Baptism

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    new one posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:42:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 15 of 21
    Joined 1/3/2012

    Hi everyone,

    I just wanted to ask a question as regards Jw baptism. I already know that just before the actual baptism the soon to be Jw has to answer 2 questions, but what I'd like to know is this: During the actual baptism do the Jw's stick to Matt 28:19 "baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" ?

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    I'd also like to know if it would be possible to speak privatly with one of the more experianced members. I've recently being having discussions with my old study conductor and there's a few things I need some help with, I can't put to much about that on here just incase.

    Chris.

    Sulla posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:53:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 336 of 1165
    Joined 6/2/2011

    They do not. This is the reason why many Christian churches do not recognise a JW baptism as a valid Christian baptism.

    transhuman68 posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:40:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 1334 of 2382
    Joined 3/30/2010

    Welcome, new one. Here's a thread that might answer your question: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/medical/190981/1/Validity-of-JW-Baptism

    If you use the search function, you can find just about anything. Cheers.

    Scully posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:00:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 16887 of 13520
    Joined 11/2/2001

    Watchtower changes Baptism Questions

    "At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ's example.

    The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

    The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

    Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism."

    Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30

    TimothyT posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:07:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 539 of 580
    Joined 2/23/2011

    What a great question. I also asked the same thing to a sister in my congregation before I was disfellowship. I told her that I felt my baptism was invalid because it wasnt done in the manner that Jesus said. She told me that it was totaly correct, but I dont see how because it was done differently from what Jesus said.

    Timmy x

    Ding posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:20:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 3093 of 5064
    Joined 8/27/2010

    Several decades ago, you might hear a JW say, "I wasn't baptized into an organization."

    Not any more.

    Now they are.

    As Ray Franz came to see, the organization supplants Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

    IMO, by claiming to be "God's sole channel of communication on earth" they supplant the Father as well.

    new one posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:22:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 16 of 21
    Joined 1/3/2012

    So at the moment their dunked the baptizer says 'I baptise you in the name of the father, son and Gods spirit directed oranisation?

    Thanks for the replys so far : )

    new one posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:28:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 17 of 21
    Joined 1/3/2012

    If it's true that Jw's dont get baptised as instructed by Jesus, then thats the end of my duscussions with my old study conductor. I know in the gander scheme of things it might sound trivial, but it's really been bugging me.

    stillstuckcruz posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:06:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 268 of 324
    Joined 1/27/2011

    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/baptism.php

    There's MANY other things that will bother you through some research. :)

    outsmartthesystem posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 22:48:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 394 of 1187
    Joined 5/19/2011

    NOTHING is said AT THE TIME you are dunked. Trust me. I was 16 when I was baptized. I remember it well. I listened intently to hear if anything was said when others were dunked and .....nope. Nothing

    M james_woods posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:02:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 7859 of 12292
    Joined 10/26/2005
    So at the moment their dunked the baptizer says 'I baptise you in the name of the father, son and Gods spirit directed oranisation?

    NOTHING is said AT THE TIME you are dunked. Trust me. I was 16 when I was baptized. I remember it well. I listened intently to hear if anything was said when others were dunked and .....nope. Nothing

    Yes, the above is exactly correct. Witness baptism has nothing to with Jesus, or Christianity. It is a ceremony to join the ranks of Watchtower Society followers. Hence the two questions at the mass assembly.

    Witnesses do not even have any individuality at the moment of their baptism - (unless they happen to be the only candidate at that assembly) - they are just group think applicants to join a human organization.

    ziddina posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:27:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 8058 of 10450
    Joined 4/8/2009
    "I'd also like to know if it would be possible to speak privatly with one of the more experianced members. I've recently being having discussions with my old study conductor and there's a few things I need some help with, I can't put to much about that on here just in case. ...."

    New One, you could try PM'ing Scully - she's one of the board's MODs... Scully

    Also, the member Ding - above - is knowledgeable in many scriptural issues... Ding

    They are good people to start with - and ask for THEIR recommendations as to who else might be able to help you...

    blond-moment posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:33:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 116 of 506
    Joined 7/20/2011

    Due to my indepth research of tris organization, I no longer believe they were ever God's organization. Do I believe they are spirit directed? If you believe in the spirit world, yes they are. Which spirit however? It sure isn't the Holy Spirit.

    Even the baptism question just calls it the "spirit directed" - Holy Spirit isn't mentioned (so much for not going beyond what is written). Which spirit is it or is it all of them. Legion anyone?

    ziddina posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:36:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 8059 of 10450
    Joined 4/8/2009
    "Which spirit is it or is it all of them. Legion anyone?..."

    Hah!!! Good one, Blonde Moment!!!

    JWB posted Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:55:00 GMT(2/24/2012)

    Post 60 of 324
    Joined 10/16/2011

    Well, those of us who got baptized in the '70s never agreed to get truth exclusively under the 'enlightening power' of "God's spirit-directed organization" (aka the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania, who incidentally hold the copyright to the 'spiritual food'). Ours was a much more scriptural one:

    "On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?" ("Baptizing Follows Discipling", from the 1 May 1973 Watchtower.)

    M james_woods posted Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:03:00 GMT(2/25/2012)

    Post 7860 of 12292
    Joined 10/26/2005

    What JWB mentions was destroyed in the late 1970s because many people leaving the WTBTS org at that time claimed that they did not get baptized in the name of the organization.

    The Watchtower wanted (in their typical "legality") to be able to say that we had "violated our vows to the Watchtower/Governing Body" - which made it easier to "legally" disfellowship people who had differences with them.

    Thus, one more step away from the simple baptism of John the Baptist.

    new one posted Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:21:00 GMT(2/25/2012)

    Post 18 of 21
    Joined 1/3/2012

    Thank you all for the responses. When my old study conductor came round the other day I had a few questions as regards the divinty of Christ, I'd boomarked scriptures on my phone that pointed toward christ being divine and I pointed a number of them out to him, I wont reel them all off as I'm sure that you're all more than familar with the subject lol.

    The first scripture was Isaiah 9:6 Which I ponted out directly called Jesus - Mighty God and Everlasting father, The Jw said he had no problem with Jesus being called Mighty God as even some of the prophets where called Gods at some point and being Called a God wasn't like being called God. As for everlasting father hE said Jesus is everlasting but that doesn't mean he always was as he did have a begining I think He atributed the father part to Jesus being the first to be raised from the dead but I can't be sure as I had lots running through my head in this conversation.

    Then I mention John 8:58 which he kinda mutterd was a mistranslation a quickly moved along. Anyway the conversation went back and forth like that for around 40 minuets And ended with me exaplaing that the trinty he'd taught me about whilst I was studying was actually modalism and that the real explanation of the trinity actually made sesnse to me and by just reading the bible alone the idea of the trinty actually jumps out at the reader.

    So he asked me to look up the various words for 'Lord' and 'God' in both Hebrew and Greek and said he'll come back next week for another discussion, I'm not going to research what he asked me to as I've got a lot of questions and I feel by him giving me homework he's actually trying to lead the conversations and therefore bypassing my concerns. Now I'm not engaging in these discussions with the Jw so I can attack his faith in anyway, I really do just have a lot of questions and if he can make sense of these question I'd be more than happy to study.

    I've explained that I feel since I gave up my bible studies with him I have learnt more about the bible by using commentaries and the things I'd learnt where straight out the Bible and all made sense.

    Anyway my main concerns as regards the watctower are :

    The trinity.

    Blood

    Shunning

    1914

    and to be honest the fact that they cant just go door to door using the bible.

    So I intend to have discussions over the coming weeks on all the above subjects continuing with the trinty on Wednesday and If anyone could help me out as regards prooving that Jesus was God the son I'd be greatfull.

    Sorry I've gone ot and thanks for reading.

    Regards

    Chris.

    Ucantnome posted Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:29:00 GMT(2/25/2012)

    Post 142 of 1521
    Joined 8/20/2011

    I had a discussion with an elder a few years ago about Christ and him being a god. The conclusion was it means he is god like.

    The baptism bothers me. I had a discussion with a theologian regarding my concerns. I still havent totally resolved them.

    it seems to me that one is baptising into an angel of light and the other into God.

    JWB posted Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:37:00 GMT(2/25/2012)

    Post 62 of 324
    Joined 10/16/2011

    Chris, how about asking him this question:

    Are JWs under the ecclesiastical authority of anyone?

    If he says, 'No', he is either amazingly ignorant, or he is lying.

    new one posted Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:39:00 GMT(2/25/2012)

    Post 19 of 21
    Joined 1/3/2012

    Hi Ucantnome,

    If you don't mind me asking what did the theologian have to say on the subject?

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