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    ziddina posted Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:14:00 GMT(4/8/2012)

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    Gayle, this might answer your question about the Adventists' beliefs regarding "Armageddon"...

    Check out this Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology

    Here's the opening paragraphs on that link:

    "The Seventh-day Adventist Church holds a unique system of eschatological (or end-times) beliefs. Adventist eschatology, which is based on a historicist interpretation of prophecy, is characterised principally by the premillennial Second Coming of Christ. Traditionally, the church has taught that the Second Coming will be preceded by a global crisis with the Sabbath as a central issue. At Jesus' return, the righteous will be taken to heaven for one thousand years. After the millennium the unsaved will be punished by annihilation while the saved will live on a recreated Earth for eternity.
    The foremost sources are the biblical books of Daniel and Revelation. Jesus' statements in Matthew 24 for instance, as well as many other Bible verses are also used. The classic Adventist commentary on the end-times was Uriah Smith's Daniel and the Revelation. The writings of Ellen G. White have also been highly influential, particularly the last part of her book The Great Controversy. "Prophecy seminars", developed since the mid-20th century, have been a key popular source. ..."

    In skimming the rest of the article, it does sound as if the 7th-Day Adventists have similar beliefs to the Jehovah's Witnesses - regarding "Armageddon", at least.....

    One must wonder at the huge differences in the way the two groups have reacted to such beliefs, though...

    ziddina posted Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:25:00 GMT(4/8/2012)

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    Well, the program has ended...

    It was interesting, but ran rather like an Adventist PR piece...

    Now I'm wondering about the DARK SIDE of 7th-Day Adventism...

    designs posted Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:35:00 GMT(4/8/2012)

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    The family joke was 'you'll eat eggs but not chicken'

    ziddina posted Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:03:00 GMT(4/8/2012)

    Post 8944 of 10450
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    Hah hah hah!!!

    Good one, Designs!!

    barry posted Mon, 09 Apr 2012 01:40:00 GMT(4/9/2012)

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPbkm_Q8RaA This video is a different perspective Adventists have of Apostates than the Watchtower.

    Barry

    ziddina posted Mon, 09 Apr 2012 20:32:00 GMT(4/9/2012)

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    Barry, thank you very much for posting that video!!!

    SUCH a difference - as you stated - from the way the Watchtower Corporation views questioners, dissenters and "apostates"...!!

    Zid

    M steve2 posted Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:56:00 GMT(4/9/2012)

    Post 4486 of 8595
    Joined 10/31/2004

    SDA churches are very prone to schisms. Locally, the original SDA church has split on at least three occasions in the last thirty years. Anyone who wants an insider's perpsective on this "softly softly" church could read "The White Lie" which spells out the shenanagins sorrounding Ms bossy-britches White and her early dogmatic influence on the group. There appear to be two factions within the SDA church: THose who want to be seen as Christians like all other Christians and those who insist on correct interpretation of Scripture. Expect ot be pummeled from here to kingdom come if you try to have a conversation with a doctrinally-committed SDA.

    Sure, SDAs might engage in more civilized discourse about their teachings, but the old-timers within the church are fiercely dogmatic about the "correct" interpretation of scripture as seen through the eyes of Ms White.

    M steve2 posted Tue, 10 Apr 2012 04:10:00 GMT(4/10/2012)

    Post 4487 of 8595
    Joined 10/31/2004

    I listened to the rightfully well-regarded Professor. In a nutshell, what the SDA church now struggles with is a "symptom" of the Advent of Christ not occurring (i.e., the end has not come and they're still waiting and waiting...). He's a little bit this, a little bit that, using instructive parables the way wineries use grapes. Enough already!

    The longer a group of people have to wait for an event, the more opportunity for a "settling down" effect in which variation comes into the teachings. The fact that SDAs as a rule are more tolerant of the variations within their midst does not disguise the fact that they talk to death their apologetics the same way the Watchtower talks to death its own apologetics. The professor has an undeniable gift of the gab and one hoped that he would ease up a bit and simply acknowledge that all the vast number of Christian groups - his included - are simply best guesses and not embodiments of "the truth". Alas, in his bland, garrulous way he personifies organized religion: The more you talk, the more you talk, the more you convince yourself..... and the more the lsitener realizes its all smoke and mirrors .....

    barry posted Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:04:00 GMT(4/10/2012)

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    G'day Steve,

    You are right about the historic Adventists and their reliance on the teachings of Ellen White but I would like to propose tha there are in fact four main groups within the church not including the sub- groups.

    The Historic Adventists beleive much of what the church taught from its beginning in the 1860s to the the 1950s. This group teaches that Christ had a sinful human nature and a very perfectionistic interpretation of the investigative judgement from 1844. In this group santification in the life of the beleiver is heavily stressed. Some Sub-groups beleive in the Arian herecy and many of these groups and sub -groups can be found in independent ministries and the internet.

    The book "Questions on doctrine" was published in 1957. The book was printed as an answer to questions raised by the evangelicals Barnhouse and Martin and their studies of Adventism v the theologians of the Adventist Church and their understanding at that time. Many of the so called pillars of Adventism were watered down or changed 180% as seen by the Historic Adventists. The doctrine of the Trinity was more formally established and the doctrine of the sinful nature of christ was dropped. Other sectarian doctrines such as calling the other churches Babylon and the doctrine of the Remnant Church was also changed. There was also more openess to the protestant Gospel of "Righteousness by Faith".

    These events became the catalyst in forming two groups within the church with those to some degree holding to remnants of reformed and developed Historic Adventists and those rejecting altogether and becoming evengelical christians. The evangelicals are supported by " Good News Unlimited", Spectrum Magazine and "Atoday'.

    The fourth group are "the liberals"although they are a small group are separate from the others because of their teachings. They may hold to evolution and not beleive in the virgin birth. Some of the clergy belong to this group but run into problems in their ministries.

    So there is quite a spectrum of beleifs within the church my grandmother wouldn' t attend the church for ten years because she beleived it was all to confusing for her. She told me in the old days the church would confront apostacy from the pulpit but now she said to me "You don't know what the person sitting next to you beleives.

    Barry

    ziddina posted Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:04:00 GMT(4/10/2012)

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    Interesting comments, Steve2 - I'm listening to that video clip again...

    I did wonder about that "...private sins must be rebuked in private; public sins must be rebuked in public..." comment.

    I also wonder what their practical interpretation of "rebuking" amounts to - do they practice shunning, or some form of that type of discipline?

    M steve2 posted Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:08:00 GMT(4/10/2012)

    Post 4495 of 8595
    Joined 10/31/2004

    Thanks Barry for bringing such helpful perspective to the discussion. The additional information about trends in the religion is very interesting. I may have said so in earlier threads, but my closest childhood friend was a SDA, although he later left. He was such a sensible, reasonable man and I used to enjoy my chats with him. I learnt a lot from him but most of all, his humility shone through (despite having a witch for a mother - but that's another story!)

    Ziddina, I think how rebuking is done may vary from place to place among SDAs. Locally, I know a SDA man who started up his own house group and refused to comply with requests that he not proslytize among members of the SDA. He was rebuked within the church on a number of occasions (so his family informed him). But the overall impression I got was the local SDAs were "all over the place" about what to do, but the body representing the SDA church in New Zealand were more clear cut: He was to be "de-frocked" with loss of his role within the church.

    One overall conclusion I have come to about the SDAs is they struggle to have consensus about what to do when there are dissenting views and it ends up looking very murky and equivocal. I got that very same impression from listening to the admittedly well-reasoned video above: It's a little bit like, if you have the gift of the gab, you can end up talking yourself into anything - and yet it still doesn't sound right (if that makes sense).

    The tension within the SDAs is not unlike the tension among different groups within the Episcopalian/Anglican and Presbyterian churches.

    barry posted Sun, 15 Apr 2012 07:45:00 GMT(4/15/2012)

    Post 1035 of 1355
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    Gday Zidinna and Steve,

    I was a bit confused about the reference to sinning when the good professors main thrust of his talk was apostasy.

    Willful sins such as breaking the commandments are delt with by talking to the pastor or in very bad cases a person may be disfellowshiped until they are repentant. Of course we all sin everyday.

    Apostasy is different it only amounts to a difference of opinion. My opinions may be closer to the evangelical end of the spectrum and I would be regarded as apostate to someone from the traditional sector and visa versa. A pastor in the church has to be more carefull as he is paid by the church he may be fired if he was to upset people with his personal opinions. It has been said a pastor can beleive anything and as long as he doesn't upset people but if he was to question 1844 and the investigative judgement [an Adventist fundamental teaching] he would be fired.

    An ordinary parishioner such as myself can take issue with something you may dissagree on at church or in a bible study without any consequence I have done it many times. We go to the Anglican churrch now and I just hope they are the same.

    Of course shunning doesn't exist in the SDAs.

    Barry

    Heaven posted Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:22:00 GMT(4/15/2012)

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    Obedience to these laws means abstinence from pork, shellfish, and other foods proscribed as "unclean".

    Well that settles it. I could never be an Adventist. "I'm out!"

    Interesting how food seems to enter into some of these ideals...

    Religion Flowchart

    designs posted Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:49:00 GMT(4/15/2012)

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    My daughter's MIL was raised SDA and left for similar reasons many young JW people leave- being considered odd with religious practices, shunning.

    barry posted Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:15:00 GMT(4/15/2012)

    Post 1036 of 1355
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    gday designs, The SDAs don't shun, beleive me. I have never seen it happen. Barry

    designs posted Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:41:00 GMT(4/15/2012)

    Post 10103 of 19096
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    That may be but according to the MIL her family was shunned by the local SDA church so ?

    barry posted Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:04:00 GMT(4/15/2012)

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    Gday Designs, There are differences in SDA policy from one congeration to another so you could be right but I can say there is no official poIicy on shunning. Barry

    barry posted Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:14:00 GMT(4/15/2012)

    Post 1038 of 1355
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    Heaven , I love prawns shelfish and crabs and have never been a vegetarian. Barry

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