Bookmark and Share

Viewed 1155 times

How Long Has The Christ Been Invisibly Present?

    wannabe posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:04:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 225 of 305
    Joined 12/9/2009

    How Long has the Christ been Invisibly Present?

    I don't know as I have covered this one before or not, but can't we say that Jesus has been invisibly present ever since his ascension in the first Century? Didn't he indicate that he was in this following scripture?

    20"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." {Matthew 28:18-20 KJV} Key that thought in with John 17:4 where he made this following statement:

    4I" have glorified Thee on the earth; I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do." {John 17:4 21st CKJV}

    Then with that John 16:33:

    33 "I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. You will have suffering in this world. Be courageous! I have conquered the world." {John 16:33 HCSB}

    21 "The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." {Revelation 3:21 ESV}

    18"And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." {Matthew 28:18 ESV}

    Isn't it true, that when the Christ's anointed Brothers sit down with Jesus on his Throne after conquering the World, as he did; they are crowned King Priests? So where is Jesus said to be sitting? He's at his Father's right hand sitting on his Fathers Throne with his Father, isn't he? That makes him a Crowned King.

    So, Jesus had done it all! He had finished the work given him to do; he had conquered the World. All said and done, he took his seat beside his Father on his Father's Throne; given all Authority in heaven and on earth, wearing his Crown. But he had to wait for something didn't he? When that time came, he would stand up and begin exercising his All Authority; as mentioned by John in his Revelation at 12:10 - {Psalm 110:1,2}

    Am I amiss in saying, the Christ has been invisibly present ever since his ascension in the first Century?

    Did not the Christ prove Faithful to the point of death? Did he not receive the Crown of Life? He had finished the work his Father had given him to do! He had conquered the World! He had sat down with his Father on his Father's Throne. He had received his Crown of Life! He did all of that, in the first Century, prior to his ascension.

    10"Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life." {Revelation 2:10 NIV}

    Now! I'm no great Mathematiton, but the scriptural information is, the Christ has been invisibly present for well over two thousand years now; and to say that he has only been invisibly present since 1914 just has to be an utterance of the Spiritually Blind. They do not understand the Book they tell us no else understands but them. Who is that, you say? The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is who! Wannabe

    Perry posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:45:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 3276 of 4449
    Joined 12/21/2001

    You are absolutely right wannabe. Good thoughts!

    M moshe posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:56:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 4047 of 9085
    Joined 1/18/2005

    Jesus left the building almost 2000 years ago- I've given up on Elvis coming back, too. Invisible, asleep, away on a trip to some nebula, creating another perfect world- whatever- he's gone.

    ZeusRocks posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:36:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 30 of 203
    Joined 7/16/2010

    Almost 2000 years when some people decided they needed a hero so they wrote a few stories. He was invisible then and is invisible now.

    Horus has been invisibly present for a lot longer....I miss him seeing him, I wish he'd come down and say hello.

    peacedog posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:38:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 239 of 521
    Joined 10/17/2009

    Since 1874 1914

    Chalam posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:49:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 3414 of 4243
    Joined 12/29/2007

    wannabe Am I amiss in saying, the Christ has been invisibly present ever since his ascension in the first Century?

    No, you are correct, Jesus has been here since Acts 2, just as He promised.

    John 14:15-18 (New International Version)

    Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

    15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

    Blessings, Stephen

    wasblind posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:54:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 457 of 9409
    Joined 6/13/2010

    " They do not understand the Book they tell us no else understands but them. "

    You are so right Wannabe and scripture backs you up .

    2 timothy 3:7 " Always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth."

    wannabe posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:30:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 226 of 305
    Joined 12/9/2009

    Moshe!

    Buckle Up! He's Coming back! Lets hope soon too. I'm wearing out. Wannabe

    djeggnog posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:17:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 56 of 633
    Joined 6/15/2010

    @wannabe:

    [C]an't we say that Jesus has been invisibly present ever since his ascension in the first Century? Didn't he indicate that he was in this following scripture ... "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." {Matthew 28:18-20 KJV}

    You can say whatever it is you like, but this expression, about Jesus being "with" the anointed members of his congregation until "the end of the world" is just one way of Jesus giving assurance to his disciples of his approval for the disciple-making work that lay ahead of them.

    Isn't it true, that when the Christ's anointed Brothers sit down with Jesus on his Throne after conquering the World, as he did; they are crowned King Priests?

    Yes, but Christ's anointed brothers, the 24 elders dressed in white outer garments and who were seen by the apostle John in his vision wearing golden crowns upon their heads, many of whom had been martyred, were told to "rest a little while longer" until their number had been filled, "who were about to be killed as they also had been" (Revelation 4:4; 6:10, 11), so that John, who was one of the 144,000 knew that he, too, would be going to his "rest" until at some point during "the presence of the Lord" those who were already "dead in union with Christ" would be resurrected to heavenly life and thereby given their assignments as king priests. (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16)

    Now no one can be so dogmatic as to say that the "first resurrection" occurred in the year 1918, some 3-1/2 years after Jesus was installed as king in 1914, just because Jesus became King-Designate in 33 AD, some 3-1/2 years after his anointing in the year 29 AD, but we do know that during the Lord's presence those who had already "fallen asleep in death" were the first to be resurrected, and that those of Christ's anointed brothers that finish their earthly course during the Lord's presence will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" and join Jesus in his heavenly kingdom "as priests to our God," and from where they will "rule as kings over the earth." (Revelation 5:10; 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:52)

    Am I amiss in saying, the Christ has been invisibly present ever since his ascension in the first Century?

    In a word, yes.

    Now! I'm no great [mathematician], but the scriptural information is, the Christ has been invisibly present for well over two thousand years now; and to say that he has only been invisibly present since 1914 just has to be an utterance of the Spiritually Blind. They do not understand the Book they tell us no else understands but them. Who is that, you say? The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is who!

    Actually, it isn't true that "the scriptural information" is that Jesus Christ "has been invisibly present for well over two thousand years now," for his presence began when the appointed times of the nations were fulfilled in 1914. Anyone that suggests that Jesus' invisible presence began before 1914 would be dogmatically blind to the truth, if not spiritually blind. Not just the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, but all Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide recognize this as being the truth!

    On Pentecost of 33 AD, the apostle Peter relates at Acts 2:32-36 how after Jesus' resurrection, God had made Jesus "both Lord and Christ," which made Jesus the "head over all things to the congregation" (Ephesians 1:22), but because he had only being recognized as being king over his spirit-anointed subjects, "the Israel of God" at that time (Galatians 6:16), Peter was there indicating how Jesus had, in effect, become King-Designate toward the kingdom of the world, since he had to sit at the right hand of power and wait until the time appointed by God to expire when Jesus' enemies would be placed as a footstool for his feet.

    This waiting period is somewhat similar to the time that the Bush Administration had to wait between his being declared the victor after the election on November 4, 2000, until his inauguration as president on January 20, 2001, during which Bush was only President-elect Bush, having authority over those in his cabinet, his only "subjects," or similar to the 77 days that the Obama Administration had to wait between his becoming the victor after the election on November 4, 2008, until his inauguration as president on January 20, 2009, during which Obama was only President-elect Obama, having authority over those in his cabinet, his "subjects."

    However, when the full limit of the appointed times of the nations came and the "appointed times" were fulfilled in 1914, Jehovah's Witnesses discern that Jesus thereupon took up full Kingdom power over "the kingdom of the world" as king. This means that Jesus is no longer King-Designate, but he has been actively ruling as king of God's heavenly government over his earthly subjects 'in the midst of his enemies' since 1914. (Acts 2:32-36; Hebrews 10:12, 13; Psalm 110:1, 2)

    M THE GLADIATOR posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:25:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 937 of 2661
    Joined 5/31/2001

    How Long has the Christ been Invisibly Present?

    For as long as believers want to believe that he has; after all that is what believers do.

    Despite Jesus having a personal relationship with each of them, they still argue amongst themselves about things in which they should be utterly united. And where is Jesus while this is all going on?

    Invisible, unseen, unheard, unavailable for comment.

    wantingtruth posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:49:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 117 of 234
    Joined 3/22/2009

    Hello wannabe ,

    it seems we agree in many things !

    My lack of english prevents me to express many things I would to.

    Blessings !

    dgp posted Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:37:00 GMT(7/24/2010)

    Post 1289 of 2764
    Joined 7/8/2009

    Some people even question whether he was ever visibly present, or whether he is a composite of many others.

    M Cold Steel posted Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:11:00 GMT(7/25/2010)

    Post 139 of 1339
    Joined 11/1/2006

    Jesus says He will return, but on the other hand He tells us He will be with us always. Also, that when two or more are gathered in His name, there will He be also.

    His return should not be confused with His Presence, which is manifested through the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean that He can't return and appear to people as He chooses. (He tells us that He will appear to some and make His abode with them.) But He will not return to rule the Earth until Gog (the Beast) makes his assault on Jerusalem (see Zachariah 12, 14). In Zechariah 12, we learn:

    • Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place;
    • Jerusalem shall be a burdensome stone for all people;
    • The Lord will seek to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem;
    • Jehovah says, "They shall look upon ME whom they have pierced;
    • There shall be mourning in the valley of Megiddo (Armegeddon)

    In Revelation 11, we learn:

    • While under seige, the Lord will call two witnesses;
    • They will have power to call down fire and to seal up the heavens and smite the Earth with plagues;
    • Their mission will last three-and-a-half years;
    • After that, the Beast will slay them;
    • Their bodies will lie unburied in the streets of Jerusalem for three-and-a-half days;
    • Then the spirit of life from God enters into them, and they stand upon their feet;
    • They ascend up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies behold them;
    • An earthquake happens

    In Zachariah 14, we learn:

    • The Lord will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
    • The city shall be taken, and the houses rifled;
    • Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations;
    • The mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west;
    • And Jehovah's feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives;
    • The LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD;
    • Every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles;
    • Those who don't come up will be visited with draught and plague.

    When pieced together, and viewed in the context of Ezekiel 38, this is a blow by blow detailed description of the Second Coming of Christ. It also shows clearly that He is Jehovah, who will rule during the Millennium as King and Lord. All nations will gather against Jerusalem, which will be gathered back into the place of its inheritance. All the nations under Gog's rule will come down on Jerusalem, the Lord will call two prophets and the battle will rage three and a half years. After that, the prophets will be killed, and then resurrected. As they go up to heaven, Jehovah comes down and the Mount of Olives splits in twain in an earthquake. The Jews run into the midst thereof and one asks Him, "What are these wounds in thy hands?" And the Lord answers, "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zachariah 13:6)

    Only when Christ returns will Jesus be on Earth to rule. And those Muslim nations that refuse to go up and worship Him will be sanctioned by draughts and plagues. The idea of an "invisible" return is, of course, ridiculous. It's like transubstantiation. Invisible miracle...wanna see it again? It's a good way to get one over on the masses. I don't know who at Bethel came up with it, but I can see him coming home that night and telling his wife.

    "Do you think they'll buy it?"

    "I don't know. We'll run it up the flagpole and see who doesn't salute!" [Famous JW line!]

    EndofMysteries posted Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:20:00 GMT(7/25/2010)

    Post 815 of 2783
    Joined 11/18/2009

    Cold Steel - Very much along the lines of what I've seen, or from a literal standpoint. If you got that from your own reading, happy to see some really studying and trying to learn the truth.

    EndofMysteries posted Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:21:00 GMT(7/25/2010)

    Post 816 of 2783
    Joined 11/18/2009

    O and Cold Steel - Have you explored if the two witnesses may not even be human? Or if their prophesying is over a much longer span of time?

    M I quit! posted Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:26:00 GMT(7/25/2010)

    Post 1527 of 2477
    Joined 3/24/2005

    Supposedly since 1914. All I know is let you or me or any JW try not showing up for work and telling our boss were invisibily present and see how that goes over.

    The Finger posted Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:22:00 GMT(7/25/2010)

    Post 370 of 857
    Joined 1/23/2010

    I think you're right Christ has been invisible present since his ascension. I think his 2nd coming hasn't occurred. It will be like lightning, he said, something that is very visible. In the preceding verse it seems to be talking about those who say he has returned but is not visible. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    jam posted Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:56:00 GMT(7/25/2010)

    Post 185 of 3633
    Joined 6/22/2005

    John 16;33 He conquered the world and Matt. 28;18 Christ have all authority in Heaven and earth.

    Since he has conquered the world in 1914 or 2000 yrs. ago why has he continue to let Satan deceive?

    For what purpose. My understanding of Satan was , he Is the ruler of this world but the bible stated

    he is the great deceiver of the world a big difference. And who was Christ speaking too at Matt;28;20

    (I will be with you to the end of ages), the Jews..Matt. 15;24 Jesus said He was sent ONLY to lost sheep

    of the house of Israel (jews). Why Jesus didn,t say he will be with all of mankind until the end of days , he must had known

    that his people would reject him one day..

    foolsparadise posted Mon, 26 Jul 2010 01:11:00 GMT(7/26/2010)

    Post 110 of 170
    Joined 7/6/2009

    There is no way to tell how long because its hard to see and believe in something that is invisible.

    M Cold Steel posted Fri, 30 Jul 2010 03:19:00 GMT(7/30/2010)

    Post 144 of 1339
    Joined 11/1/2006

    Have you explored if the two witnesses may not even be human? Or if their prophesying is over a much longer span of time?

    No, I take a pretty literal reading of this one. In apocalypic literature, you can get into some crazy stuff, and it's not all literal and it's many times presentational. In this case, the two prophets are the two candlesticks mentioned by Zechariah. The two prophets also have powers that traditionally were given to Elijah and Moses. I don't think these are the two prophets, though there is a tradition that Moses was assumed into heaven as was Elijah.

    Why take it literally, though? Note the language (Rev. 11):

    And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    The city has to be Jerusalem and cannot "spiritually" represent anything else since it "spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt." Specific reference is made to their dead bodies, the fact that they wouldn't be put into graves, that the "spirit of life" entered into them and that they "stood upon their feet." Also, their enemies would see them and that they would ascend into heaven in a cloud. The earthquake here is undoubtedly the same one mentioned in Zechariah -- the one which splits the Mount of Olives in twain. When Jehovah comes, all the saints would come with him, and the Jews would see the wounds in his hands and say, "What are these wounds in thy hands?"

    In short, mixing literal elements and metaphor just isn't done, even in apocalyptic literature. In any given section, it's either all one or all the other. Mixing them would confuse everyone. There are places where metaphor is used, but I see it used with other obvious metaphors like the woman and the wilderness, the beasts and such. In this case, the Beast mentioned already has been identified as presentational. He's a real person. Jerusalem is a real city, and the time periods are actual days and years. For these witnesses to be metaphors, it would require massive mixing of real and presentational. Just my view.

      Close

      Confirm ...