607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

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    Witness My Fury posted Thu, 05 May 2011 23:13:00 GMT(5/5/2011)

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    If this has been covered before i apologise in advance. Using ONLY the bible and a bit of common sense.

    OK, here goes:

    Do the "seventy years" count from Jerusalems destruction or not? What does the bible actually say...?

    Jeremiah makes the "seventy years" prophesy in the 1st year of Nebuchnezzar (4th year of Jehoiakim) according to Jeremiah chapter 25. That is 18 years BEFORE Jerusalems destruction!

    Jeremiah repeats Jehovahs statement about "seventy years" in his letter written to the exiles in Babylon taken under King Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiachin, Jehoiakims son), the letter was sent under king Zedekiah who was installed in his place and likely very early in his reign. Zedekiah reigned for 11 years before Jerusalems destruction.

    This is in Jeremiah chapter 29. This well before Jerusalems destruction and likely around 10 years before it. (Now I'm no grammatical expert but the english translation in the NWT also lends itself to a UNFOLDING and then CURRENT prophesy more than to a FUTURE event in my opinion, but maybe that's stressing it too far?)

    Now as Jeremiah is the ONLY one who was given this prophesy, it's kind of important to know when it was given. These are the ONLY references made to it in Jeremiah and neither is near the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Kind of makes you think doesnt it??

    Now Carl Olaf Jonson in The Gentile Times Reconsidered does the heavy lifting and demolishes 607 totally and full kudos goes to him for his excellent book, but we all know most Witnesses will stop reading and thinking the minute they detect any contrary viewpoint, so I wanted a way using ONLY the bible as a 1st step before unleasing the hounds on them.

    Edited to add:

    If this makes no sense whatsoever here's why it is important:

    WTS teaches that this prophesy of the "seventy years" applies ONLY after the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple (and govenor Gedaliahs murder to be precise).

    Ding posted Thu, 05 May 2011 23:55:00 GMT(5/5/2011)

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    JWs don't care what the Bible says, only what the FDS says the Bible says...

    Witness My Fury posted Fri, 06 May 2011 00:20:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

    Post 268 of 2838
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    Too true, but you need to jangle their cog disonance once in a while to shake them off that treadmill..

    GrandmaJones posted Fri, 06 May 2011 02:54:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

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    Are you familiar with this thread? I found it very helpful.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/55372/1/586-587-the-K-I-S-S-approach-no-VAT4956-Ptolemy-Josephus-needed

    djeggnog posted Fri, 06 May 2011 21:55:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

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    @Witness My Fury:

    WTS teaches that this prophesy of the "seventy years" applies ONLY after the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple (and govenor Gedaliahs murder to be precise).

    This is specifically what the Bible indicates, and this is what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

    Do the "seventy years" count from Jerusalems destruction or not?

    Yes.

    What does the bible actually say...?

    The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, but Jewish servitude didn't begin until Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year in 618 BC. (Jeremiah 25:11) More importantly though, it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year in 607 BC when Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah, who had fled Jerusalem, was overtaken at Jericho, blinded and then led captive to Babylon.

    The 587 BC advocates cannot reconcile 587 BC with 539 BC, because it isn't possible to find 70 years between 587 BC and 539 BC, for one would be 22 years shy of fulfilling those 70 years that God declared the land must lay desolate to pay off its sabbaths.

    While Jeremiah 25:11 does speak of "these nations" being forced to serve King Nebuchadnezzar for "seventy years," it was not until 607 BC that Judah began to lie desolate just as Jehovah had foretold would occur by His prophet Jeremiah, some 11 years after the servitude of "these nations" in the Syria-Palestine region had already begun in 618 BC. It was only then -- in 607 BC -- that "the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon" by the Jews began, during which "the land [would pay] off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years." (Jeremiah 29:10; 2 Chronicles 36:21)

    At Jeremiah 46:2, we learn that it was during the fourth year of the reign of King Jehoiakim's reign that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar), was victorious over the king of Egypt, Pharaoh Necho; this was in the year 625 BC.

    The next year, in 624 BC, Nebuchadnezzar officially ascended to the throne following his father's death, Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, which was his second accession year, and in his fourth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king; this was during Jehoiakim's seventh year in 621 BC. However, Jehoiakim's rebellion resulted in Jerusalem being besieged by Babylon and in Jehoiakim's death, so that his son, Jehoiachin, then became Babylon's vassal king during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year which ended in Nisan 617 BC.

    It was then that Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoichin's uncle Mattaniah his vassal king, changing his name of Zedekiah. However, it was during the ninth year of Zedekiah's reign in 609 BC, Nebuchadnezzar's 16th regnal year, that Zedekiah rebelled against Babylon and attempted to ally Judah with Egypt against Babylon, so that the siege against Judah was momentarily halted due to the report regarding Egypt. (Jeremiah 37:5).

    But in 607 BC, during Zedekiah's 11th year, Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, his 19th accession year, Jerusalem was again besieged by Babylon, Jerusalem's wall was successfully breached, and Zedekiah's sons were all slaughtered as Zedekiah watched after which he himself was blinded, bound and led prisoner to Babylon where he died. (2 Kings 25:1, 2, 8-10)

    Those that believe Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BC, some 20 years after its destruction in 607 BC, are those that reject the fact that Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar through his chief of the bodyguard, Nebuzaradan, in 607 BC. They refuse to believe what the Bible clearly teaches as having occurred after Nebuchadnezzar's third siege on Jerusalem when the prophet Jeremiah and his secretary Baruch were permitted to remain with the poor in Judah (Jeremiah 40:1-5) under the provisional government of Gedaliah, who had been appointed governor by Nebuchadnezzar, in the fifth lunar month of Ab, just two months before God's prophecy regarding the 70-year desolation of Judah actually underwent fulfillment. Two months!

    During these two months, Gedaliah was assassinated, so that the men that were left over in the province of Judah were now in fear of Babylon and eventually decided to flee the land of Judah to go to Egypt, dragging Jeremiah and his secretary with them. This last occurred during the seventh lunar month of Tishri, as the festival of ingathering had approached, but there was no longer a temple in Jerusalem, and now there were no people in the land nor any domestic animal. The "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy had now begun! (Daniel 4:25)

    Many people get this date wrong, not necessarily because they want Jehovah's Witnesses to be wrong about the year 607 BC (although some do!), but because they think for some reason unbeknownst to me that the Jewish prophet Jeremiah was in Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem for the third time and dethroned Zedekiah in 608 BC, at which time Nebuchadnezzar appointed Gedaliah in Judah as governor, who only two months later was assassinated by Judean military chiefs, but he wasn't! Jeremiah was in Egypt, and not in Jerusalem, since Gedaliah's assassination, which was the second time Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem in 618 BC, at which time he has taken Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim's son, captive to Babylon. Now the first time that Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem was in 620 BC when Jehoiakim was king of Judah.

    @djeggnog

    Mad Dawg posted Fri, 06 May 2011 23:02:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

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    DJ said:

    The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, but Jewish servitude didn't begin until Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year in 618 BC. (Jeremiah 25:11)

    Here is what the verse says:

    Jer 25:11And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

    I have some questions:

    Where in the verse you provided does it say "Nebuchadnezzar"?

    Do you realize that Nebby wasn't the only king of Babylon?

    How do you know that Nebby's 7th regnal year was 618?

    F AnnOMaly posted Fri, 06 May 2011 23:31:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

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    What does the bible actually say...?

    The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar

    Nope, the Bible doesn't actually say that. Anyway, King Neb didn't reign 70 years.

    The 587 BC advocates cannot reconcile 587 BC with 539 BC, because it isn't possible to find 70 years between 587 BC and 539 BC, for one would be 22 years shy of fulfilling those 70 years that God declared the land must lay desolate to pay off its sabbaths.

    God didn't declare the land must lay desolate for 70 years to pay off its sabbaths. The Bible doesn't actually say that either.

    ... and in his fourth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king; this was during Jehoiakim's seventh year

    The Bible actually indicates Jehoiakim was vassal before that, i.e. in his third year (Dan. 1:1,2).

    During these two months, Gedaliah was assassinated, so that the men that were left over in the province of Judah were now in fear of Babylon and eventually decided to flee the land of Judah to go to Egypt, dragging Jeremiah and his secretary with them. This last occurred during the seventh lunar month of Tishri, as the festival of ingathering had approached, but there was no longer a temple in Jerusalem, and now there were no people in the land nor any domestic animal. The "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy had now begun! (Daniel 4:25)

    The Bible actually says there were inhabitants living in Jerusalem's ruins after that time (Ezek. 33:21-24).

    Many people get this date wrong, not necessarily because they want Jehovah's Witnesses to be wrong about the year 607 BC (although some do!), but because they think for some reason unbeknownst to me that the Jewish prophet Jeremiah was in Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem for the third time and dethroned Zedekiah in 608 BC, at which time Nebuchadnezzar appointed Gedaliah in Judah as governor, who only two months later was assassinated by Judean military chiefs, but he wasn't! Jeremiah was in Egypt, and not in Jerusalem, since Gedaliah's assassination, which was the second time Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem in 618 BC, at which time he has taken Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim's son, captive to Babylon. Now the first time that Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem was in 620 BC when Jehoiakim was king of Judah.

    This isn't even wrong. This is just gobble-de-gook. (Have you been brainstorming with Larsinger?)

    Larsinger58 posted Fri, 06 May 2011 23:40:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

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    Interestsing topic, but, just using the Bible, these scriptures independently introduce a 70-year period from the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, until the 1st of Cyrus:

    Jeremiah 44:14 And there will come to be no escapee or survivor for the remnant of Judah who are entering in to reside there as aliens, in the land of Egypt, even to return to the land of Judah to which they are lifting up their soul[ful desire] to return in order to dwell; for they will not return, except some escaped ones.’”

    Jeremiah 44: 28 And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them.”’

    2 Chronicles 36: 20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."

    DISCUSSION: This is why the discussion by Olof Jonsson regarding the 70 years of servitude is irrelevant to whether or not the land was desolated for 70 years. That's because as you note in the above 2 quotes, a few of the people who would not be killed by Nebuchadnezzar who had ran down to Egypt, would return to Judea. These last remaining ones were deported to Babylon in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. But it is these specific ones who were to be in servitude to Babylon for precisely 70 years. Further, it is in direct correlation with the 70 years of paying back the sabbaths, whch were a period of 70 years, spread out over all the 12 tribes.

    That is, 390 years of error for the 10 tribes is 39 years each.

    Judah ruled slightl longer, so they were assigned 40 years.

    390 + 40 is 430 years.

    This was the unfaithful years of not keeping the agricultural sabbaths. The agri-sabbaths were two: One every 7 years and one every 50 years. So note what happens when we divide 430 years of failed sabbaths by these two agri-sabbaths:

    430/7 = 61.4

    430/50 = 8.6

    TOTAL 70.0

    Thus we do have a Biblical reference to explain why the land must be desolated for 70 years. Since Jeremiah 44:14 and 28 places people in the land right up until the last deportation in year 23 (Jer. 52:30), the land was still being worked or producing up until that time and thus was not considered to be resting. So until the last official Jews were actually removed off the land, the 70 years of keeping sabbath could not take place. Thus the 70 years of desolation of the land and the 70 years of exile are the same 70-year peeriod, but only applies to those of the very last deportation.

    Now, Olof Jonsson might have done a bang-up good job of proving or asserting that the nations were under Babylonian rule for 70 years. But Jeremiah's prophecy about 70 years is linked with the last deportation, the servitude of these specific people who were deported at the last deportation who were from Egypt.

    Now everybody cannot serve exactly 70 years. Only one group can serve that long. Turns out, 70 years is the minimum period of servitude. Others deported in the accession year of Neb2 (Daniel, et al), the 7th year (Ezekiel, et al), the 8th year (King Jehoiachin, et al), the 9th and 11th years, all served longer than 70 years. The last deportation was year 23, so Daniel who was deportged in the accession year of Neb2 would have served 24 years longer than 70 years, some 94 years! If he were ten years old when he was deported, he would have left Babylon at age 104. He was still alive in year 3 of Cyrus, so he would have been about 107. He was very old and feeble at the time.

    Furthermore, the Jews were still in exile during the entire 6-year rule of Darius the Mede. Zechariah 1 tells us that 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem expired in the 2nd year of Darius the Mede, while the Jews were still in exile. As we recall, Daniel was still in the service of Babylon during the time of Darius the Mede when he was thrown into the lion's den.

    Zechariah 7, tells us that 70 years after the mourning of Gedeliah in the 7th month expired in the 4th year of Darius the Mede while the Jews were still in exile, wondering when God would show mercy to Jerusalem and the cities of Judea, meaning when would they be allowed to be inhabited again. Gedeliah was killed a year after the fall of Jerusalem in the 7th month. Word of this reached Babylon by the next year when they began to fast and mourn in honor of his death. So the mourning began 2 years after the fall of Jerusalem. That is why 70 years following the mourning of Gedeliah in the 7th month in year 4 of Darius, is 2 years after 70 years expires in year 2 of Darius. So just using the Bible we can confirm two things:

    1) That 70 year after the fall of Jerusalem does not end the 70 years of Jeremiah's prophecy.

    2) That Dariuis the Mede must have ruled for 6 years before Cyrus came to the throne.

    The above simply reflects that the time period from the fall of Jerusalem to the 1st of Cyrus is a period of 74 years. Jerusalem fell in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. Again, as Zech 1 points out, 70 years from the "denunciation" of Jerusalem and the cities of Judea expired in the 2nd year of Darius. The mourning for Gedaliah began 2 years later and 70 years expired in the 4th of Darius. Even so, since the 70 years of servitude of those last deported in year 23 was not yet up and would not expire for another 2 years, the Jews were still in exile during this time and would only come out of exile when Cyrus began to rule. That is why it is very important to understand why the Bible is quite specific to call Darius, Darius the MEDE, and Cyrus, Cyrus the PERSIAN. That is because the end of the Babylonian Empire would end when Cyrus took over the entire Medo-Persian Empire, which was after a 6-year rule first by Darius the Mede. Thus Darius the Mede is not considered to be the "royalty of Persia" but the royalty of the Medes. That's why 2 Chronicles 36 ends the 70 years when the "royalty of PERSIA begins to rule." Of course, Darius the Mede, was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar. The Medes and the Babylonians were once close allies and there was a state marriage between the Medes and the Babylonians. The father of Darius the Mede, Cyaxares, married the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar.

    So, in effect, the Babylonians were quite cool to have Darius the Mede rule over them since he was a legitimate Bablonian king himself, a royal descendant of Nebuchadnezzar II.

    In addition, the #1 king of Babylon, Nabonidus, was not killed when Belshazzar was killed. Apparently, he remained at-large and thus still the official ruler of Babylon, until Darius the Mede abdicated to Cyrus, at which time Nabonidus was placed under house arrest, officially ending the Neo-Babylonian kingdom.

    CHRONOLOGY, BIBLE VS SECULAR: Now the above means that the NB records and the Biblical records are in conflict. It means the Bible claims the NB Period is some 25-26 years longer than the secular records. So one of these histories was revised. But as soon as we start looking at the authenticity of the Babylonian historical records, we find all their palace records, the Nabonicus Chronicle, Cyrus Cylinder, and Babylonian Chronicle are all "copies" from the period of Darius II or later. So that's the end of that competition. A "copied" record is automatically presumed to be a revised document, so from this we learn the Persians revised the NB records, removing some 26 years from the NB kinglist. The Bible reflects the true original chronology. Of course, this leads to the obvious suspicion that the Persian Period was expanded by these removed years.

    This affects Olof Jonsson's conclusions because he supports the 539 BCE chronology for the fall of Babylon as well as the 5878 BCE chronology for the fall of Jerusalem. Neither of these dates can be considered credible compared to the Biblical record since they would reflect adjustments made during the Persian Period. In addition, since 539 BCE is part of this adjustment, 607 BCE which is based on the 539 BCE dating, considered a "pivotal date" by the WTS, would be incorrect as well. Of course, 607 BCE would have dated, per the Bible, the year of the last deportation in year 23 and not the last deportation in year 18 or 19. So 607 BCE is a totally non credible date. But so is 587 BCE or 539 BCE per Biblical dating.

    Strict Biblical chronology requires the 1st of Cyrus to fall in 455 BCE. That means the last deportation must be dated to 525 BCE, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. Four years earlier would be the true date for the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE.

    That is, if you want to follow the Bible.

    Just in passing, C.O. Jonsson used to consider the VAT4956 as the most important ancient text for dating the NB Period. It does, indeed, date year 37 to 568 BCE for most references. But in Lines 3 and 14, there is a match for 511 BCE lunar positions. This is critical in the context of 455 BCE, since if we use 455 BCE to date year 23 of Neb2 to 525 BCE, then year 37 falls in 511 BCE. Thus this can hardly be considered a coincidence. Thus it appears the VAT4956 was created in a diary form to look like a politically correct document confirming the revised chronology. But instead it was used to hide secret lunar positions from the original year 37 of Neb2 in 511 BCE. Making that assessment or presumption or conspiracy theory, whatever, still gives us only one alternative dating for the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, with his 23rd year falling in 525 BCE, which is the precise year we get when the 1st of Cyrus falls in 455 BCE and the last deportation falls 70 years earlier.

    So, the 70-year issue has long been corrected at this point, along with the phony NB years revised by the Persians.

    The reason why modern scholars don't acknowledge the revisions by the Persians is because the ancient timeline is a modern conspiracy. That is, bythe time of Christ, Jews were revising their records to conform with the revised timeline, including the Book of Esther. Exposing the true timeline would prove that Jesus Christ is the true messiah, arriving 483 years after the return from Babylon in 455 BCE. Jews, who need to deny Christ, are thus not served by this truth and this represents a conflict of interest for them. So Jewish scholars would not be expected to betray their faith by acknowledging anything but the false timeline. In that context, we find it interesting that Hermann Hunger, who translates the VAT4956 got caught lying about several lines in the VAT4956. If he understood from Jewish history that the current timeline was incorrect (i.e. Jews have always noted the Persian Period was too long and with too many kings), and thus the VAT4956 represented the revised timeline and not the true timeline, he might have considered it a betrayal to draw any real attention to this text being fraudulent. Line 18 of the text would have created suspicion if correctly translated. But that's another conspiracy theory. This "error" has been pointed out to him and he has apologized for it, however, claims he "does not remember" WHY he inserted the false information.

    So with scholars lying and being deceptive about rare historical evidence supporting the true timeline, it is understandable why these revisions have not been corrected. But at this point, we certainly cannot presume the original timeline is not actually known by some scholars, but those scholars seem to consistently feel the need to cover this up.

    But at least we know the Biblical truth about this. The Bible dates the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE. The 70 years of desolation was from 525 BCE to 455 BCE. You don't have to accept this as correct, if you trust secular history more, but that is what the Bible's timeline must remain, regardless.

    LS

    F AnnOMaly posted Fri, 06 May 2011 23:43:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

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    Speak of the devil. LOL

    (Holy smoke, Lars! There are no flies on you!)

    (Hey, and another thing. I thought you going to drop that 'Hunger lied about line 18' idiocy.)

    Larsinger58 posted Fri, 06 May 2011 23:58:00 GMT(5/6/2011)

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    Just for the record, in case there is a question of how to interpret this, I think what the Jews themselves think about the 70 years is pertinent. In this case we can go to Josephus who states in Ant. 11.1.1

    1. IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.

    This is clearly a paraphase of 2 Chronicles 36. Here Josephus is associating the 70 years of servitude with "these poor people" and the removal off the land being the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar.

    So for whatever we later interpreters of Scriptures may decide upon, I think we need to include the official Jewish interpretation while we're at it, which is the 70 years began with the last deportation. Further, Josephus specifically notes the final deportation from the land in year 23, but not from Judea but Egypt! So it is clear the Jews understand those who served the last 70 years were those who were deported out of Egypt in year 23:

    Antiquities 10.9.7

    "[in] the twenty-third of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon. And such was the end of the nation of the Hebrews.."

    Of course, before we attack the reliability of Josephus, we must first ask if this specific historical reference is in agreement with the Bible. The answer is YES, it is! Because the Bible also notes that those last deported would serve for 70 years and those last deported were the "ones remaining from the sword" meaning those who came back from Egypt. So apparently in year 23 these last Jews, including Jeremiah and Baruck, obviously were deported back to Babylon tha same year per Josephus, but since Judea is on the way to Babylon, they did return there as per Jeremiah 44:14,28. So Josephus is in compelte harmony with the Bible; at least in this case.

    Since this requires the NB to be some 26 years longer than the current popular NB Period, which includes the 539 BCE dating for the fall of Babylon, any applications to the 70 years that uses the non-Biblical timeline would be irrelevant. The Bible's "absolute chronology" dates the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE rather than 537 BCE. The Bible's "relative chronology" introduces a 70-year period from the 1st of Cyrus back to the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. The VAT4956 can be used to confirm this as the original NB timeline, based on "errors" in Lines 3 and 14. That is, after you get past the deception of Hermann Hunger's translation in lines 18, which in turn affects the applications in Line 3 and 14. Herman Hunger publicly admitted that he made an error in Line 18, so there is no problem correcting this text.

    LS

    Witness My Fury posted Sat, 07 May 2011 01:24:00 GMT(5/7/2011)

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    Eggnog, the prophesy says they would serve neb his son and his grandson. The total reign length of neb and co until cyrus is 66 years if i remember right, thats without factoring Jerusalems destruction in his 18/19th year.

    So unless you're hiding some unseen babylonian tablets in your knickers that allow for any other consideration then there isnt even 70 years to play with in total let alone nearer 90 which would be required for a 70 period after Jerusalems destruction.

    djeggnog posted Mon, 09 May 2011 08:45:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

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    Joined 6/15/2010

    @djeggnog wrote:

    The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, but [since Jehoiachin was appointed as a vassal king for Babylon during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year until his vassalage ended in 617 BC, Jewish servitude didn't begin until 617 BC]. (Jeremiah 25:11) More importantly though, it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year in 607 BC when Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah, who had fled Jerusalem, was overtaken at Jericho, blinded and then led captive to Babylon.

    @Mad Dawg wrote:

    Here is what the verse says:

    Jer 25:11And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

    If you would not interpret Jeremiah 25:11 to make this verse say something it really doesn't say -- instead of substituting the words "the Jews" in place of the words "these nations" -- then it seems to me that would not have a basis for concluding, as you do here, that this verse is referring to 70 years of "Jewish servitude." The servitude of "these nations" in the Syria-Palestine region began in 618 BC, but "the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon" by the Jews during which "the land [would pay] off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years" began -- and now I refer specifically to when "Jewish servitude" had been foretold by Jeremiah to begin -- in 607 BC. (Jeremiah 29:10; 2 Chronicles 36:21)

    I have some questions:

    Where in the verse you provided does it say "Nebuchadnezzar"?

    Jeremiah 25:11 doesn't specifically say "Nebuchadnezzar," but refers to how the nations would "have to serve the king of Babylon" for 70 years.

    Do you realize that Nebby wasn't the only king of Babylon?

    Yes, but Jeremiah's prophecy doesn't specifically refer to King Nebuchadnezzar, but makes reference to "the king of Babylon," so my hope is that you are not here asserting that Jeremiah's prophecy is false because Nebuchadnezzar isn't specifically named in it. In the grand scheme of things, what difference does it make who it was that happened to king in Babylon over this 70-year period when it was God's will that the Jews spent 70 years in Babylon while the land paid off its sabbaths?

    How do you know that Nebby's 7th regnal year was 618 [BC]?

    Actually, I don't know 618 BC to be Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year; this was a typo and I apologize. This is what I should have written: "The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, but since Jehoiachin was appointed as a vassal king for Babylon during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year until his vassalage ended in 617 BC, Jewish servitude didn't begin until 617 BC. (Jeremiah 25:11)" But this is why I believe "Nebby's" seventh regnal year to have been 617 BC:

    There is a tablet known as the "Nabunaid Chronicle" that gives the date for the fall of Babylon as being October 12/13, 539 BC (Julian), October 6/7, 539 BC (Gregorian), and it was some 16 days after Babylon's fall to the Medes and Persians that Cyrus entered through Babylon now-breached walls. Cyrus' first regnal year ran between March 17/18, 538 BC and March 4/5 537 BC, and it was during this first regnal year that Cyrus issued a decree that permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem in order to rebuild the temple. Thus, when counting back the 70 years indicated by Jeremiah at 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 in which Jerusalem lie desolate, one arrives at the year 607 BC.

    At 2 Kings 25:8, we are informed that it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 19th accession year, that is to say, his 18th regnal year, which would have been in the year 607 BC, that Jerusalem was destroyed and left desolate by Babylonian forces in order to fulfill "the devastations of Jerusalem" and the land of Judah "until the land had paid off its sabbaths ... seventy years." (Daniel 9:2; 2 Chronicles 36:21) This would mean that Nebuchadnezzar's 7th regnal year would be 617 BC , there being 11 years separating Nebuchadnezzar's 7th regnal year from his 18th regnal year.

    A cuneiform inscription in the Babylonian Chronicle states that it was "in the seventh year, the month of Kislev, [that the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar)] mustered his troops, marched to Hatti-land, and encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month of Adar he seized the city and captured [the king of Judah (Jehoiachin)]. He appointed there a king of his own choice, received its heavy tribute and sent (them) to Babylon."

    At Jeremiah 46:2, we learn that it was during the fourth year of the reign of King Jehoiakim's reign that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar), was victorious over the king of Egypt, Pharaoh Necho; this was in the year 625 BC.

    The next year, in 624 BC, Nebuchadnezzar officially ascended to the throne following his father's death, Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, which was his second accession year, and in his fifth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king; this was during Jehoiakim's eighth year in 620 BC. (2 Kings 24:1) However, Jehoiakim's rebellion resulted in both Jerusalem being besieged by Babylon and in Jehoiakim's death in 618 BC, so that his son, Jehoiachin, then became Babylon's vassal king during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year until Jehoiachin's vassalage ended after about three months in 617 BC. (2 Kings 24:11, 12)

    Many people get this year wrong, not necessarily because they want Jehovah's Witnesses to be wrong about the year 607 BC (although some do!), but because they think for some reason unbeknownst to me that the Jewish prophet Jeremiah was in Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem for the third time and dethroned Zedekiah in 607 BC, at which time Nebuchadnezzar had appointed Gedaliah in Judah as governor in Ab, "the fifth month" (2 Kings 25:22; Jeremiah 52:12-14), who only two months later was assassinated by Judean military chiefs, but Jeremiah had been in Egypt, and not in Jerusalem, since Gedaliah's assassination in Tishri, "the seventh month." (2 Kings 25:25)

    Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem in 617 BC, which marked the second time, at which time he has taken captive Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim's son, to Babylon. Now the first time that Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem was in 620 BC during Jehoiakim's third year of his vassal kingship to Babylon over Judah. (Daniel 1:1)

    It was then that Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoichin's uncle Mattaniah his vassal king, changing his name of Zedekiah. However, it was during the ninth year of Zedekiah's reign in 609 BC, Nebuchadnezzar's 16th regnal year, that Zedekiah rebelled against Babylon and attempted to ally Judah with Egypt against Babylon, so that the siege against Judah was momentarily halted due to the report regarding Egypt. (Jeremiah 37:5).

    But in 607 BC, during Zedekiah's 11th year, Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, his 19th accession year, Jerusalem was again besieged by Babylon, Jerusalem's wall was successfully breached, and Zedekiah's sons were all slaughtered as Zedekiah watched after which he himself was blinded, bound and led prisoner to Babylon where he died. (2 Kings 25:1, 2, 8-10)

    Jeremiah 52:28-30 provides a list of the Jews that were taken into exile in Babylon: In 617 BC, during the 7th regnal year of Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar), 3,023; in 607 BC during his 18th regnal year, 832 "from Jerusalem"; in 602 BC during his 23rd regnal year by Nebuzaradan, the chief of the bodyguard, 745; so that the total number of Jews brought into exile came to be 4,600.

    Evil-merodach went on to succeed Nebuchadnezzar to the throne in 581 BC. In the year of his becoming king, Evil-merodach released Jehoiachin the king of Judah from the house of detention during the 37th year of Jehoiachin’s exile in Babylon. Evil-merodach granted him a position of favor above all the other kings who were in captivity in Babylon. (2 Kings 25:27-30; Jeremiah 52:31-34)

    According to the Encyclopedia Americana, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar) was the king of Babylon from 625/624 BC for 43 years, and was succeeded by his oldest son, Evil-Merodach, as king of Babylon from 581 BC for two years. Evil-Merodach was assassinated by Neriglissar, his brother-in-law, who succeeded him as king of Babylon from 579 BC for four years, when he died as his son Labashi-Marduk succeeded him as king of Babylon in 575 BC for three months when he was assassinated. Nabonidus, who, like Neriglissar, was one of Nebuchadnezzar's sons-in-law, became the king of Babylon after Labashi-Marduk's assassination in 575/574 BC for 35 years along with his son Belshazzar, the crown prince, who as coregent in Babylon was also viewed as king, while Nabonidus primarily lived in Arabia. Cyrus overthrow of Babylon in 539 BC is what brought the Babylonian Dynasty to an end.

    In his Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, chap. 9, par. 7, Josephus indicates that it was in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year, after Gedaliah's assassination, when ""all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years."

    The cuneiform tablet entitled "Strassmaier, Cyrus No. 11" mentions Cyrus' first regnal year. Cyrus first regnal year is calculated as beginning on March 17/18, 538 BC and ending on March 4/5, 537 BC, meaning that Cyrus' second regnal year began on March 5/6, 537 BC, so that Cyrus' decree must have issued before March 5/6, 537 BC, either late in the year 538 BC or early in 537 BC. It was Cyrus' first regnal year in which he issued his decree to permit the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. (Ezra 1:1)

    @Witness My Fury wrote:

    What does the bible actually say...?

    @djeggnog wrote:

    The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, but Jewish servitude didn't begin until Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year in 618 BC. (Jeremiah 25:11) More importantly though, it was during Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year in 607 BC when Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah, who had fled Jerusalem, was overtaken at Jericho, blinded and then led captive to Babylon.

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    Nope, the Bible doesn't actually say that. Anyway, King Neb didn't reign 70 years.

    You're right; Jeremiah 25:11 doesn't specifically say "Nebuchadnezzar," but refers to how the nations would "have to serve the king of Babylon" for 70 years.

    @djeggnog wrote:

    The 587 BC advocates cannot reconcile 587 BC with 539 BC, because it isn't possible to find 70 years between 587 BC and 539 BC, for one would be 22 years shy of fulfilling those 70 years that God declared the land must lay desolate to pay off its sabbaths.

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    God didn't declare the land must lay desolate for 70 years to pay off its sabbaths. The Bible doesn't actually say that either.

    Sure it does.

    2 Chronicles 36:20-23:

    "Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    @djeggnog wrote:

    The next year, in 624 BC, Nebuchadnezzar officially ascended to the throne following his father's death, Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, which was his second accession year, and in his fourth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king; this was during Jehoiakim's [eighth] year in 620 BC. However, Jehoiakim's rebellion resulted in Jerusalem being besieged by Babylon and in Jehoiakim's death in 618 BC, so that his son, Jehoiachin, became Babylon's vassal king during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year until Jehoiachin's vassalage ended after about three months in Nisan 617 BC.

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    The Bible actually indicates Jehoiakim was vassal before that, i.e. in his third year (Dan. 1:1,2).

    Yes, he was, but not for Babylon, for it was during the eighth year of his reign as king of Judah that he became Babylon's vassal king. Maybe you assumed something that Daniel did not mean when he referred to Jehoiakim's "third year" at Daniel 1:1, 2, I don't know, but while Jehoiakim had been enthroned for a total of 11 years, Jehoiakim had been a vassal king for Egypt at the time Nebuchadnezzar had defeated Pharaoh Necho in 625 BC. (Jeremiah 46:2) Jehoiakim became a vassal king for Babylon and then went on to revolt against Babylon in 620 BC after a three-year vassalage, which is to what "in the third year of his kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah" refers at Daniel 1:1.

    @djeggnog wrote:

    During these two months, Gedaliah was assassinated, so that the men that were left over in the province of Judah were now in fear of Babylon and eventually decided to flee the land of Judah to go to Egypt, dragging Jeremiah and his secretary with them. This last occurred during the seventh lunar month of Tishri, as the festival of ingathering had approached, but there was no longer a temple in Jerusalem, and now there were no people in the land nor any domestic animal. The "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy had now begun! (Daniel 4:25)

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    The Bible actually says there were inhabitants living in Jerusalem's ruins after that time (Ezek. 33:21-24).

    No, it doesn't. You seem to be arguing just to be arguing with me, for none of the arguments you make here have any merit. Here's what the Bible does say about the desolated state of Jerusalem and the land of Judah:

    Jeremiah 33:10:

    "'This is what Jehovah has said, ‘In this place that you people will be saying is waste without man and without domestic animal, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolated without man and without inhabitant and without domestic animal....''

    2 Chronicles 36:20, 21:

    Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    @djeggnog wrote:

    Many people get this year wrong, not necessarily because they want Jehovah's Witnesses to be wrong about the year 607 BC (although some do!), but because they think for some reason unbeknownst to me that the Jewish prophet Jeremiah was in Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem for the third time and dethroned Zedekiah in 607 BC, at which time Nebuchadnezzar had appointed Gedaliah in Judah as governor in Ab, "the fifth month" (2 Kings 25:22; Jeremiah 52:12-14), who only two months later was assassinated by Judean military chiefs, but Jeremiah had been in Egypt, and not in Jerusalem, since Gedaliah's assassination in Tishri, "the seventh month." (2 Kings 25:25) Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem in 617 BC, which marked the second time, at which time he has taken captive Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim's son, to Babylon. Now the first time that Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem was in 620 BC during Jehoiakim's third year of his vassal kingship to Babylon over Judah.

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    This isn't even wrong. This is just gobble-de-gook. (Have you been brainstorming with Larsinger?)

    You are right. I've both proofread and corrected those typos in this message that made what I had written in my previous message gobbledygook.

    @Witness My Fury:

    Eggnog, the prophesy says they would serve neb his son and his grandson.

    No, it doesn't. Jeremiah 25:11 says:

    "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

    There were more than just Nebuchadnezzar, his son, Evil-Merodach, and his grandson, Belshazzar, that ruled as kings in Babylon. The prophecy says "shall serve the king of Babylon." What's your point?

    The total reign length of neb and co until cyrus is 66 years if i remember right, thats without factoring Jerusalems destruction in his 18/19th year.

    According to the Encyclopedia Americana, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar) was the king of Babylon from 625/624 BC for 43 years, and was succeeded by his oldest son, Evil-Merodach, as king of Babylon from 581 BC for two years. Evil-Merodach was assassinated by Neriglissar, his brother-in-law, who succeeded him as king of Babylon from 579 BC for four years, when he died as his son Labashi-Marduk succeeded him as king of Babylon in 575 BC for three months when he was assassinated. Nabonidus, who, like Neriglissar, was one of Nebuchadnezzar's sons-in-law, became the king of Babylon after Labashi-Marduk's assassination in 575/574 BC for 35 years along with his son Belshazzar, the crown prince, who as coregent in Babylon was also viewed as king, while Nabonidus primarily lived in Arabia. Cyrus overthrow of Babylon in 539 BC is what brought the Babylonian Dynasty to an end.

    So unless you're hiding some unseen babylonian tablets in your knickers that allow for any other consideration then there isnt even 70 years to play with in total let alone nearer 90 which would be required for a 70 period after Jerusalems destruction.

    From Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year in 625 BC to Nabonidus/Belshazzar in 539 BC, there are 86 years, and counting from Nebuchadnezzar's 18th regnal year in 607 BC to Nabonidus/Belshazzar in 539 BC, there are 68 years. When Cyrus issued a decree during his first regnal year in 538 BC to permit the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple there, the Jews had arrived there in 537 BC and had begun offering sacrifices at the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in Tishri, "the seventh month." (Ezra 1:1-4; 3:1-6)

    While you may think you do, I submit that you really do not know what Scripture says on these things; you merely repeat things here that you have may heard others say and/or have read things in the Bible without any appreciation for the substance of what it was you were reading. I have here used the Bible to prove that the year 607 BC is rock solid and isn't wrong.

    @djeggnog

    F AnnOMaly posted Mon, 09 May 2011 11:05:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 1744 of 4331
    Joined 8/11/2003

    Yes, he was, but not for Babylon, for it was during the eighth year of his reign as king of Judah that he became Babylon's vassal king.

    Where in the Bible do you get that Jehoiakim became Babylon's vassal in his 8th year?

    Maybe you assumed something that Daniel did not mean when he referred to Jehoiakim's "third year" at Daniel 1:1, 2

    I assumed that when Daniel said "third year of the kingship of of Jehoiakim", he meant exactly that.

    No, it doesn't. You seem to be arguing just to be arguing with me, for none of the arguments you make here have any merit.

    2 Chron. 36:20,21 does nothing to disprove my specific objection, and Jer. 33:10 is pre-destruction anyway. Ezek. 33:21-24 is post-destruction - even post-Gedaliah-assassination! What does Ezek. 33:21-24 say? If you read it in its context, you'll see that my argument does indeed have merit and can't be dismissed so easily.

    I've both proofread and corrected those typos in this message that made what I had written in my previous message gobbledygook.

    The typos weren't the problem. I'm afraid it's still scrambled nonsense. 'Most people get the year wrong because they think Jeremiah was in Babylon'? What?! And out of curiosity, can you explain how Jehoiakim came to be Nebuchadnezzar's vassal BEFORE he invaded the land and besieged Jerusalem for the first time?

    [Response to Witness My Fury] According to the Encyclopedia Americana, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar) was the king of Babylon from 625/624 BC for 43 years, and was succeeded by his oldest son, Evil-Merodach, as king of Babylon from 581 BC for two years. Evil-Merodach was assassinated by Neriglissar, his brother-in-law, who succeeded him as king of Babylon from 579 BC for four years, when he died as his son Labashi-Marduk succeeded him as king of Babylon in 575 BC for three months when he was assassinated. ...

    What a whopper! The Encyclopedia Americana does NOT give those regnal dates. Bad eggnog!

    See photo here - http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/194806/1/Library-Visit-2-607-BCE-vs-587-BCE-With-Pictures

    F AnnOMaly posted Mon, 09 May 2011 14:18:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 1745 of 4331
    Joined 8/11/2003

    I messed up the link above. Try this instead - http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/194806/1/Library-Visit-2-607-BCE-vs-587-BCE-With-Pictures

    And I neglected to respond to this:

    [Ann formerly] God didn't declare the land must lay desolate for 70 years to pay off its sabbaths. The Bible doesn't actually say that either.

    [djeggnog] Sure it does.

    2 Chronicles 36:20-23:

    "Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; to fulfill Jehovah's word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    Uh uh. The Chronicler specifically cites Jeremiah's prophecy and alludes to another one in Leviticus. These three passages have to harmonize. Where did Jeremiah ever declare the land would lie desolate for a period of 70 years? Where does the book of Leviticus declare how long the land would pay off its sabbaths? Chapter and verse please.

    djeggnog posted Mon, 09 May 2011 16:00:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 377 of 634
    Joined 6/15/2010

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    The Bible actually indicates Jehoiakim was vassal before that, i.e. in his third year (Dan. 1:1,2).

    @djeggnog wrote:

    Yes, he was, but not for Babylon, for it was during the eighth year of his reign as king of Judah that he became Babylon's vassal king. Maybe you assumed something that Daniel did not mean when he referred to Jehoiakim's "third year" at Daniel 1:1, 2, I don't know, but while Jehoiakim had been enthroned for a total of 11 years, Jehoiakim had been a vassal king for Egypt at the time Nebuchadnezzar had defeated Pharaoh Necho in 625 BC. (Jeremiah 46:2) Jehoiakim became a vassal king for Babylon and then went on to revolt against Babylon in 620 BC after a three-year vassalage, which is to what "in the third year of his kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah" refers at Daniel 1:1.

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    Where in the Bible do you get that Jehoiakim became Babylon's vassal in his 8th year?

    2 Kings 24:12:

    "At length Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he with his mother and his servants and his princes and his court officials; and the king of Babylon got to take him in the eighth year of his being king."

    You know what, @AnnOMaly? Your asking me this particular question makes it rather difficult for me to take what you are now saying seriously. Like I said in my previous message, I believe you are arguing with me just because you can do so. In this thread, my intent was to use the Bible "(and some common sense)" to prove that 607 BC is the year when Jerusalem and the land of Judah became desolate, just as the prophet Jeremiah prophesied at , and I believe I had done just that. What you're doing now is rather lame and I believe it is because you have your mind already made up as to the Bible being wrong, and I'm willing to accept this about you.

    I assumed that when Daniel said "third year of the kingship of of Jehoiakim", he meant exactly that.

    So you're being tough now! You're not tough! What you are is wrong.

    2 Chron. 36:20,21 does nothing to disprove my specific objection, and Jer. 33:10 is pre-destruction anyway. Ezek. 33:21-24 is post-destruction - even post-Gedaliah-assassination! What does Ezek. 33:21-24 say? If you read it in its context, you'll see that my argument does indeed have merit and can't be dismissed so easily.

    Now you're repeating yourself after I've already responded to this objection of yours, so you're being insulting, too! I'm going to repeat what it was you stated in your previous message and how I responded to it:

    @djeggnog wrote:

    During these two months, Gedaliah was assassinated, so that the men that were left over in the province of Judah were now in fear of Babylon and eventually decided to flee the land of Judah to go to Egypt, dragging Jeremiah and his secretary with them. This last occurred during the seventh lunar month of Tishri, as the festival of ingathering had approached, but there was no longer a temple in Jerusalem, and now there were no people in the land nor any domestic animal. The "seven times" of Daniel's prophecy had now begun! (Daniel 4:25)

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    The Bible actually says there were inhabitants living in Jerusalem's ruins after that time (Ezek. 33:21-24).

    @djeggnog wrote:

    No, it doesn't. You seem to be arguing just to be arguing with me, for none of the arguments you make here have any merit. Here's what the Bible does say about the desolated state of Jerusalem and the land of Judah:

    Jeremiah 33:10:

    "'This is what Jehovah has said, ‘In this place that you people will be saying is waste without man and without domestic animal, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolated without man and without inhabitant and without domestic animal....''

    2 Chronicles 36:20, 21:

    Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    @djeggnog wrote:

    I've both proofread and corrected those typos in this message that made what I had written in my previous message gobbledygook.

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    The typos weren't the problem. I'm afraid it's still scrambled nonsense. 'Most people get the year wrong because they think Jeremiah was in Babylon'? What?!

    Perhaps instead of "most people," I could have written "some people," but I do not think this would have been received any differently by you. You just want to argue with me, even though your arguments are without merit.

    And out of curiosity, can you explain how Jehoiakim came to be Nebuchadnezzar's vassal BEFORE he invaded the land and besieged Jerusalem for the first time?

    I'm done with this.

    @djeggnog

    F AnnOMaly posted Mon, 09 May 2011 16:22:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 1746 of 4331
    Joined 8/11/2003

    [Ann formerly] Where in the Bible do you get that Jehoiakim became Babylon's vassal in his 8th year?

    [eggnog] 2 Kings 24:12:

    "At length Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he with his mother and his servants and his princes and his court officials; and the king of Babylon got to take him in the eighth year of his being king."

    ROFL!

    A) You've referred me to a passage about Jehoiachin, not Jehoiakim.

    B) The "eighth year of his being king" refers to the "king of Babylon," ya doofus!

    In the face of being unable to rebut my arguments, the rest of your answer is just you hurling your toys out your playpen in temper. Hilarious!

    the prisoner No 6 posted Mon, 09 May 2011 16:51:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 13 of 41
    Joined 5/6/2011

    Eggy old chap its not a crime to hold your hands up, admit you were wrong, I have had to do this so many times since I arrived at this site, mostly no one but me was aware, sometimes here publicly.Initially when I first lurked here I kind of looked at your posts and hoped you would be able to rebut and defend theWTS I seceretly hoped you had the answers and i would not have to confront the inevitable fallout of having to face up to the fact I had been duped, and its not an easy place to be, but this is where we are

    PSacramento posted Mon, 09 May 2011 17:05:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 8131 of 11021
    Joined 6/22/2009

    607 has been beaten to death.

    It has been shown over and over and over to be wrong.

    It has been shown via the bible, via history, via astronomy, via archeology.

    Over and over.

    If any JW wants to still grasp at it because of 1914 then let them.

    Just one more man-made doctrine of theirs that shows them to NOT be preaching the Gospel of Christ.

    Mad Dawg posted Mon, 09 May 2011 18:35:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 1014 of 1003
    Joined 3/16/2009

    DJ said in his post 375:

    The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, but Jewish servitude didn't begin until Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year in 618 BC. (Jeremiah 25:11)

    DJ said in his post 378:

    Jeremiah 25:11 doesn't specifically say "Nebuchadnezzar," but refers to how the nations would "have to serve the king of Babylon" for 70 years.

    DJ says one paragraph later in post 378:

    This is what I should have written: "The Bible clearly does speak of 70 years of servitude to King Nebuchadnezzar, …"

    Then in the next paragraph of post 378…

    There is a tablet known as the "Nabunaid Chronicle" that gives the date for the fall of Babylon as being October 12/13, 539 BC…

    I have some questions here:

    Does the Bible speak clearly of the nations serving Nebby or not?

    · If yes, please show it clearly. There is nothing clear about the walls of text you post.

    Why are you referring to a Babylonian tablet to establish the date? You have said on other threads that you could establish the date using only the Bible.

    If the authority of the GB rests on them being "chosen" in 1919, which depends on the "prophecy" of 1914, which in turn rests solely on a Babylonian tablet; then doesn't that mean that your entire religion rests on Babylonian writings - not the Bible?

    Bear in mind that I don't question if Jeremiah's prophecy was fulfilled. I question if it were fulfilled in the manner that the GB says it was. Without the supposed "double fulfillment", which is not required by the text, then it doesn't matter if Jerusalem fell in 597, 617, or 627.

    No Room For George posted Mon, 09 May 2011 18:46:00 GMT(5/9/2011)

    Post 89 of 1758
    Joined 4/25/2011

    I'm done with this.

    @djeggnog

    Wow, Eggnog acknowledging something thats being beyond him. Now I know Harold Camping's calculations are accurate. 5/21, its a wrap!!!

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