Only the Governing Body is the FDS

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    Listener posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 08:32:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 262 of 1570
    Joined 9/26/2010

    I hadn't noticed this before but the Governing Body is actually saying that they only are the Faithful & Discreet Slave.

    Watchtower 2009 6/15 Para 18
    Similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class. They make up the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. These spirit-anointed men oversee the Kingdom work and the spiritual feeding program. As in the first century, though, the Governing Body does not consult with each individual member of the slave class before making decisions.

    The first sentence above states - 'a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class'....'the Governing Body'.

    This can only mean that the rest (or majority of anointed) DO NOT represent the Faithful & Discreet Slave.

    The definition of represent from the free dictionary includes

    5. To describe or put forward (a person or thing) as an embodiment of a specified quality.
    6.
    a. To serve as the official and authorized delegate or agent for.
    b. To act as a spokesperson for.
    7. To serve as an example of: The museum had several paintings representing the artist's early style.
    8. To be the equivalent of.

    The previous paragraph in the Watchtower gives their basis for making this claim.

    To illustrate: The Scriptures at times speak of “the congregation” as taking certain action in handling judicial matters. (Matt. 18:17) In real terms, though, it is only the elders who take this action in their capacity as representatives of the congregation. The elders do not contact all members of the congregation to ask their various opinions before they make a decision. Theocratically, they perform the role that they have been assigned; they act on behalf of the whole congregation.

    .Matt 18:17 says " If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector." The JWs must interpret this to mean that only the heads of the congregation would have been involved but don't actually say so. In the above quote they use the idea "In real terms" which is a bit obscure but could easily be viewed as - well they used the congregation back then but in reality today we would only use the elders of the congregation.

    There is so little basis, if any at all, to support their position of the Governing Body over anyone.

    Even if that parable of the FD & S was correctly interpreted as a prophecy it does not say there will be another class that will represent the FD & S .

    DagothUr posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:43:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 228 of 812
    Joined 11/1/2010

    In order to better understand this, we should make a political comparison. Let's say a group of men form the government of a nation and claim they are "the representatives of the people". The question is: how can the people control who is and who is not it's representatives? The answer is: through elections, in a democracy; and by no means in a totalitarian state. And since the leadership is not just one person, but a group, this form of totalitarian state is an "oligarchy". The people have no means of controlling the government and no power to change it. This is the GB: a group of men with absolute power; they govern as representatives of the F&D slave, but the slave class has absolutely no means to control them, neither to change them. A perfect oligarchy.

    Listener posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:57:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 264 of 1570
    Joined 9/26/2010

    I'm starting to get it now. So the question is

    Who appointed the Governing Body?

    I've read it a few times on this forum but didn't appreciate the intricies of this question and why it was an important one to ask any JW. They (the governing body) can only answer that question by admitting that they have appointed themselves. The only claim they are able to make is that the FDS was appointed by Jesus and the the overseers/elders are appointed by the FDS.

    There is no scripture that is able to support their own appointment.

    M Black Sheep posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:19:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 6161 of 10004
    Joined 8/8/2003
    Who appointed the Governing Body?

    JW answer: Jehovah. Jesus selected them in 1919 and Jehovah has used HS to make them conscript their members/successors since then.

    Once again, it is that selection in 1919 that is the support for their claim, so that is the doctrine they need to have to explain to you in great detail with full documentation.

    M moshe posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:29:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 5115 of 9085
    Joined 1/18/2005

    Hell, they don't consult with any members of a ficticious slave class.

    Similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.

    Legally, they never said the F&DS= GB, you can represent someone without being in the same group. JWs assume the GB members of the F&DS, but the WT, as far as I have seen, doesn't actually come out and say so. They let the JWs assume they are, without saying so in first person. You will never see one of the GB say, "I am one of the F&DS". Or see the WT attach the name of an individual person to that class.

    designs posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:18:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 3498 of 18881
    Joined 6/17/2009

    What they mean is- Don't write Letters to us with your ideas and don't spread your ideas at the KH or else......

    M sir82 posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:57:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 4895 of 9070
    Joined 5/17/2005
    You will never see one of the GB say, "I am one of the F&DS".

    True. However the typical JW response would be "See? That just proves how humble they are!"

    Ya just can't win.

    finallyfree! posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:12:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 230 of 390
    Joined 5/11/2010

    i thought the fds class were the annointed. arent the gb members all "annointed"?? this cult is so f'ing mixed up in its doctrines i dont think anyone actually know what they mean when they speak.

    designs posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:13:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 3501 of 18881
    Joined 6/17/2009

    At least with the Evangelicals they will get in your face and tell they are really really and truly truly BORN AGAIN. Sat through a tortuous Funeral Service for a good friend and the eulogists reminded us again and again that we wouldn't see our friend again unless we were BORN AGAIN.

    Lovely people, makes me want to join- Not.

    elderelite posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:16:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 975 of 3229
    Joined 6/18/2010

    i echo a question Mosche asked a few weeks ago.... "what does God need with a FDS class"? Isn't Christ the head of the congregation.... cant God handle things without a group of men in brooklyn to administer things...?

    designs posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:21:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 3502 of 18881
    Joined 6/17/2009

    elderlite-

    For some strange reason Jesus can't seem to drive a Baptist School Bus worth beans much less lead 7 million JWs.

    Very strange...

    miseryloveselders posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:25:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 1886 of 2662
    Joined 8/31/2009

    There's days I ponder what it would take for the average JW to see that the F&DS was simply a parabel and nothing more. There's times I get a headache trying to force myself to comform and simply accept this doctrine, but its impossible to accept. There's no concrete evidence to support the F&DS as being anything more than an illustration.

    designs posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:32:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 3503 of 18881
    Joined 6/17/2009

    misery-

    The problems start with the NT itself. Very few Denominations are willing to acknowledge the bi-polar nature of the two Christian Churches that are developing right before their eyes in the NT. If they can't or won't see that central problem don't expect anything other than hubris and excuses.

    Mad Sweeney posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:38:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 3764 of 6963
    Joined 11/2/2009

    The fact that the power-hungry a-hole side of Christianity seems to have won the power struggle doesn't help, either, designs.

    As for the F&DS scripture, it is significant that they ignore the part of the "prophecy" about the evil slave beating its fellow slaves. It throws a huge monkey wrench into their entire F&DS theology, so they conveniently ignore it.

    miseryloveselders posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:45:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 1887 of 2662
    Joined 8/31/2009

    misery-

    The problems start with the NT itself. Very few Denominations are willing to acknowledge the bi-polar nature of the two Christian Churches that are developing right before their eyes in the NT. If they can't or won't see that central problem don't expect anything other than hubris and excuses.

    Sighhh, you're right, I just have a hard time accepting that its a lost cause. It drives me absolutely bonkers that a person can't see the F&DS was simply a parabel, and the Other Sheep were the Gentiles. For the life of me, I just cannot fathom why a major schizm hasn't developed over these two simple illustrations. Its so simple that there's nothing to discuss about it, nothing to debate, it is what it is!!! Argghgh!!! I think to myself at times that, had I been familiar with the NT as a mature adult, and a couple JWs showed up at my door, and let just assume hypothetically speaking that I bit. Just assume that I bit long enough to entertain a bible study, and even attend meetings regularly. Eventually I'd be exposed to the F&DS doctrine, and I have a hard time believing that nobody in their right mind wouldn't question the lunacy of this doctrine. As a born-in during my teenage years I couldn't wrap my brain around this teaching. As an adult, I cannot wrap my head around it. The only difference now as an adult is when I try to accept this doctrine, my head starts to hurt. I know I'm not crazy, and I know there has to be other mature thinking Christians amongst the higher ups in this organization who have entertained themselves with the very question we're discussing.

    designs posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:50:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 3504 of 18881
    Joined 6/17/2009

    misery-

    Don't kick yourself to hard. The GB knows and refuses to do anything about it because its all about power. Why does someone run for the Senate and spend 40 years as a Senator- power baby.

    You could paint it in Big RED Letters on the sidewalk in from 124 Columbia Heights and it wouldn't change a thing, hubris and excuses know no bounds.

    Franklin Massey posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:58:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 15 of 373
    Joined 1/5/2011

    misery said, "I think to myself at times that, had I been familiar with the NT as a mature adult, and a couple JWs showed up at my door, and let just assume hypothetically speaking that I bit. Just assume that I bit long enough to entertain a bible study, and even attend meetings regularly. Eventually I'd be exposed to the F&DS doctrine, and I have a hard time believing that nobody in their right mind wouldn't question the lunacy of this doctrine. As a born-in during my teenage years I couldn't wrap my brain around this teaching. As an adult, I cannot wrap my head around it. The only difference now as an adult is when I try to accept this doctrine, my head starts to hurt. I know I'm not crazy, and I know there has to be other mature thinking Christians amongst the higher ups in this organization who have entertained themselves with the very question we're discussing."

    So you fantasize about what it would be like if you weren't ever a JW and how you would view the, *ahem* unique, doctrines if they were presented to you now? Glad I'm not alone! I find this role play to be a good thought exercise to keep my mind sharp and not regress back to the indoctrination I've recieved my whole life.

    One problem with long-timers/born-ins is that in everyday conversation, the FDS and Governing Body are often spoken of as one in the same. Add to that the idea that there is some sort of God-given magic that these men have. One big eye-opener for me was a talk by a GB member in which he candidly stated that the GB and the annointed are not necessarily granted any more Holy Spirit than the average publisher. There are WT articles that carry the same thought. I had heard this before but for some reason, I always ignored the implications of that comment, choosing instead to think that they must be getting a little extra power and direction. Turns out that it is another one of those old fashioned ideas that has lingered on in WT mythology.

    Mad Sweeney posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:16:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 3771 of 6963
    Joined 11/2/2009

    It's one of those things (among MANY) that they like to have both ways.

    On one hand, they appear to be humble and not claim any special authority or relationship with God for themselves. On the other, they disfellowship you if you ever question their special authority or relationship with God.

    It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic and sad.

    M BluesBrother posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:36:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 6452 of 8516
    Joined 10/29/2001

    Even Dub family members will admit that if they were presented with the modern message, new to them, on the doorstep...they would not be moved to follow it . It is only the information, and experiences within over many decades, that keep them believing..

    Re the Gov. Body and the FDS, The fact that they take decisions on behalf of the FDS does not make them "the slave" itself, even though the rest of the self confessed anointed have no role to play in running the Organization..

    The WT's will rail against the "self appointed" leaders of Christendom, but if the dubs would only think about it...What evidence do they have that the FDS is really the FDS? Only their own statements and the individuals own judgement of their writings. So this is purely a human assessment of things . They trust in their own judgement above all else to identify "The Truth".....They are saying , "I have decided that these people are true and I cannot be wrong"

    brotherdan posted Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:40:00 GMT(1/12/2011)

    Post 2772 of 3892
    Joined 4/6/2010

    The answer to all of this is that ALL Christians are to be Faithful and Discreet (or a better translation: Wise). There is no "class". We are all entrusted with the Kingdom and are responsible for giving spiritual food from the Bible to each other. The point of a parable is to teach people a lesson. It is not to prophecy. But the GB don't know anything about hermeneutics.

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