Preventing a minor child from being baptized if you are their parent


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    RayPublisher posted Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:44:00 GMT(7/5/2011)

    Post 159 of 1918
    Joined 3/1/2011

    There may be no way legally for me to stop this, but it is a worry since I "woke up" to the truth about the truth a couple years ago.

    Now my young kids (9 and 11) are heading in that direction at the urging of their mother. I am still inside and trying to do a fade (for family/friend reasons) but sometimes I wonder if leaving would be smarter in the long run for them. I am definitely willing to do it for them.

    Any thoughts or strategies are welcome.

    mummatron posted Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:54:00 GMT(7/5/2011)

    Post 142 of 575
    Joined 6/1/2011

    Seeing as you're still technically in you could pull rank with the headship arrangement and insist that they must be 18+ before committing to baptism. Use Jesus as the example to scriptually back it up.

    Of everyone in my congo who got baptised before the age of 14, and there was quite a few of them, all but 1 have been DF'd/DA'd by their early 20's. I would imagine this is the norm in most places, so you could reason with your wife that maybe she'd prefer her children make up their own minds when they're 'of age' rather than her potentially face years of none/minimal contact with them if they later decided that the bOrg isn't for them once they've grown up.

    M Black Sheep posted Tue, 05 Jul 2011 21:02:00 GMT(7/5/2011)

    Post 7310 of 9991
    Joined 8/8/2003

    Get this book out of the library .............. today.

    Read it yourself so that you know what to expect.

    Then, if you think it is suitable, study it with your kids and, if you can, your wife as well.

    RayPublisher posted Tue, 05 Jul 2011 21:26:00 GMT(7/5/2011)

    Post 160 of 1918
    Joined 3/1/2011

    @mummatron - Pulling rank and just saying no won't work w my wife she is firmly aware of obeying "God rather than men" (specifically her man lol) I may try the Jesus' age of 30 point, thank you for that.

    Plus they are still a bit young but I'm trying to prepare them now for ways to avoid it bc in the next year or two their little friends in the hall are going to start getting dunked and that's always when they want to do it, or at least become interested in it.

    @Black sheep - am looing at the book on Amazon right now, very cool.

    Band on the Run posted Tue, 05 Jul 2011 22:03:00 GMT(7/5/2011)

    Post 1644 of 9876
    Joined 12/18/2010

    My mom was batpized around twelve and expelled from high school for the flag salute at 14. It made her very bitter and deeply hurt. My gm would not have hesitated to salute if any onus were placed on her. Indeed, The Supreme Court never ruled it was all right for a student to refuse. Their decision, the last on the subject, held that parents could not be penalized.

    My counsins started to get baptized at 12. I was eleven. All I could see was the love in which they basked. The instant approval. To me, it was marriage. Instant adulthood. Own car. Own home. Own hubby. Own children. A nice shortcut to adulthood. I shared my utter jealously with my mom. She said we would be baptized young over her dead body. She said I would not understand but dedicated was very serious. There was no turning back without the most serious consequences. It was more than Catholic baptism. She said the thirties were the beginning of an appropriate time. Further, she was willing to be severely beaten by my father. She would not discuss whether she no longer believed. Obvious now but not to an eleven year old.

    Within two years, I caught brothers misreading simple literature. How could the Holy Spirit allow it? My communal ties at school, neighborhood, and, most importantly, my college bound curricula, led me very far away. I was dragged to the KH against my will. My counsins emerged barefoot and pregnant, high school dropouts. Forced marriages with babies popping out months too soon. I had not a shred of jealousy left.

    Oh, The Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan. I screeched my teenboppyer head off. I'm seeing McCartney this summer. The music was infecttious but I screached b/c every white girl my age in existence screeched. There was a clear choice between rock music and JWs. I chose exuberant, life-giving, common rock music.

    It felt so sublime. My school was so poor we receive federal aid to see the Stravinsky Festival, opera, ballet, plays. Yes! The KH could not compete.

    Still, for all my unbelief, I was relieved they could not tag me and disfellowship me. I could be at Woodstoock or the Filmore and worry about A. in my mind.

    Evidently Apostate posted Tue, 05 Jul 2011 22:55:00 GMT(7/5/2011)

    Post 246 of 264
    Joined 8/26/2010

    Evidently Apostate posted Tue, 05 Jul 2011 23:01:00 GMT(7/5/2011)

    Post 247 of 264
    Joined 8/26/2010

    Scully posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 03:26:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 16442 of 13474
    Joined 11/2/2001

    What's the rush?

    Caesarâ„¢ doesn't allow children to do whatever they want until they reach a certain level of maturity.

    They can't consume alcohol legally, obtain a driver's licence, enter into a contract, obtain a credit card, join the military, get a job, drop out of school, buy firearms, purchase cigarettes, get married, etc.

    I like comparing baptism to the stance that the WTS presents regarding marriage, from the old Making Your Family Life Happy book (the gold cover). They recommend that a courtship take place over an extended period of time to allow each person to get to know the other, rather than rushing into a marriage hastily and having regrets later on. They say this because marriage is such a serious commitment, and a vow taken before god.

    Why, then, should anyone rush into baptism - particularly if the individual in question is not fully mature (at least not mature enough to get married), if that commitment involves a vow taken before god and is a decision that is considered even more serious than marriage? Jesus was a fully mature adult of 30 years of age. He was certainly old enough to be married, have a livelihood and a trade before his baptism, and before beginning his ministry. He undertook that decision as an adult, having studied under Jewish teachers during his youth. He didn't have his parents coaxing him into it, or wanting to get baptized because all his friends were doing it, the way a lot of young JWs in their teens do. It was HIS decision, as an adult, and nobody else's.

    You might, if discussing it privately with your wife, express concern that should either of your children make a poor decision post-baptism that you'd both be required to shun them. Say that you know you've got great kids, but you don't think you could handle it, and you wouldn't want her to experience that pain either. Make it about preventing her from having her heart broken like that. Wonder out loud with her whether it would be better for the children to be a little more mature, a little wiser, so they can make an informed decision from the heart, rather than one that is based on peer/parental pressure. Say you'd hate for them to make a mistake after they got baptized before they were really ready, and end up DFd... and then turn around and say "mom and dad pressured us into it, and now they won't speak to us". It has to be their decision, without any external influence from any source, including yourselves.

    pbrow posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 04:56:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 52 of 326
    Joined 10/29/2010

    I take it from the comments that you are still with the mother.

    I think its go time. You need to make a clean open break with the religion. Ask yourself, do you want your kids contemplating this same scenario when they are older? Do you want them to regret being taught a lie for 20 years and then having an epiphany at 20, 30, 40 or even later?? Hell no!! You cant teach your kids to think critically by reading a book and then live a lie. You need to step up for the kids sake. I am not saying its easy, but what is the alternative?? I look back and ask "how did my mom teach me this bs?" They are only kids once, give them the chance to play a sport, be on the debate team or whatever else they are into and just be a normal kid!!

    Fading is living a lie. That is not judgemental . I know some faders and I know why they are doing it. But one of the reasons I woke up is because of the thought of having to explain to my kids some effed up things that do not make sense to me. They will learn above all else by what you DO, not what you say.

    I feel for you bro, not an easy decision for you.


    J. Hofer posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:03:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 423 of 1268
    Joined 1/28/2011

    remember that picture in the youth book with the two children in wedding dresses? it was something along the lines of "do you think these two are ready for marriage"?

    they say baptism is the single biggest decision a person makes in his life. now if baptism is a bigger step than marriage, how would a child be ready for it?

    when i grew up some brothers tried to pressure me into baptism, but i told them that jesus got baptized at what was considered full age back then, as an adult. so i did the same at what is considered full age now in my country, at 18 (should have waited till 30, i wouldn't have done it then...).

    Nathan Natas posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:36:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 9195 of 9588
    Joined 4/25/2001

    Your kids may have become convinced that they need to be baptized to assure their survival at Armageddon.

    If so, this is proof of their SPIRITUAL IMMATURITY and lack of "accurate knowledge."

    Throughout the years, the WTB&TS has made it clear that minor children will benefit from the faith of their parents.

    Since both you and your wife are JWs in good standing, it is entirely appropriate that your MINOR, DEPENDANT children not be forced into a decision they are not mature enough to make.

    You would not let your kids get married at this age, and Bethel would not consider them as volunteers at this age.

    They might also be "too young" to be full-time pioneers, but I'm not certain of that.

    You can make a big, JUSTIFIED stink about how you will not tolerate having your children question your "god given" authority.

    In this instance, you may be of more help to them by not leaving so soon. you can protect your kids better by using your headship to shield them from harmful WTB&TS radiation.

    Good luck!

    Nathan Natas posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:39:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 9196 of 9588
    Joined 4/25/2001

    Challenge your wife to explain why infant baptism is wrong and what the signs of "maturity" are.

    Nathan Natas posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:49:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 9197 of 9588
    Joined 4/25/2001

    Ask the elders for TWO Bethel applications, and have your wife help them fill it out.

    Maybe the elders will mention that they're too young for bethel. "But why? They're young and full of zeal. You boys DID want to go to Bethel, didn't you?"

    If your wife brings up the "rather than MEN" quotefirst show her that this applies to "wolrdly" men, not CHISTIAN FATHERS, then counter wiith Paul's " women should be SILENT" comment. If she gives you grief, take her to the elders.

    the cards are all in your favor if you play them right.

    pbrow posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:50:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 53 of 326
    Joined 10/29/2010

    Nathan, I dont see how he could be more benificial to them by staying in. Give the kids a chance to be involved in a normal childhood and they will not choose the dubs. A huge weapon in the indoctrination process is sheltering them from the other side of things. SHOW THEM THE OTHER SIDE!! Ray, get out. Have a birthday party with them and maybe a few kids from school. When the dub friends find out and start to move away from hanging with your kids explain this to them!! Tell them that the jw kids are not allowed to play with them because.... you dont agree with everything they do. That is showing your kids what a croc these people stand for. You are the father. You live with them. Take the bull by the horns! Your kids are more important than any other reason or person to "stay in" for. By staying in and pretending for the next 2, 3, 4 or 5 years you are just allowing the mindset to creep in.

    GTFO for your kids!!


    M jwfacts posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:55:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 5906 of 8024
    Joined 6/25/2005

    I agree with the "teaching your children how to think approach." Without even sounding apostate, you can start to study with them about areas that will lead them to the conclusion that it is not the truth. Study general history, all the wars, sickness, poverty and famines of the past, so they know we are not living in the worst time ever. Study with them Watchtower history, so they realise it is a new and changing religion. My daughter was stunned when I told her about Pastor Russell. She thought there had always been JWs. She realised the religion was a joke when hearing the religion was started by a self titled Pastor only a little over 100 years ago. Discuss world religion, so they comprehend that the religion they are part of is solely based on the place they were born, and hence it is not logical to teach that other youth will die at Armageddon for not being part of the correct organisation.

    Nathan Natas posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:59:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 9198 of 9588
    Joined 4/25/2001

    Pbrow, your entitled to your opinion even if it is wrong.

    If he breaks the family now, he will be seen as a "spiritual threat" to his wife and kids, and the WT will help her gain custody of them. By breaking the family, he will lose time he could spend with his kids and will subject them to unneccessary economic hardship. First he needs to get his wife in line and then he needs to begin discovering the flaws in the Watchtower TOGETHER WITH THEM, not as a demonic outsider.

    Nathan Natas posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 07:05:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 9199 of 9588
    Joined 4/25/2001

    jwfacts, that is good advice. He is simply helping his children learn to reason clearly so they can do well in school - an admirable motivation for a loving Father! Discussing history in general and the history of science and religion in particular are good strategies. Discuss the many parasitical diseases that exist on earth and let them ask how parasites fulfill god's purpose.

    M jwfacts posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 07:08:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 5907 of 8024
    Joined 6/25/2005

    The reason to teach your children how to determine if it is the truth, is that you will not be able to prevent them otherwise. There is a poster here that tried to enforce with the wife, child and elders that the child was not to be baptised under the age of 16. They went behind his back and the son got baptised without telling the father. The father threatened the elders legally that the baptism is illegal and should be anullled but was ignored.

    The details are here

    Nathan Natas posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 07:16:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 9201 of 9588
    Joined 4/25/2001

    Assuming his kids want to get baptised RIGHT NOW, how does he prevent it? If the elders and his wife are such dishonest sneaks that they would go behind his back to baptize a child, what can he do to stop it for the time being?

    somehow i feel that turning into ULTRA-APOSTATE isn't the way to go. Besides, I've already got that job.

    pbrow posted Wed, 06 Jul 2011 07:19:00 GMT(7/6/2011)

    Post 54 of 326
    Joined 10/29/2010

    Thanks for the insight. I didnt realize my opinion was wrong bro! It is working for me but I am not in the exact same situation. Just throwing my perspective out there. Ray, you dont NEED to put a letter in, but let the kids get involved. Play sports, celebrate birthdays, sleepovers. Your the dad right?? Do you have no power in these areas? If thats the case then there are other issues involved. I wish you the best Ray, get the kids out whatever way you see possible. It seems to me the longer you wait for your "wife to get inline" which may take awhile, your children are being immersed in the JW culture. They are almost dripping wet with it already.

    as a side note, Jwfacts... thank you for everything you have done bro, you are lifesaver. Thank you!



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