Father, and He shall be to Me for a Son"? But when He again brings the Firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." And on the one hand He says to the angels, "He who makes His angels spirits and His ministers flames of fire." But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions." And: "You, LORD [Yahweh], in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You continue; and they all shall grow old like a garment; and like a cloak You will roll them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail." But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet"? Are they not all ministering spirits being sent out to minister for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?

    Hebrews Chapter 1 is very, very clear that Jesus is not a created angel. In fact, that was the entire purpose of Hebrews Chapter 1, to prove that Jesus was not a created angel.

    Jesus is the Exact Effulgence of The Father's glory. Jesus is the Exact Expression of The Father's Substance. Jesus upholds all things by His power. The Father created the worlds through Jesus.

    In Hebrews Chapter 1, The Father commands all of His angels to worship Jesus. The Father calls Jesus God, whose throne is forever and ever. The Father calls Jesus LORD [Yahweh in Hebrew]. The Father says that Jesus created the Heavens and the Earth in the beginning. The Father says that Jesus is the same forever.
    ________________________________

    Colossians 2:9: For in Him [Jesus] dwells all the Fullness of the Divine Nature of God [Deity; Godhead; Godship] Bodily;

    All of the Fullness of the Divine Nature of God dwells in Jesus Christ's Human Body.
    ________________________________

    John 20:27-29: Then He said to Thomas, "Bring your finger here, and see My hands; and bring your hand here, and put it into My side. Be not unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "The Lord of me and the God of me!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

    The Apostle Thomas declared that Jesus was his God and Lord. If Jesus is not Almighty God, then that means Thomas was a polytheist and a blasphemer [and Jesus would be too because Jesus did not correct Thomas, in fact, Jesus commended Thomas!].
    ________________________________

    Titus 2:13-14: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people as His own possession, zealous for good works.

    That Verse is very clear -- it says that Jesus is God.
    ________________________________

    2nd Peter 1:1: Simon Peter, a slave and Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

    That Verse is very clear -- it says that Jesus is God.
    ________________________________

    Romans 9:5: of whom are the fathers and from whom Christ came, according to the Flesh, He who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    Jesus is God over all!
    ________________________________

    1 John 5:20: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is True; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the True God and Eternal Life.

    Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the True God and Eternal Life, along with The Father!
    ________________________________

    Notice, God Almighty is The Alpha and The Omega and The Beginning and The End and The First and The Last:

    Isaiah 41:4: Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Yahweh, am the First and the Last; I am He.

    Isaiah 44:6: So says Yahweh, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer Yahweh of Hosts; I am the First, and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God.

    Isaiah 48:11-12: For My sake, for My sake I will do it; for why should My Name be defiled? And I will not give My glory to another. Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the First, I also am the Last.

    Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "He who is and He who was and He who is to come, The Almighty."

    Revelation 21:6-7: And He said to me, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give from the spring of the water of life freely to him that is thirsty. He that overcomes I shall give to him these things, and I shall be God to him, and he shall be to Me a son.

    Notice, in the following Verses, Jesus Christ is The Alpha and The Omega, The Beginning and The End, and The First and The Last:

    Revelation 1:17-18: And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He put His right hand on me, saying, "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and became dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Death and of Hades.

    Revelation 2:8: "And to the angel of the Church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who became dead, and came to life:

    Revelation 22:12-13: "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

    Revelation 22:16: I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you for the Churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

    Also, in Revelation 1:8, I personally believe it is Jesus Christ talking, but some people believe it is the Father speaking:

    Revelation 1:7-8: Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen!. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "He who is and He who was and He who is to come, The Almighty."
    ________________________________

    Act 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the Church of the Lord, and of God, which He purchased with His own Blood.

    God purchased the Church with His own Blood.
    ________________________________

    Isaiah 7:14: So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His Name Immanuel.

    Matthew 1:21-23: And she shall bring forth a Son, and you shall call His Name JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sins." Now all this came to pass that the thing spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, "Behold, the virgin shall be with Child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His Name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

    Notice that the Name JESUS ("Jehovah is Salvation") describes who the Messiah is -- the angel said that He was named JESUS because He was going to save His people -- so Jesus is Jehovah our Salvation.

    Also, in the same way, Matthew explains that Jesus is Immanuel, God with us.
    ________________________________

    Now I will comment on some of the arguments that some people use against the Trinity:

    A lot of Anti-Trinitarians try to use John 17:3 to prove that The Father is the Only True God to the exclusion of The Son.

    John 17:3: And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

    But that arguement falls apart when you look at Jude 1:4 and 1 Timothy 6:14-16.

    Jude 1:4: For certain men have crept in unawares, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, changing the grace of our God into licentiousness and denying our Only Sovereign Ruler and Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jude 1:4 says that Jesus is our Only Sovereign Ruler and Lord. Is that to the exclusion of The Father? Does that mean The Father is not our Sovereign Ruler and Lord? Anti-Trinitarians will say no of course, but yet, the Anti-Trinitarians still insist on claiming that John 17:3 proves that Jesus cannot be the True God.

    1st Timothy 6:14-16: that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will show in His own time, He who is the Blessed and Only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or is able to see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

    1 Timothy 6:14-16 says that Jesus is the Lord of lords and King of kings, and that Jesus is the Only Sovereign, and that Jesus alone has Immortality [can not ever die].

    But do those Verses exclude the Father from being Lord of lords and King of kings or from being the Sovereign? Do those Verses exclude the Father from being Immortal? Absolutely not, and Non-Trinitarian Christians will definitely agree to that.

    So, when the Bible says that One of the Persons of God is "The Only Sovereign" or "The Only God", that does not exclude the other Persons of God from also being the same.
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    The Watchtower Society likes to use the following Verses to try to disprove the Trinity:

    Matthew 19:16-17: And behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the Commandments."

    However, let's think about that Scripture.

    The man who came to Jesus obviously thought Jesus was only a human, so I believe that Jesus was basically asking the man, "You think I am only a Man, so why do you call Me 'Good Teacher'. There is only One who is Truly Good and deserves to have the title 'Good', and that is God."

    I believe that Jesus was actually trying to show that He was God, and that no one should be given the title "Good" except God.

    In fact, Jesus Himself applies the Title "Good" to Himself:

    John 10:11: I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His Life for the sheep.

    John 10:14: I am the Good Shepherd; and I know My own, and I am known by My own.

    And, who was the Good Shepherd in the Old Testament?

    Psalm 23:1-6: Yahweh is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. Yes, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of Yahweh forever.

    Isaiah 40:10-11: Behold, the Lord Yahweh will come with a strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him. He shall feed His flock like a shepherd; He shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom, and shall gently lead those with young.
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    Also, I have seen several Non-Trinitarians claim that since God cannot sin, and if Jesus is God, then Satan's temptations in the wilderness were fake, because Jesus could not possibly have ever sinned.

    Well, it is true that Jesus could not ever have sinned.

    But think about this, even if Jesus was only a human on earth, He still COULD NOT have sinned. It would not have been possible.

    Let me explain why:

    God cannot lie (Titus 1:2)

    God promised that Jesus would be sinless and sacrifice His Life.

    Therefore, even if Jesus was only a human, there would have been no way that Jesus could have sinned, because that would have made God a liar, and that is impossible.
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    Also, several Non-Trinitarians claim that Jesus could not have been God, because God cannot be tempted.

    Well, according to the following Scriptures, God certainly can be tempted and tested, but God cannot sin:

    Matthew 4:7: Jesus said to him [Satan], "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "

    It is obvious that God can be tempted, or else why would God have made the Commandment "You shall not tempt God"?

    Exodus 17:1-7: At Jehovah's command, the people of Israel left the Sin Desert and moved from place to place. Eventually they came to Rephidim, but there was no water to be found there. So once more the people grumbled and complained to Moses. "Give us water to drink!" they demanded."Quiet!" Moses replied. "Why are you arguing with me? And why are you tempting Jehovah?" But tormented by thirst, they continued to complain, "Why did you ever take us out of Egypt? Why did you bring us here? We, our children, and our livestock will all die!" Then Moses pleaded with Jehovah, "What should I do with these people? They are about to stone me!" Jehovah said to Moses, "Take your shepherd's staff, the one you used when you struck the water of the Nile. Then call some of the leaders of Israel and walk on ahead of the people. I will meet you by the rock at Mount Sinai. Strike the rock, and water will come pouring out. Then the people will be able to drink." Moses did just as he was told; and as the leaders looked on, water gushed out. Moses named the place Massah--"the place of tempting"--and Meribah--"the place of arguing"--because the people of Israel argued with Moses and tempted Jehovah by saying, "Is Jehovah going to take care of us or not?"

    Numbers 14:22: because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted Me now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice

    Deuteronomy 6:16: You shall not tempt Jehovah your God as you tempted Him in Massah.

    Psalm 78:18: They willfully tempted God in their hearts, demanding the foods they craved.

    Psalm 78:41: They tempted Him again and again, and provoked the Holy One of Israel.

    Psalm 78:56: Yet they tempted and provoked the Most High God, And did not keep His Testimonies,

    Psalm 95:8-9: Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness, when your fathers tempted Me, and put Me to the test, though they had seen My work.

    Psalm 106:14: But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, And tempted God in the desert.

    Isaiah 7:12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I tempt Jehovah!"

    Acts 5:9: Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

    Acts 15:10: Now therefore, why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

    So, since the Bible shows very clearly that God Almighty can be tempted (but He cannot sin), then, there is no conflict with the Doctrine of the Trinity when Jesus was tempted:

    Matthew 16:1: Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and tempting Him [Jesus] asked that He would show them a sign from Heaven.

    Matthew 19:3: The Pharisees also came to Him [Jesus], tempting Him, ...

    Matthew 22:18: But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you tempt Me, you hypocrites?

    Matthew 22:35: Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him [Jesus] a question, tempting Him ...

    1st Corinthians 10:9: nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents

    Hebrews 2:18: For in that He [Jesus] Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

    Hebrews 6:3-11: But Christ, the Faithful Son, was in charge of the entire household. And we are God's household, if we keep up our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ. That is why the Holy Spirit says, "Today you must listen to His voice. Don't harden your hearts against Him as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tempted God in the wilderness. There your ancestors tempted Me, even though they saw My miracles for forty years. So I was angry with them, and I said, `Their hearts always turn away from Me. They refuse to do what I tell them.' So in My anger I made a Vow: `They will never enter My place of rest.'"

    Hebrews 4:15: For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but [Jesus] was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
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    1st Corinthians 8:5-6: For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the Heavens or on Earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and One Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through Him.

    I have seen a few people try to refute the Trinity by using 1st Corinthians 8:5-6 to claim that the Bible is saying that ONLY The Father is the True God. But, you see, that argument completely falls apart when you read the last part of 1st Corinthians 8:6, because using the same reasoning, it means that ONLY The Son is the True Lord to the exclusion of The Father.

    The Bible says that the Father is the "Only True God" (John 17:3) and the Bible says that Jesus is the "Only Sovereign Ruler and Lord" (Jude 1:4).

    1st Corinthians 8:5-6 separates The Father and The Son as being Unique from ALL creatures which are called "god" or "lord".

    When the Bible calls The Father the "Only True God", does that exclude The Son from also being the Only True God? No. When the Bible calls The Son the "Only Sovereign Ruler and Lord" does that exclude The Father from also being the "Only Sovereign Ruler and Lord"? No.

    Galatians 4:8: However at that time, not knowing God, you were in bondage to those who by nature are not gods.

    Galatians 4:8 says that there is only One God by nature. Also notice that there are several so-called "gods" which are not by nature.

    On what basis can someone say that The Father is God by nature, but The Son is not? The Bible says that Jesus Christ has ALL of the Fullness of the Very Nature of God:

    Colossians 2:9: For in Him [Jesus Christ] all of the Fullness of the Divine Nature of God dwells Bodily

    Philippians 2:5-6: Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the Form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God

    Hebrews 1:3: His Son is the Radiance of His Glory, the Very Image of His Substance, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High

    John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    So, the Scriptures are very clear -- Jesus Christ has the Very Nature, Form, and Essence of God -- But the Scriptures also say that there is Only One God who is God by nature, therefore, that means that The Father and The Son and The Spirit are the One and Only True God!
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    I have also seen a few people say that Psalm 45 is talking about Solomon. Well, I would like for those people to explain the following Verse:

    Psalm 45:17: I will make Your Name to be remembered in all generations. Therefore the peoples shall give You thanks forever and ever.

    Can those people explain how the "peoples" are giving thanks to Solomon forever and ever? (especially since the Bible shows that Solomon turned away from the True God)

    The One who is being described in Psalm 45 is not a mere human being, it is Jesus Christ, the Almighty God! The writer of the Book of Hebrews states clearly that Psalm 45 is speaking about JESUS. (Hebrews 1:8)

    Psalm 45:6: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; the staff of Your Kingdom is a staff of righteousness.

    And that Verse is talking about Solomon?
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    The Watchtower Society uses a really, really bad argument against the Trinity (but it is a good argument to use against Oneness Pentecostals).

    Quotes from Watchtower Publications:
    Live Forever in Paradise on Earth Book (1982 and 1989), Page 39:
    If Jesus were the Almighty God, he would not have prayed to himself, would he?
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    The Watchtower, June 1, 1988 Issue, Page 13:
    15. When Jesus was about to die, he showed subjection to his Father in praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was Jesus praying? To himself? No, he was praying to his Father in heaven. This is clearly shown by his saying: “Let, not my will, but yours take place.” And then, at his death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself? No, he was crying out to his Father who was in heaven.
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    Reasoning Book (1989), Pages 407-408, "Trinity":
    If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father’s will.
    [...]
    So, Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from the Father.
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    Proclaimers Book (1993), Page 126:
    Brother Russell outspokenly exposed the foolishness of professing to believe the Bible while at the same time teaching a doctrine such as the Trinity, which contradicts what the Bible says. Thus he wrote: “In what a jumble of contradictions and confusion do they find themselves who say that Jesus and the Father are one God! This would involve the idea that our Lord Jesus acted the hypocrite when on earth and only pretended to address God in prayer, when He Himself was the same God
    ------------------------------------------------------
    The Watchtower, October 15, 1994 Issue, Page 13:
    Christendom’s unscriptural teaching of the Trinity, that Jesus was both man and God at the same time, obscures the Bible’s message. It hinders people from understanding the Bible’s simplicity and power. Whom did the man Jesus invoke? Himself?
    ------------------------------------------------------

    The Watchtower intentionally confuses the heck out of people, because they are using an argument against Oneness Pentecostals as an argument against the Trinity. Trinitarians already believe that Jesus and the Father are Two Distinct Persons, and that the Son is in subjection to the Father.
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    Also, another really, really bad argument the Watchtower uses against the Trinity, is by saying that it is "too confusing" and it is "too hard for the average human to understand" and it is a "mystery" and God is not a God of confusion.

    I could say the exact same thing about God existing eternally in the past and eternally in the future. Isn't that "too hard for the average human to understand"?

    Also, the Bible itself teaches that God becoming a Human was a mystery:

    1st Timothy 3:16: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
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    And, I think this is one of the worst arguments, the Watchtower and other Anti-Trinitarians claim that the Trinity had "Pagan origins" because some ancient Pagan religions believed in Three Gods or in Triune Gods.

    Well, some ancient Pagan religions also believed in one God. So, what does that prove?

    Also, here is an interesting scenario: Since Satan knows the True Nature of God, and Satan is the ultimate counterfeiter, couldn't Satan have created counterfeit Triune Gods in his false religions he started?

    In fact, according to Revelation, Satan is going to create the biggest counterfeit "trinity" ever in the future: The Dragon [Satan], The Beast [Antichrist], and The False Prophet.
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    And, now for the worst argument the Watchtower uses against the Trinity: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible". And they use that a lot too, but it really is a pathetic argument.

    Think about this: The word "Bible" is not in the Bible. The word "Organization" is not in the Bible. The word "Theocracy" is not in the Bible. The word "Pedophile" is not in the Bible. Does that mean that none of those things existed, just because they were not mentioned?

    The word "Trinity" is simply a word people use when describing the Three Persons in Unity as One God.
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    The Bible shows that The Apostles and Disciples Worshiped Jesus Christ in the Same Way they Worshiped The Father:

    Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He [The Father] brings in the Firstborn [Jesus] into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."

    Revelation 5:5-14: But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome, to open the scroll and its seven seals." And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as if slain, having Seven Horns and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Then He came and took out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne. And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls being filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; because You were slain, and You redeemed us to God by Your Blood, out of every tribe and language and people and nation; and have made them kings and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth." Then I looked, and I heard as it were the voice of many angels around the throne, and the living beings, and the elders. And the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and a thousand thousands, saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive the power and the wealth and wisdom and strength, and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in Heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power to Him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever. Amen!" -and the four living beings said "Amen!" And the elders fell down and worshipped.

    Matthew 14:25-33: In the fourth watch of the night, Jesus came to them, walking on the sea. When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It's a ghost!" and they cried out for fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying "Cheer up! I AM! Don't be afraid." Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the waters." He said, "Come!" Peter stepped down from the boat, and walked on the waters to come to Jesus. But when he saw that the wind was strong, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!" Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand, took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?" When they got up into the boat, the wind ceased. Those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "You are truly the Son of God!"

    Matthew 28:7-9: Go quickly and tell His disciples, 'He has risen from the dead, and behold, He goes before you into Galilee; there you will see Him.' Behold, I have told you." They departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. As they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" They came and took hold of His feet, and worshiped Him.

    Luke 24:50-53: He [Jesus] led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands, and blessed them. It happened, while He blessed them, that He withdrew from them, and was carried up into Heaven. They worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the Temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

    John 9:35-38: Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and it is He who speaks with you." He said, "Lord, I believe!" and he worshiped Him.

    Psalm 2:12: Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him.

    Joshua 5:13-15: It happened, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a Man over against him with His sword drawn in His hand: and Joshua went to Him, and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our adversaries? He said, No; but as the Commander of the Army of Yahweh I now come. Joshua fell on his face to the Earth, and did worship, and said to Him, What does my Lord say to His servant? The Commander of Yahweh's Army said to Joshua, Put off your shoe from off your foot; for the place on which you stand is Holy. Joshua did so.

    Exodus 3:2-15: The Messenger of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Moses said, I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. When Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses! Moses!" He said, "Here I am." He said, "Don't come close. Take off your sandals from off your feet, for the place you are standing on is Holy Ground." Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God. Yahweh said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey; to the place of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Now, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me. Moreover I have seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. Come now therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh, that you may bring forth My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt." Moses said to God, "Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?" He said, "Certainly I will be with you. This will be the token to you, that I have sent you: when you have brought forth the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain." Moses said to God, "Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you;' and they ask me, 'What is His Name?' What should I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and He said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: "I AM has sent me to you." God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'YAHWEH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My Name forever, and this is My Memorial to all generations.
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    The Bible shows that The Apostles and Disciples Prayed TO Jesus Christ as God:

    2nd Corinthians 12:8-10: Concerning this thing, I begged the Lord three times that it might depart from me. He has said to me, "My grace [unearned favor and kindness] is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me. Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong.

    Acts 7:59-60: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them!" When he had said this, he fell asleep [in death].

    1st John 5:11-15: The Testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life. He who doesn't have God's Son doesn't have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the Name of the Son of God. This is the boldness which we have toward Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He listens to us. And if we know that He listens to us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of Him.

    1st Timothy 1:12: And I thank Him who enabled me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because He counted me faithful, appointing me to service;

    1st Corinthians 1:2: to the congregation of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints [holy ones], with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours

    Romans 10:9-13: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him. For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."

    Revelation 22:20-21: He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amen! Yes, come, Lord Jesus. The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints [holy ones]. Amen.

    1st Corinthians 16:21-23: This greeting is by me, Paul, with my own hand. If any man doesn't love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. Come, Lord! The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

    2nd Thessalonians 3:16-18: Now may the Lord of peace Himself give you peace at all times in all ways. The Lord be with you all. The greeting of me, Paul, with my own hand, which is the sign in every letter: this is how I write. The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    2nd Corinthians 13:14: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen.

    Romans 1:7: to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints [holy ones]: Grace [unearned favor and kindness] to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Romans 16:20:...The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

    Romans 16:24: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all! Amen.

    Galatians 6:18: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

    Philippians 4:23: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    1st Thessalonians 1:1: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, to the Congregation of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [unearned favor and kindness] to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1st Thessalonians 5:28: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

    Philemon 1:25: The grace [unearned favor and kindness] of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

    Acts 1:21-26: "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us in every time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." And they nominated two: Joseph who is called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, Knower of all hearts, show whom You have chosen of these two" "to receive the portion in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." And they cast their lots. And the lot fell on Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven Apostles.
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    Luke 2:10-11: The angel said to them, "Don't be afraid, for behold, I bring you Good News of great joy which will be to all the people. For there is born to you, this day, in the City of David, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    Jesus was born as The Lord and The Christ. How could someone be The Lord when He is born, unless He is the Omnipresent God?
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    John 14:9: Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He that has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

    John 12:45: And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

    Those words would have been blasphemy for anyone who is not equal to The Father.

    Can you imagine me going around and telling people "If you have seen me, you have seen The Father!" People would either think I was crazy or I was blaspheming.
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    John 5:22-23: For the Father judges no one, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    Jesus said that everyone should honor The Son just like they honor The Father. Thus, Jesus declared that He was equal to The Father. And in fulfillment of those words, in Revelation Chapter 5, every human and every angel worships, praises, and honors The Son equally with The Father:

    Revelation 5:5-14: But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome, to open the scroll and its seven seals." And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as if slain, having Seven Horns and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Then He came and took out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne. And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls being filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; because You were slain, and You redeemed us to God by Your Blood, out of every tribe and language and people and nation; and have made them kings and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth." Then I looked, and I heard as it were the voice of many angels around the throne, and the living beings, and the elders. And the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and a thousand thousands, saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive the power and the wealth and wisdom and strength, and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in Heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power to Him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever. Amen!" -and the four living beings said "Amen!" And the elders fell down and worshipped.
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    Matthew 11:27: All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father, nor does anyone fully know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    No human, no matter how perfect, could fully know everything about The Father, unless he is God.
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    John 3:35: The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.

    John 13:3: Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,

    John 16:15: All things which the Father has are Mine....

    John 17:10: And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been glorified in them.

    The Father has given everything that He has to The Son. Everything that The Father has, The Son also has. Those statements would also have been blasphemy for someone who is not equal to The Father.
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    John 3:13: And no one has gone up into Heaven except He who came down out of Heaven, the Son of Man, who is in Heaven.

    Matthew 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I am there in their midst."

    Matthew 28:20: teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and look, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

    John 14:18-23: I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you. "Yet a little while and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He that has My Commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, and what has happened that You are about to manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and we will make Our home with him.

    Acts 18:9-10: Now the Lord spoke to Paul by a vision in the night, "Fear not, but speak, and do not keep silent; for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you; for I have many people in this city."

    Those Verses show that Jesus is Omnipresent [in more places than one at the same time].
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    John 16:30: Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God."

    Jesus Christ's Divine Nature knew all things while on Earth [Omniscient].

    However, since Jesus was 100% Man and 100% God while on Earth, His Human Nature still learned things, and His Human Nature did not know all things, which is why you see the following Verses:

    Luke 2:52: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

    Mark 13:32: "But concerning that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.

    Hebrews 5:7-9: who, in the days of His Flesh, when He had offered up both prayers and supplications, with strong crying and tears to the One who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His fear of God, though He was a Son, He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the Author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

    1 Timothy 3:16 is true: It truly is a "mystery" how Jesus was 100% God and 100% Human.
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    The Bible says that only God Almighty can read human minds and hearts:

    1 Kings 8:39: then hear in Heaven Your dwelling-place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to all his ways, whose heart You know. For You [Yahweh], You only, know the hearts of all the sons of Adam.

    1 Chronicles 28:9: ... Yahweh searches all hearts and understands all the imaginations of the thoughts. ...

    Jeremiah 17:10: "I Yahweh search the heart, I try the reins, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."

    The Bible says that Jesus can read human minds and hearts:

    Revelation 2:23: ... all the Churches shall know that I [Jesus] am He who searches minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

    John 2:24-25: But Jesus did not trust Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.

    Luke 5:22: But when Jesus perceived their reasonings, He answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?

    Matthew 9:4: But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?

    Matthew 12:25: But Jesus, knowing their thoughts ...

    Mark 2:8: And immediately, when Jesus recognized in His spirit that they were reasoning thus among themselves, He said to them, "Why are you reasoning these things in your hearts?

    Luke 6:8: But He knew their thoughts ...

    John 1:47-51: Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said about him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!" Nathanael said to Him, "From where do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, while you were under the fig tree, I saw you." Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!" Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these." And He said to him, "Most assuredly I say to you, from now on you shall see Heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."
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    Only God can forgive sins. Jesus forgives sins:

    Mark 2:5-11: And Jesus, seeing their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Child, your sins have been forgiven you."(Mark 2:6) And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who is able to forgive sins except God alone?" And immediately, when Jesus recognized in His spirit that they were reasoning thus among themselves, He said to them, "Why are you reasoning these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins have been forgiven,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on the earth to forgive sins"--He said to the paralytic, "I say to you, arise, and take up your pallet, and go to your house."
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    Jesus Christ is The Lord of Glory:

    1 Corinthians 2:8: which none of the rulers of this age knew (for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).

    Psalms 24:7-10: Lift up your heads, O gates; and be lifted up, O everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh strong and mighty, Yahweh mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, O gates; even lift up, O everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh of Armies, He is the King of glory. Selah.

    John 3:31: He who comes from above is above all; he who is from the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from Heaven is above all.

    1 Corinthians 15:47: The first man was from earth, made of dust; the Second Man is the Lord from Heaven.

    Matthew 12:8: For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

    Isaiah 42:8: I am Yahweh; that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 48:11: ... And I [Yahweh] will not give My glory to another.

    John 17:5: And now, O Father, glorify Me alongside Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    John 1:14: And the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 2:11: This beginning of the signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.

    Luke 9:26-29: For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels. But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will by no means taste death until they see the Kingdom of God." Now it came to pass, about eight days after these words, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and glistening.

    Isaiah 6:1-5: In the year that King Uzziah died I then saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and His skirt filled the Temple. Above it stood the seraphs; each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another, and said, Holy, Holy, Holy, is Yahweh of Hosts; the whole earth full of His glory. And the doorposts moved at the voice of the one who cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then I said, Woe is me! For I am undone; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of Hosts.

    John 12:41: These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke about Him.

    The Gospel of John says that Isaiah 6:1-5 was talking about Jesus!
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    Jesus Christ Resurrected Himself:

    John 2:18-22: Therefore the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this Temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking about the Temple of His Body. Therefore, when He was raised up from among the dead, His disciples remembered that He spoke this thing, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

    John 10:17-18: Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My Life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This Command I have received from My Father."

    John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
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    Jesus Christ had His own Authority and Power over Satan and the demons while on Earth:

    Luke 4:32-36: And they were astonished at His teaching, because His word was with authority. Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Ah! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!" But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silenced, and come out from him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in their midst, it came out from him, and did not hurt him. And amazement came upon all, and they spoke among themselves, saying, "What is this word! For with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits, and they come out."

    Luke 10:17-19: Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your Name." And He said to them, "I saw Satan having fallen like lightning out of Heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

    Mark 1:23-27: Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit, and he cried out, saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!" But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be muzzled, and come out of him!" And when the unclean spirit threw him into a convulsion, and crying out with a loud voice, came out from him. Then they were all amazed, so that they were disputing among themselves, saying, "What is this? What new doctrine is this, that He commands even the unclean spirits with authority, and they obey Him?"

    Matthew 8:29-32: And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" Now there was far off from them a herd of many swine feeding. So the demons implored Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go off into the herd of swine." And He said to them, "Go." So they came out, and went off into the herd of swine. And behold, the whole herd of swine rushed violently down the steep bank into the sea, and died in the waters.

    Matthew 9:32-33: And as they were going out, behold, they brought to Him a mute man, being demon-possessed. And when the demon was cast out, the mute spoke. And the crowds marveled, saying, "It was never seen like this in Israel!"
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    Jesus Christ had His own Authority and Power over the forces of nature:

    Matthew 8:24-27: And behold, a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered by waves; but He was sleeping. Then the disciples came and awoke Him, saying, "Lord, save us! We are perishing!" But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?" Then having risen, He rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. So the men marveled, saying, "What kind of Man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"

    Mark 4:37-41: And there was a severe windstorm, and the waves dashed up into the boat, so that it was already filling up. But He was in the stern, sleeping upon the cushion. And they awakened Him and said to Him, "Teacher! Does it not matter to You that we are perishing?" And having awakened He rebuked the wind, and He said to the sea, "Be quiet, be muzzled!" And the wind abated and there was a great calm. But He said to them, "Why are you so fearful? How is it that you do not have faith?" And they feared exceedingly, and were saying to one another, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!"

    Mark 6:47-51: Now when it was evening, the boat was in the middle of the sea; and He was alone on the land. Then He saw them straining at rowing, for the wind was against them. Now about the fourth watch of the night He came to them walking on the sea, and He wanted to pass by them. And seeing Him walking on the sea, they supposed Him to be a spirit, and they cried out; for they all saw Him and were troubled. But immediately He spoke with them, and said to them, "Have courage! I AM; do not be afraid." Then He went up with them into the boat and the wind ceased. And they were greatly astounded among themselves beyond measure, and were marveling.
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    Jesus Christ declared that He was God:

    Exodus 3:14-15: And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "So you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' " And God said to Moses again, "You shall say this to the sons of Israel, 'YAHWEH the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My Name forever, and this is My Memorial from generation to generation."

    Matthew 14:27: But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Have courage! I AM; do not fear." (Verse 33:) Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."

    Mark 6:49-50: And seeing Him walking on the sea, they supposed Him to be a spirit, and they cried out; for they all saw Him and were troubled. But immediately He spoke with them, and said to them, "Have courage! I AM; do not be afraid."

    John 6:19-20: Therefore having rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat; and they were frightened. But He said to them, I AM; do not fear."

    John 8:24-25: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." Then they said to Him, "Who are You?" And Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. (Verse 28:) Therefore Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and from Myself I do nothing; but just as My Father taught Me, these things I speak. (Verse 53:) "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? Also the prophets died. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?" (Verses 56-59:) Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day, and he saw it and he was glad." Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, having gone through their midst, and so passed by.

    John 13:19: From now on I tell you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe that I AM.

    John 18:3-8: Then Judas, having taken the detachment of soldiers, and attendants from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things coming upon Him, went out and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." Jesus said to them, "I AM." And Judas, the one betraying Him, was standing with them. Therefore when He said to them, "I AM," they stepped back and fell to the ground. Then He asked them again, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." Jesus answered, "I have told you that I AM! Therefore if you seek Me, allow these men to go,"

    Luke 18:18-19: Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, that is, God.

    John 10:11: I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His Life for the sheep. (Verse 14:) I am the Good Shepherd; and I know My own, and I am known by My own.

    Matthew 22:41-46: And when the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "David's." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet" '? "If David therefore calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him any longer.

    Mark 12:35-37: Then Jesus answered and said, as He was teaching in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." ' "Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord', and how is He his Son?" And the large crowd was hearing Him gladly.

    Luke 20:35-44: But those who have been counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Now even Moses revealed that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all are alive to Him." Then some of the scribes answered and said, "Teacher, You have spoken well." But after that they dared not question Him anymore. And He said to them, "How do they say that the Christ is the Son of David? Even David himself said in the Book of Psalms, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." ' "Therefore David calls Him 'Lord'; how is He then his Son?"

    John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He that believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

    John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    Matthew 26:63-65: But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I adjure You by the Living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "You said it. Nevertheless, I say to you, from now on, you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of Heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

    John 6:35: And Jesus said to them, "I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (Verses 47-48:) Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me has eternal life. I am the Bread of Life. (Verse 51:) I am the Living Bread which came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever; and the Bread that I shall give is My Flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
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    Jesus Christ has the same Unchangeable Nature as The Father:

    Malachi 3:6: For I am Yahweh, I do not change....

    Hebrews 1:12: ... You are the same, and Your years will not fail."

    Hebrews 13:8: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
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    Also, the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) taught that The Messiah was God:

    Isaiah 9:6: For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the Government shall be upon His shoulder, and His Name shall be called The Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Father of Eternity, The Prince of Peace.

    The very next Chapter of Isaiah shows who "The Mighty God" is -- Yahweh:

    Isaiah 10:20-21: And it shall be in that day, the remnant of Israel, and those who have escaped from the house of Jacob, shall never again lean on him who struck them; but truly lean on Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel. The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.

    Micah 5:2: And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you being least among the thousands of Judah, out of you He shall come forth to Me, to become Ruler in Israel, He whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.

    Jeremiah 23:5-6: Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will raise to David a Righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and shall do judgment and justice in the earth. In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely. And this is His Name by which He shall be called, YAHWEH, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Malachi 3:1: "Behold, I [Yahweh] will send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And Yahweh, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple, even the Messenger of the Covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He comes, says Yahweh of Hosts."

    Isaiah 40:3-5: "The voice of him who cries in the wilderness, Prepare the way of Yahweh, make straight a highway in the desert for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked places shall be made level, and the rough places smooth; and the glory of Yahweh shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken."

    That Prophecy about John the Baptist preparing the way for Yahweh, and Yahweh being revealed on Earth, was fulfilled in the following Verses when Jesus started His Ministry:

    Matthew 3:3: For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "A voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD; make His paths straight.' "

    Luke 1:76: "And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; for you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,

    Mark 1:1-3: THE BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD. As it is written in the Prophets: "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will prepare Your way before You." "A voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make His paths straight.' "

    Mark 1:7-11: And he was preaching, saying, "There comes One after me who is stronger than me, of whom I am not worthy to stoop down and to loose the strap of His sandal. I baptized you in water, but He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit." It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the Heavens parting and the Spirit coming down upon Him like a Dove. Then a voice came from the Heavens, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
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    Now, let's focus on The Holy Spirit:

    1 Corinthians 12:4-6: Now there are varieties of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are varieties of activities, but the same God works all in all. (Verse 11:) But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

    Those Verses show that there are Three Distinct Persons of God -- The Spirit [The Holy Spirit], The Lord [Jesus Christ, The Son], and God [The Father].
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    Ephesians 4:4-6: There is... one Spirit... one Lord... one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. (Verse 30:) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    Those Verses show that there are Three Distinct Persons of God -- The Spirit [The Holy Spirit], The Lord [Jesus Christ, The Son], and God [The Father].
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    Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

    Those Verses show that there are Three Distinct Persons of God -- The Holy Spirit, The Son, and The Father.

    The Watchtower Society interprets Matthew 28:19 as the following:

    "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father [Jehovah the Almighty] and of the Son [the inferior created angel Michael] and of the holy spirit [God's impersonal active force]"
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    2 Corinthians 13:14: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

    That Verse shows that there are Three Distinct Persons of God -- The Lord Jesus Christ, God The Father, and The Holy Spirit, whom the Apostle Paul prayed to and asked Them to give grace, love, and fellowship to the brothers.
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    Romans 15:16: that I should be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the Gospel of God as a priest, so that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Verse 30:) Now I beg you, brothers, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in prayers to God on my behalf,

    Twice in Romans Chapter 13, the Apostle Paul shows that there are Three Distinct Persons of God.
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    John 14:16-17: And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

    Jesus said that He would ask the Father, and the Father would send ANOTHER Helper [Counselor; Comforter], the Spirit of Truth.

    John 14:26: But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My Name, He will teach you all things, and will remind you of all things which I said to you.

    The Spirit of Truth is The Holy Spirit, who is the Third Person of God.

    John 15:26: "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.

    That Verse makes it very clear that The Spirit is a Distinct Person from the Father and the Son.

    John 16:7-15: Nevertheless I speak the truth to you. It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I am going to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will announce to you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take from what is Mine and He will announce it to you. All things which the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He takes from what is Mine and will announce it to you.

    Let's have a review of John Chapters 14, 15, and 16, about who the Helper, the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit is:

    * The Holy Spirit is ANOTHER Helper distinct from the Father and the Son.
    * The Father sends the Holy Spirit in Jesus' Name.
    * Jesus sends the Holy Spirit.
    * The Holy Spirit will remind people of what Jesus said.
    * The Holy Spirit will testify about Jesus.
    * The Holy Spirit will glorify Jesus.
    * The Holy Spirit does not speak of His own authority, but whatever He hears He speaks.
    * Jesus has received all things from The Father, so also The Holy Spirit will take all things from Jesus and announce them to Christians.
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    John 1:32-34: And John [the Baptist] testified, saying, "I have beheld the Spirit coming down from Heaven like a Dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending and abiding on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' "And I have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God."

    Matthew 3:16-17: And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the Heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a Dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the Heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."

    Those Verses show a distinction between The Father, The Son, and The Spirit.
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    Acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Verse 17:) "And it shall be in the last days", says God, "that I will pour from My Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;" (Verse 32:) "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we all are witnesses." (Verse 33:) "Therefore having being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. (Verse 38:) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Those Verses show the distinction between The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
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    Acts 5:31-32: Him God has exalted to His right hand as Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses of these words, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

    The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit are shown once again to be Three Distinct Persons.
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    Acts 10:38: Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all those who were oppressed by the Devil, because God was with Him.

    The Father anointed The Son with The Holy Spirit -- Three Distinct Persons of God.
    _____________________________

    Acts 4:23-25: And being released, they came to their own, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one mind and said: "Lord, You are God, who made Heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, and the people conspired vain things?

    Acts 1:16: Men, brothers; it was necessary for this Scripture to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;

    One Scripture said God spoke by the mouth of David, and another Scripture said the Holy Spirit spoke by the mouth of David, therefore, the Holy Spirit is God.
    ______________________________

    Acts 5:3-4: But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, and for you to keep back for yourself from the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And after it was sold, was it not in your control? Why have you purposed this thing in your heart? You did not lie to men but to God."

    Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, who is God.
    ______________________________

    Acts 15:28: For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to put on you no greater burden except for these necessary things

    The Holy Spirit is definitely a Person.
    _____________________________

    Romans 8:26-27: Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings. But He that searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.

    The Holy Spirit intercedes for us to the Father.
    _____________________________

    Romans 8:11: But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit indwelling in you. (Verse 16:) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

    The Father and The Son and The Spirit -- Three Distinct Persons.
    _____________________________

    2 Corinthians 1:21-22: Now He who establishes us together with you in Christ and who has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us, and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

    The Father and The Son and The Spirit are Three Distinct Persons of God.
    _____________________________

    Ephesians 2:18-22: Because through Him [Jesus] we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a Holy Temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

    Through The Son, we have access by one Spirit to The Father.
    _____________________________

    2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: But we are obligated to give thanks to God always for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you through our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Father and The Son and The Spirit are Three Distinct Persons of God.
    _____________________________

    Titus 3:4-7: But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we did, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    The Father and The Son and The Spirit are Three Distinct Persons of God.
    _____________________________

    Hebrews 9:14: by how much more shall the Blood of Christ, who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, will cleanse your conscience from dead works in order that we might serve the Living God?

    The Son offered Himself through The Spirit to The Father.
    _____________________________

    1 Peter 1:2: according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

    The Father and The Son and The Spirit are Three Distinct Persons of God.
    _____________________________

    1 Peter 3:18: For Christ also suffered once to atone for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit,

    Jesus was made alive by the Spirit.
    _____________________________

    Revelation 1:4-5: John, to the seven Churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits which are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, the Firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and who washed us from our sins in His own Blood,

    In Revelation 1:4-5, John is praying and making a request to The Father [Him who is, who was, and who is coming], and The Son [Jesus Christ], but in between those Two, John is also praying to "The Seven Spirits". Now, the Seven Spirits cannot be angels, because the Bible forbids people from worshiping or praying to angels. Also, can you imagine the Apostle John praying to seven created angels BEFORE He mentions Jesus Christ?

    I think it is pretty clear that "The Seven Spirits" is the Seven-Fold Spirit -- The Holy Spirit [the number 7 in the Bible quite often refers to absoluteness, completeness, and infiniteness; for instance, when Jesus said that people should forgive 77 times, that was not literally 77 times, it meant that we should forgive an unlimited number of times).
    ______________________________

    2 Thessalonians 3:5: Now may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the patience of Christ.

    There appears to me to be Three Persons in 2 Thessalonians 3:5: The Lord, God, and Christ. I personally believe that "The Lord" in this Verse is The Holy Spirit, because of the way the Verse is worded.

    If "The Lord" in that Verse is The Father, I think it would have been worded like this:

    "Now may the Lord direct your hearts into His love and into the patience of Christ."

    If "The Lord" in that Verse is Jesus, I think it would have been worded like this:

    "Now may the Lord direct your hearts into His patience, and into the love of God."
    ______________________________

    Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O, Israel. Yahweh our God is One Yahweh.

    Mark 12:29: Jesus answered him, "The first of all the Commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is One LORD.

    James 2:19: You believe God is One. You do well. Even the demons believe--and they shudder!

    Genesis 2:24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

    1 John 5:7: For there are Three who bear witness in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these Three are One.

    Now, I am sure that immediately when some people see that I posted 1 John 5:7, they will probably say "Aha -- this 'UnDisfellowshipped' person either is ignorant or he is a deceiver, because I know that 1 John 5:7 was not part of the original Scriptures, and only the King James Version includes it!"

    However, by doing a little bit of research, I have discovered some information that supports this Verse as being part of the original Scriptures, and I will post these facts here:

    1 John 5:7 is supported by Cyprian (200-258 A.D.) who wrote: "The Lord says, ‘I and the Father are one,‘ and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ‘and these three are one.‘" (The Treatises of Cyprian I:1:6; 250 A.D.).

    If I am not mistaken, I believe that 250 A.D. is earlier than any of the Manuscripts that have been discovered for 1 John 5:7.

    So, if 1 John 5:7 is not part of the original Scriptures, then it was added very, very early, and was somehow accepted as being true by the Church Fathers very, very early.

    Also, here is a very good Web Page I found discussing 1 John 5:7:

    http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/1John5-7.html

    And These Three Are One

    1 John 5:7 is the clearest verse in the Bible regarding the Holy Trinity, yet it is missing in many modern versions like the NIV, NASB, RSV, NRSV and Jehovah witness versions.

    Those who say this verse is not part of Holy Scripture will often say it is not found in the majority of Greek manuscripts and for this reason it should not be included in the Bible.

    It is true that the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" are not found in the majority of remaining Greek manuscripts. However there is very much and weighty evidence for its inclusion.

    Those who argue that it is not in the majority of texts are being totally inconsistent, to say the least, when they bring up this argument. Most of the people like James White and Daniel B. Wallace who use this majority argument, do not care one bit for the majority of texts and what they might read. They themselves follow the UBS text of Westcott and Hort which itself departs from the majority readings in literally thousands of places.

    It should be noted too that Michael Maynard significantly points out that there are only 5 remaining Greek manuscripts that even contain the epistle of 1 John in whole or in part that date from the 7th century or before. That is a whole lot of time to have past by with only 5 partial Greek witnesses that remain today.

    Sure, there are a few minority readings in the King James Bible, but for every one in the KJB there are a hundred minority readings found in the NASB, NIV, RSV, and that is no exaggeration.

    Another very common objection to 1 John 5:7 is the allegation that Erasmus said he would include the verse if he found a Greek manuscript that contained it. Then almost made to order, hot off the presses, one appeared.

    Bruce Metzger who was partly responsible for propagating this urban myth at least had the integrity to retract this false accusation in the 3rd edition of his book. Here is the exact quote from Mr. Metzger himself.

    "What is said on p. 101 above about Erasmus' promise to include the Comma Johanneum if one Greek manuscript were found that contained it, and his subsequent suspicion that MS 61 was written expressly to force him to do so, needs to be corrected in the light of the research of H. J. DeJong, a specialist in Erasmian studies who finds no explicit evidence that supports this frequently made assertion." Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of The New Testament, 3rd Edition, p 291 fn 2.

    What then is the evidence for 1 John 5:7? It is found in several Greek texts; it is quoted by several church fathers and is found in many ancient versions of the Bible.

    The Greek texts include 629 (fourteenth century), 61 (sixteenth century), 918 (sixteenth century), 2473 (seventeenth century), and 2318 (eighteenth century). It is also in the margins of 221 (tenth century), 635 (eleventh century), 88 (twelveth century), 429 (fourteenth century), and 636 (fifteenth century).

    It is also important to note that most of the Greek copies that have existed throughout history are no longer with us today. Several well known Christians mention Greek texts that contained 1 John 5:7 that existed in their days centuries ago. Among these are Theodore Beza, John Calvin and Stephanus. Beza remarks that the reading of 1 John 5:7 is found in many of their manuscripts, Calvin likewise says it is found in "the most approved copies" and Stephanus, who in 1550 printed the Greek text that bears his name, mentioned that of the 16 copies he had access to, 7 of them contained 1 John 5:7.

    When Cardinal Ximenes planned to print his Polyglot in 1502 he included 1 John 5:7-8. He stated that he had taken care to secure a number of Greek manuscripts; and he described some of these as very "ancient codices" sent to Spain from Rome. Why haven't the manuscript detectives given us a complete list of these "ancient codices"? They must have contained 1 John 5:7. Ximenes printed the verse.

    A Trail of Evidence

    We find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:

    200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas

    250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians. Note that Cyprian is quoting and says "it is written, And the three are One." He lived from 180 to 250 A.D. and the scriptures he had at that time contained the verse in question. This is at least 100 years before anything we have today in the Greek copies. If it wasn't part of Holy Scripture, then where did he get it?

    350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]

    350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

    350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione

    380 AD Priscillian in Liber Apologeticus quotes "and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."

    398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism

    415 AD Council of Carthage. The contested verse (1 John 5:7) is quoted at the Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith for the "orthodox." It reads with the King James. How did 350 prelates in 415 A.D. take a verse to be orthodox that wasn't in the Bible? It had to exist there from the beginning. It was quoted as "Pater, VERBUM, et Spiritus Sanctus".

    450-530 AD. Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:

    A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"

    B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]

    C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

    500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]

    527 AD Fulgentius in Contra Arianos stated: "Tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in caelo. Pater, Verbum et Spiritus, et tres unum sunt."

    550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]

    636 AD Isidor of Seville quotes the verse as it stands in the KJB.

    750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it

    800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]

    157-1400 AD. Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse.

    Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc. This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. Theodore Beza, John Wesley and Johnathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today.

    Many critics of this passage like to say that 1 John 5:7 occurs in no ancient language version except the Latin. However the newest UBS critical text has now admitted that it is found in some Armenian manuscripts.

    The first printed edition of the Armenian Bible was published in 1666 by Bishop Uscan. It contains 1 John 5:7. Also Giles Guthier, using two Syriac manuscripts published an edition at Hamburg in 1664. This edition places the passage in the text. And the first printed Georgian Bible, published at Moscow in 1743 contains 1 John 5:7.

    Dr. Schrivener mentions a "few recent" Slavonic manuscripts as having the passage.(Jack Moorman, "When the KJV departs from the majority text" 2nd. edition.)

    Internal Evidence

    Dr. Thomas Holland, who recently wrote "Crowned with Glory", a very good book which defends the King James Bible, states: "The strongest evidence, however, is found in the Greek text itself. Looking at 1 John 5:8, there are three nouns which, in Greek, stand in the neuter (Spirit, water, and blood). However, they are followed by a participle that is masculine. The Greek phrase here is oi marturountes (who bare witness). Those who know the Greek language understand this to be poor grammar if left to stand on its own. Even more noticeably, verse six has the same participle but stands in the neuter (Gk.: to marturoun). Why are three neuter nouns supported with a masculine participle? The answer is found if we include verse seven. There we have two masculine nouns (Father and Son) followed by a neuter noun (Spirit). The verse also has the Greek masculine participle oi marturountes. With this clause introducing verse eight, it is very proper for the participle in verse eight to be masculine, because of the masculine nouns in verse seven. But if verse seven were not there it would become improper Greek grammar."

    Michael Maynard, M.L.S. in his 382 page book "A History of the Debate over 1 John 5:7-8" quotes from Gregory of Nazianzus (390 AD) who remarks concerning this verse in his Theological Orations: . . . "he has not been consistent in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down. For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourselves disclaim in the case of Deity?"

    Mr. Maynard concludes: "Thus Gregory of Nazianzus objected to the omission of 1 John 5:7."

    It is clear that Gregory recognized the inconsistency with Greek grammar if all we have are verses six and eight without verse seven.

    Other scholars have recognized the same thing. This was the argument of Robert Dabney of Union Theological Seminary in his book, “The Doctrinal Various Readings of the New Testament Greek” (1891).

    Bishop Middleton in his book, “Doctrine of the Greek Article,” argues that verse seven must be a part of the text according to the Greek structure of the passage.

    Even in the famous commentary by Matthew Henry, there is a note stating that we must have verse seven if we are to have proper Greek in verse eight.

    Dr. Edward F. Hills argues the same grammatical points in defending the legitimacy of 1 John 5:7 in his book "The King James Version Defended" on pages 211-212.

    Dr. Gaussen in his famous book "The Inspiration of the Holy Scriptures" uses the same grammatical argument and concludes: "Remove it, and the grammar becomes incoherent."

    There is another argument based on internal evidence that anyone can clearly see just by reading the Holy Bible in English. This has to do with the spiritual significance of numbers. We all know how significant the number 7 is, representing the spiritual perfections of the Godhead.

    There are many highly significant words or titles that are found either 7 times or in combinations of 7 only in the King James Bible. Words like Son of man (49x4) Son of God (49 or 7x7 in the New Testament), Most High (49), Jesus Christ (196 or 49x4), Word of God (49), My Beloved Son (7 times), It is written (63 or 7x9 in N.T.), Firstborn (7), Kingdom of God (70), Holy Spirit (7 in the KJB), Church (77), Worshippers (7) and only when 1 John 5:7 is included does the title referring to Jesus Christ as the Word occur 7 times.

    It is found in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."

    1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

    1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

    Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

    If you are looking to scholars to settle the issue for you, there will never be any certainty at all. Those who criticize the King James Bible as being just another fallible book, riddled with errors, have nothing sure and certain to give you in its place. They set themselves up as the final authority but they constantly differ among themselves. It is like playing "scholar poker". "Well, my scholars can beat your scholars." No, they can't. I'll see your scholars and raise you two more."

    They may say that Dr. So and So went to Dallas Theological Whatever and he doesn't believe 1 John 5:7 should be in the bible. Well, on the other hand, there are many learned men with just as much knowledge who absolutely believe 1 John 5:7 belongs in the Holy Bible.

    Here is just a partial list of those who contended for the authenticity of this verse.

    Cyprian - 250 AD, Priscillian -385 AD, Jerome 420 AD, Fulgentius, Cassiodorus, Isidore of Seville, Jaqub of Edessa, Thomas Aquinas, John Wycliffe, Desiderus Erasmus, Lopez de Zuniga, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, Cipriano de Valera, John Owen, Francis Turretin, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Andrew Fuller, Thomas F. Middleton, Luis Gaussen, Frederick Nolan, Robert L. Dabney, Herman C. Hoskier, George Ricker Berry, Edward F. Hills, David Otis Fuller, Thomas Holland, Michael Maynard and Donald A. Waite.

    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is found in 10 remaining Greek manuscripts, at least 4 Old Latin manuscripts, is quoted or referred to by at least 8 church fathers, is in some ancient versions like the Syriac, Armenian and Slavic versions, in the Waldensian Bibles from 157 AD till the time of the Reformation, is in thousands of Vulgate Latin manuscripts, is in the Spanish Reina Valera used throughout the entire Spanish speaking world today, the Italian Diodati, the Russian, Portuguese, pre and post Lutheran German bibles, and all English versions till 1881.

    It is important to note too that the Greek Orthodox Church's New Testament contains 1 John 5:7 both in the ancient and in the Modern Greek versions.

    Either God has been faithful to preserve His pure words with nothing added or He has failed and the scholars of today who do not believe any Bible on this earth is the perfect word of God are right. You decide.

    Will Kinney

    _________________________________

    However, even without 1 John 5:7, the Trinity is definitely taught throughout the Bible, especially the New Testament.

    Below are some more Verses which show that, since the Word is God, He must be the True God, or He is a false god:

    Isaiah 45:21-22: Declare and bring near; yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

    Exodus 20:2: I am Yahweh your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

    Also, I would like to point out that the Jehovah's Witnesses [and some other Cults] make a big point of the fact that in John 1:1, where it says "the Word was God", there is no article [the word "The" in Greek; "Ho"] before the word God.

    However, there is also NO article before the word "God" in the Greek, in the following Scriptures either, but the Watchtower's New World Translation does not say "a god" in these Verses - why is that?:

    John 1:12 (NWT): However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name;

    Why doesn't the Watchtower translate that Verse like this:

    However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become a god’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name
    _______________________________________

    John 1:18 (NWT): No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

    Why doesn't the Watchtower translate that Verse like this:

    No man has seen a god at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
    _______________________________________

    Mark 15:39 (NWT): Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: "Certainly this man was God’s Son."

    Why doesn't the Watchtower translate that Verse like this:

    Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: "Certainly this man was a god’s Son."
    _______________________________________

    I would love to hear everyone's comments.

    If anyone wants to E-Mail me for any reason, my E-Mail Address is UnDisfellowshipped@yahoo.com

    I encourage everyone to ask any questions that you want to, and I encourage everyone to point out any mistakes I have made.

    I also welcome any and all attempts to refute the statements above -- please use the Bible when refuting any of my statements above.

    I want to make this very clear -- ALWAYS TEST EVERYTHING I SAY and make sure that it is in harmony with the Holy Scriptures. If it is not, then PLEASE let me know about it, and also DO NOT EVER believe what I say if it is not in harmony with the Bible.

    If there is anything that you want more information about that I posted, please let me know and I will be glad to help.

    May God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit bless everyone who takes the time to read this!

    Go to http://www.e-sword.net for COMPLETELY FREE BIBLE SOFTWARE!

    Or visit http://www.blueletterbible.org or http://www.crosswalk.com for Free Online Bibles!

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