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Do you believe in an annointed class?

    irondork posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:42:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Regarless of their identity - in fact, if they are really "discreet" their identity should probably remain unknown - do you believe the bible speaks of a spirit annointed class of folks, a limited number of humans that have been called to heaven to serve with Jesus?

    cantleave posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:51:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    No!

    sizemik posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:55:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    no . . .

    seriously flawed doctrine based on specious scriptual reasoning

    irondork posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 09:56:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    If your answer is YES, I already know the scriptural reasoning behind it. If NO, I am curious about your reasons.

    F AnnOMaly posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:23:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Not a separate 'anointed class,' no.

    The Luke 12:32 isn't some kind of 'rule' that says those being given the kingdom will be a 'little flock.' The account says there was a huge crowd that had come to see Jesus. 'Little flock' was just an expression he was using to his (far fewer) disciples in the audience.

    The 144,000 number is found in a book full of numeric symbolisms. Why insist that it's literal - especially when the 12 x 12,000 numbers that comprise it are symbolic, according to the WTS? Illogical.

    John 1:12; Rom. 8:14 and Gal. 3:26-29 make clear that spirit anointing and adoption as sons are open to all who have accepted Christ.

    If there was only one class of 'true Christians' in the 1st century and the NT was written to and for them, what changed?

    designs posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:42:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Was Jesus setting the tone for a limited and elite membership when he spoke of contrasts such as 'cramped and narrow is the road to life and few are the ones finding it, broad and spacious is the road leading to destruction' Mt.7:13. Did this fly in the face of Judaism that had developed over centuries a much more egalitarian view of who and how God would save all of humanity.

    F jgnat posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 12:29:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    No. Jesus gave promises and prophecies. He did not distinguish who would be the beneficiaries, but offered it to all.

    Well, I should qualify. He did mention that he had come for Isrealites, not Gentiles (Matthew 15:21-28). But then he healed anyways.

    That is the only split that I see in the NT accounts, between Jew and Gentile. I do not see "two hopes", "two classes".

    PSacramento posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 12:32:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    All who accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour are annointed by the HS.

    inbetween posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 12:37:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Joined 6/29/2009

    how would would explain this:

    Revelation 5:9, world wide english:

    #9And the four living beings and the leaders sang a new song. The new song was: `You are able to take the book and to open its locks, because you were killed. You have set the people free and bought them for God with the cost of your blood. They are from every tribe, language, nation, and country.

    10 You have made them into kings and priests for our God. They will rule on the earth.'

    Does this scripture indicate at least two classes ? One class, made up of humans, who will rule, and others who will be subjects ?

    Interestingly, the NWT says, ruling over the earth, what does the Greek word really indicate ?

    M Wasanelder Once posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 13:43:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    How would I explain Rev 5:9? Put down the storybook and step away from the Kingdom Hall. Rent a good movie and anoint a bowl of popcorn with butter and enjoy. Rule over the livingroom with justice and snacks.

    Quendi posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 14:52:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Joined 1/13/2011

    I am a firm believer in a separate "anointed" class of Christians. Furthermore, I believe that while the number 144,000 is symbolic, there is a limited number of those called to serve with Jesus as kings and priests in heaven. I subscribe to many preterist beliefs so I also think that the number was filled back in the first century. Consequently, I do not see myself as one of the "called and chosen". Thanks, irondork, for starting this thread.

    Quendi

    F jgnat posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:23:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    See how Jesus responded when the brothers started speculating about status:

    Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what [about] this man?" Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what [is that] to you? You follow Me." Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what [is that] to you?" Jhn 21:21-23 (NKJV)

    At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. "Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. Mat 18:1-5 (NKJV)

    You will note also that all are in heaven, those leading and those following. Jesus' promises of the Kingdom of Heaven was open to all who heard him.

    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2Cr 12:2-4 (NKJV)

    This is the only mention in the bible of a third heaven, and may be a reflection of the beliefs of the time.

    F jgnat posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 15:37:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Revelation 5:10 κα? ?πο?ησας ?μ?ς τ? θε? ?μ?ν βασιλε?ς κα? ?ερε?ς κα? βασιλε?σομεν ?π? τ?ς γ?ς Word: epi Pronounce: ep-ee' Strongs Number: G1909 Orig: a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively). Use: Preposition Heb Strong: 1) upon, on, at, by, before
    2) of position, on, at, by, over, against
    3) to, over, on, at, across, against

    Kosonen posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:20:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Yes and I am not ashamed of that!

    Mad Sweeney posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 19:23:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    If your answer is YES, I already know the scriptural reasoning behind it. If NO, I am curious about your reasons.

    My answer is "no" and that is because the "scriptural reasoning behind it" is ridiculous. There is no mention in the Bible of an earthly resurrection. At all. Anywhere. None. On the other hand, the hope Jesus held out scripturally was "for all." Knowing the hope he held out was also heavenly, the ONLY LOGICAL conclusion is that the scriptures point to a heavenly hope for all.

    Here it is in a simpler format:

    • There is no scriptural mention of an earthly resurrection
    • There is scriptural mention of a heavenly hope
    • Jesus held out the hope of everlasting life for all
    • Therefore the hope of everlasting life Jesus held out was to be in heaven

    And as an addendum, since there are an unlimited number of people the offer is held out to, the number of people who receive it can not possibly be limited. Period. The End.

    F AnnOMaly posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 19:40:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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      • There is no scriptural mention of an earthly resurrection
      • There is scriptural mention of a heavenly hope

    There is no scriptural mention of a heavenly resurrection either.

    Do the Scriptures talk of a hope emanating from heaven or a hope of going to heaven?

    http://www.leithvalley.org.nz/Resources/NewHeavensEarth_Wright.pdf

    Just throwing out another perspective here FWIW.

    irondork posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:04:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Mad Sweeney:There is no scriptural mention of an earthly resurrection

    Well, the bible does talk about the meek inheriting the earth.

    I appreciate all the feedback. Since I disassociated I have been reexamining alot of stuff. You've given me some good stuff to think about.

    TDaze posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 23:31:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Why the hell would anyone still believe that crap? It's not like the gospels are more than mere myths, let alone Revelations!

    Mad Sweeney posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 23:58:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

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    Mad Sweeney:There is no scriptural mention of an earthly resurrection

    Well, the bible does talk about the meek inheriting the earth.

    That scripture mentions nothing about being dead and then resurrected; it isn't even implied. I don't know anybody who ever inherited anything after THEY died. You inherit things after OTHER PEOPLE die. The inheritOR is still alive.

    There is no scriptural mention of a heavenly resurrection either.

    Not in so many words but John 14 Jesus says he's going to heaven to prepare a place for his followers and that he would come back, get them, and bring them to that place with him. If you believe the Bible, there are only three possibilities: 1) they are still alive on earth and haven't died yet, 2) they die and are resurrected to heaven, 3) they don't die but are brought to heaven without dying

    There isn't anything close that doesn't require language twisting and mental gymnastics to support any sort of earthly resurrection. Heavenly resurrection is implied throughout the NT.

    discreetslave posted Thu, 07 Jul 2011 00:25:00 GMT(7/7/2011)

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    Before I was a JW I was catholic. I had always believed the world should be a perfect paradise where people lived forever. I believed in God & that Jesus died for my sins & they lived in heaven. I didn't doubt people went to heaven I just didn't see myself there I wanted to live on earth with the animals.

    Then I met JW's and their teachings matched my ideas this appealed to me. I always had issue with the destruction part & the countless lives to be lost.

    I now believe there is a heavenly & earthly group. Heaven is for all Christians who God deems worthy of the kingdom. Cristians who made known the anti-christ are foremost reformers like Martin Luther, William Tyndale, Ray Franz, etc....

    The earth will consist of everyone else whose heart God has read and deemed worthy of life regardless of beliefs. By means of your seed all nations will bless themselves.

    Armageddon is for those whose traits manifest themselves as Satan's seed This is judged by God alone. This will consist of all who are responsible for horrible atrocities and God knows they are unrepentant. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is the manisfestation of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place.

    These are my current beliefs after the JW mindset they may or may not change

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