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    Chariklo posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:57:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 851 of 2623
    Joined 5/9/2011

    Can anyone explain to me just how and why the JW's confidently believe that Jesus came and "inspected" all the other religions and found every one lacking and failing his expectations except the little group of Bible students who went on to become the JW's?

    This is the biggest gap between history, logic and common sense and WT belief, to me. More ludicrous than all the propehecies put together.

    I'd be really interested to know all the different strands of this. So many JW's proclaim it, and I've had elders etc describe it to me almost challengingly, as though they are fixing me with their eyes and daring me to disapgree with it.

    Back then, I was a total wimp, and kind of gulped and said weakly "Yes, I know."

    So, I can work out that Rutherford or someone invented this doctrine. But why and how do they all believe it?

    Alfred posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:07:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 924 of 954
    Joined 9/10/2010

    I think this thread might help answer your question...

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/217275/1/WT-Flip-Flops-on-Jesuse28099-Inspectione280a6-Was-it-in-1918-or-1919-Did-the-WT-PASS-or-FAIL

    Alfred

    transhuman68 posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:42:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 1479 of 2368
    Joined 3/30/2010

    LOL, or this thread:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/133349/1/How-does-1914-31-2-3d-1919

    It's just leftover doctrine from a time when Rutherford was a legend in his own mind.

    outsmartthesystem posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:15:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 496 of 1187
    Joined 5/19/2011

    The best i've heard from a witness is (after I pointed out how many doctrines were wrong when christ inspected....and that prophecies that would later fail were being spouted at that time)

    "that may be true but we know that Jehovah's organization is progressive (insert Prov 4:18). Evidently at the time of Christ's inspection....Jesus was only concerned that the bible students have THESE particular doctrinal points correct (insert immortality of the soul, trinity). The rest would be released progressively"

    M thetrueone posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:25:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 5942 of 5528
    Joined 9/18/2006

    Nothing more than self marketing for the WTS.

    Then again what major religious organization doesn't say its been specifically chosen by god.

    Its was an act to solidify the membership of the IBSA, an expression of purposed viability.

    Chariklo posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 23:06:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 862 of 2623
    Joined 5/9/2011

    Thanks a lot, everyone.

    You see, to me, the very idea of Jesus actually inspected everything is utterly ludicrous. Completely beyond all common sense.

    But it's late and words fail me right now.

    Thanks again though.

    irondork posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 23:58:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 283 of 1161
    Joined 11/3/2010

    tag

    M thetrueone posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:04:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 5945 of 5528
    Joined 9/18/2006

    I doubt Jesus would choose a group of malignly dumb and incompetent theologians, which made up the leaders of the Watchtower Publishing company,

    and still makes up the leaders of this organization today.

    Jesus isn't into commercial publishing, never was.

    diamondiiz posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:30:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 1312 of 1522
    Joined 3/15/2009

    Why? While most JWs don't really think of 1919 much and I doubt most even know the formula to get there, the date serves as something that reassures JWs that their leadership is special. They had to be chosen, otherwise their crazy shit just wouldn't make sense. How could someone put trust in a group of men if they weren't guided and directed by God?

    Since JWs are programmed to trust only wts, it's easy for them to buy into this idea especially since no other group of men on earth taught what Bible Students did regarding trinity, soul and hellfire. Right? Or should we say, so they think.

    I don't remember when this crap had began to be taught and in what form since there was no gb prior to the 70s and until '43 official doctrine was that Jesus returned in 1874. Also some scriptures are used to mean literal numbers and some as figurative, in other words wts pulled shit out of their ass and made it fit so the result was 1919. From the fall of 1914 they use the Rev11:3 to represent 1260 days or 3.5 years which takes them to early 1918 where they claim the 2 witnesses were killed. This supposed to represent Rutherford and the gang going off to prison and the next set of numbers from Rev 11:11 had to obviously be symbolic, meaning a short time. So after Rutherford got out of jail, this had to be the time when Jesus chose them. I think that's how this goes but I can't believe that I accepted this nonsense for so long, while really never thinking too deeply on this very thing.

    M jwfacts posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 01:53:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 6481 of 7830
    Joined 6/25/2005

    It's just leftover doctrine from a time when Rutherford was a legend in his own mind.

    I agree. Rutherford wanted to claim the power for himself, and so made the inspection during his reign, rather than under Russell, increasing his own prominence. It would have made far more sense to say that the inspection was under Russell.

    F AnnOMaly posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 19:44:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 2369 of 4158
    Joined 8/11/2003

    If I remember correctly, it was originally to do with parallels between Jesus' first advent and the second one. Very roughly:

    29 CE/1874 CE - Jesus' baptism and ministry starts/presence starts,

    33 CE/1878 CE - Jesus hailed as king riding into Jerusalem/Jesus' installation as king in the heavens; Jesus inspected Jerusalem's temple (threw out the extortioners)/Jesus inspected spiritual temple; also the "church of the Scribes and Pharisees" 1 was cast off/apostate, Babylonish Christendom was cast off. 2 Also resurrection of Jesus/first resurrection of the Christ class.

    Later in Ratherflawed's time, these parallels were transposed onto the 1914-1918/19 period and built upon.

    ---

    1 As at the end of his three-and-one-half year's ministry, Jesus wept over that church, gave them up and said: "Your house is left unto you desolate," so we believe that at the parallel point of time--the spring of 1878, the nominal gospel church was given up and their house left desolate. Until the harvest of their age, all outward Jews--"wheat and chaff" were spoken to and of as Israel but Jesus did a separating work--"His fan is in his hand" to winnow the chaff from among the wheat and when the work of separation is accomplished the wheat only is recognized. So here true and false grow side by side in the church and together they are nominally "The kingdom of Heaven"--"Let both grow together until the harvest"-- but in the harvest of this age "He will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend," &c. 'Matt. 13:30,41'. But since the spring of 1878 we believe that the nominal church is cast off and now only the wheat--"the little flock"--is to be considered the church and we believe this to be the date of the beginning of the fall of Babylon church, the parallel to the date of the fall of the church of the Scribes and Pharisees--hypocrites, who encompassed sea and land to make one proselyte." Their fall was gradual, so is Babylon's. - ZWT 1879, Nov., p. 2 [R46].

    2 'To our understanding, as already shown in the MILLENNIAL DAWN series, 1878 marked the date for our Lord's assumption of Kingly authority and his judgment upon Babylon the Great, characterizing her as "fallen," and calling for all the people of God to come out of her: and that it marked also the date for the faithful overcomers of the past to have a share in the first resurrection--to enter into the joys of their Lord, and hear his words, "Well done, good and faithful servants."' - ZWT 1901, Feb. 1, p. 60 [R2765].

    00DAD posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:26:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 2319 of 5183
    Joined 7/29/2011

    All that being said, it is informative to consider that current JW beliefs are essentially COMPLETELY different than what they were when supposedly "chosen" in 1918/1919.

    This brings up a logical dilemma:

    1. If Current Beliefs are correct, then what JWs believed in 1918/1919 was wrong. If what they believed then was wrong, then Jesus would have categorically rejected them as representing either him or True Worship; or,
    2. If JW beliefs in 1918/1919 were correct, then JW beliefs now are incorrect and should be rejected as apostate, false teachings.

    You don't even have to examine any specific doctrinal points to see the power of this line of reasoning: either way JWs are NOT the true religion, not then, not now, not ever.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    For clarification, there are essentially only two beliefs that have remained from Russell's time until now:

    1. Soul Sleep, taken from the Second Adventists, which has two sub-beliefs:

    • No Hell
    • No Immortality of the Soul

    2. Gentile Times ended in 1914 which came from:

    • an idea advanced by John Aquila Brown in 1823
    • expanded upon in the 1830's by a farmer named William Miller
    • later tweaked by Apollos Hale and Sylvester Bliss, whoever they were
    • exposed as false in 1840 by John Dowling, whoever he was
    • reworked by Second Adventists, such as Barbour after 1844
    • then finally take over by Charles Taze Russell as an end time prophecy, with the Gentile times expected to herald the conclusion of Armageddon, not the beginning of the Last Days.

    So practically EVERYTHING taught in Russell's time has been since discarded except two basic beliefs, one of which he got from another religion and the other conceived of and then twisted and mangled by a bunch of crackpots all vying for one-upsmanship to prove their personal understanding of the incontrovertible Word of God!

    Also, some would argue that 1914 shouldn't really be included on this list. What Russell and the early Bible Students believed about 1914 is completely different from what Witnesses believe today. They clearly and unequivocally taught that 1914 was when Armageddon was coming and that it would be THE END of things, not the "Beginning of the End." In fact, the only thing about 1914 that stayed the same was calling it "The End of the Gentile Times", but what that meant to Russell wouldn't even be recognized by a modern JW.

    Of the two beliefs, the evidence is clear that the second is false and the first is, from our perspective as living human beings, completely unverifiable either way. Also the idea of soul sleep is not unique to JWs so it alone would not have gotten them "chosen" in 1918/1919. The closer you look the uglier it gets.

    Nice. Must be holy spirit, excuse me: Holy Spirit!!! Definitely got the fingerprints of God all over this one!

    M thetrueone posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:44:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 5948 of 5528
    Joined 9/18/2006

    The application of relational logic and religious cults such as the JWS are not synonymous with one and another. Back in the early 1900's the IBSA and the WTS. run by Russell were just another fringe religious group framed by the present Adventist theology, which in reality was a great religious theology for commercial exploitation, in selling literature and drawing crowds to public talks. The commercial aspect of this religious organization was seen advantageous even when most of its predictions failed to evolve. It was still seen as a viable source of money and power for those who wanted to precede on in the way it had by the previous leader, namely C Russell. When Rutherford grasp hold of the publishing house the game was his play with, even though he too was a incompetent bible theologian.

    Chariklo posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:48:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 871 of 2623
    Joined 5/9/2011
    Later in Ratherflawed's time, these parallels were transposed onto the 1914-1918/19 period and built upon.

    Yes, built upon and fantasised around, but all that reasoning is exactly how it was explained to me. I think I'd have asked a better question is I'd asked "Just how do they actually believe all this?" because it is so clearly ridiculous. Well, to me at any rate.

    Yet the extraordinary thing to me is that they kept emphasising it, stressing it as a prime item of belief. And elder brought it up with me as recently as mid-February. And it was just one of the reasons I am no longer there!

    Interesting 00DAD, especially about the Gentile Times. That too is made a big thing of in the local congregation. Or so it seemed to me.

    All very strange.

    breakfast of champions posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:48:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 1453 of 3872
    Joined 5/30/2011

    To be honest, no one gives a rat's ass about 1919 or 1918 or whatever. It comes down to pure emotion: you offer everlasting life in paradise = me likey very much.

    LostGeneration posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 22:09:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 1311 of 3256
    Joined 11/24/2009

    Good point there BOC, that really is the bottom line isn't it? People either don't want to or can't accept death, thus they will do the 'mental gymnastics' routine to prove to themselves that "this life is temporary" and that a "real life" is "just around the corner"

    M thetrueone posted Thu, 19 Apr 2012 23:20:00 GMT(4/19/2012)

    Post 5949 of 5528
    Joined 9/18/2006

    The majority of JWS today know nothing about 1919 and what significance it holds for the JWS . Rightly since the IBSA was still in effect established at the hands of J Rutherford. Since Rutherford didn't take on the name of the JWS until 1931. JWS today barely know very much about 1914 and the GB doesn't want to bring that out for obvious reasons.

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