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The Best Way to Stop a Jehovah's Witness In Their Tracks

    sabastious posted Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:09:00 GMT(3/23/2010)

    Post 47 of 9407
    Joined 2/3/2010

    I have thought long and hard about ways to silence a JW who is inquiring about your defection of their religion.

    They will look at you as a fool. Someone without faith and trusting in "man alone." A JW is programmed to never blame "Jehovah" for the works of any man, so if anyone leaves the "truth" because of something the Governing Body did or is doing, they look at you with pity because you have fallen into an "easily avoidable" trap, all they think you have to do is pray and rely on your Creator alone and everything will turn out ok.

    So, here is a transcript of something I am working on, it's a conversation with a JW about "your decision.":

    JW: Hey, I heard that you are not a witness anymore

    You: That is correct

    JW: Why would you ever want to leave Jehovah?

    You: Well, I don't really think im leaving God, just more the Orginization and the Governing Body

    JW: That IS Jehovah, he has appointed them over all his domestics! So leaving them is the same thing

    You: I don't really believe that

    JW: You are sounding like an apostate

    You: Hear me out, I would never ask you to leave your faith because I know how important that is to you, but for the sake of information I will tell you why I feel it is in good conscience to leave the Orginization, but before I tell you i'd just like to ask if it is ok to tell you my train of thought here

    JW: Ok

    (IF THE JW SAYS NO, THE CONVO STOPS HERE)

    You: For so many years we have all been taught about the concepts of blood guilt and keeping the congregation pure and without fermentation, right?

    JW: Yeah

    You: It's why we have things like disfellowhipping and stuff, to keep the congregation clean because a little leaven ferments the whole loaf.

    JW: Yes

    You: Well a while back I was reasearching Oral Sex because I was about to get married to my wife and wanted to know if it was okay within the marriage arangement

    (THIS CAN BE A TOPIC OF YOUR CHOICE, THE TOPIC HAS TO BE ONE THAT WAS CHANGED BY THE SOCIETY AND AFFECTED MANY LIVES)

    JW: The Watchtower says it is a conscience matter

    You: That's what I thought too, but a lot of people were counseling me to stay away from it, people that had been in the Org for a long time, so I wanted to look up what the Society said about it

    JW: Okay

    You: So I looked it up and found two types of councel. One was telling us that it was a VERY serious crime and that if you did it you had to immediatly tell the Elders about it and a judicial committee would be formed. Just like if you committed fornication.

    JW: Really? I have never read that.

    You: It's in there, it was practiced in the 70's. Then I looked up another article about it of which the Society did a complete 180 on the matter. It was now a conscience matter, which is the way it should be. I don't think our sex lives with our marriage mates should be entered by anyone.

    JW: Yeah, that makes sense.

    You: So reading this information really spurred some deep thought on my part. I thought, what happended to all those couples that had oral sex as an integral part of the sex lives for so long? What if you have been using it as foreplay for decades? Once it was turned to a DF'ing offense, that must have really affected a lot of relationships. Right?

    JW: Yeah, I could see that.

    You: Turns out it did, a lot of people broke up over it, believe it or not, sex is a really important part of a relationship and if something all of the sudden greatly affects it, it can start a snowball rolling. And another thing, what about men that were completely impotent? Oral Sex was the only way that he could satisfy his marriage mate, which is extremely important for men to feel good about themselves. Their only means of satisfaction would become a disfellowshipping offense.

    JW: Yeah, but Jehovah is always there to help you through the hard times.

    You: Yes, but here me out, I have point with all this. I was reminded of the story when Moses broke the rock with his staff and water came out saving the Israelites from dying from thirst, but he took all the credit. What happened to him?

    JW: He was punished severely, he was denied the Land of Milk and Honey

    You: Indeed. Kind David was harshly punished when he stepped over the line as well. Jehovah had a system back then that helped correct his Chosen Leaders when they made major missteps. This system is not in place today. If the Governing Body, the modern day Moses, makes very large mistakes like banning Oral Sex within the marriage arangement and then years later lifting the ban only after disfellowhipping thousands and very possibly stumbling those ones that got DF'ed they do not get corrected at all.

    JW: Okay, I'm not getting your point here? This made you leave the Truth?

    You: It wasn't the Oral Sex ban that opened my eyes specifically. It just got me thinking. Because the Governing Body has some heavty demands of us.

    JW: No they don't they just provide the food at the proper time.

    You: Yes, and that food includes not only guidelines but also Spiritual Law, punishable by Disfellowshipping. I began to research how the Governing Body presents themselves, and how they feel they relate to us the Other Sheep. What I found out is they demand unquestioning loyalty. Just a few months back in a watchtower they demanded that we never "challange the sole channel Jehovah" even in small matters like dress and grooming.

    JW: That's because they know what's best for us using Bible Principles.

    You: I have no problem with them as a guide. But I do have a problem with them as law givers and enforcers. Simply because there is no system these days to hold them accountable for making large mistakes, which are of course possible with any human if Moses and King David are capable of them.

    You: Look, this is the way I feel. There are lots of ways to look at it. If you feel fine with the current setup than all power to you. But for me, I am going to step back and watch from here on out. From what I have learned about Jehovah and Jesus is that they are loving merciful entities that have a godly form of reason. I honestly don't see myself getting destroyed in the end for following my conscience just as you and everyone else has that god given right. We as Witnesses have always believed that we have all the answers, but now I get the feeling that in the end, we will all be very surprised how it turned out.

    JW: Well, you make sense.

    You: To each his own. I understand if these views make you feel alienated from me, they are controversial to say the least. But maybe one day we can enjoy each others company as people with different views, but humans nonetheless

    JW: It was nice hearing your thoughts, have a nice day

    You: You too, but that is all they are just thoughts. Humans are ever changing, no one can predict how we will feel about something tomorrow, cercomstance has a way of flip flopping our ideals rapidly. I hope you have a great day.

    OUTLAW posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:32:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 14904 of 23865
    Joined 10/11/2001

    The best way to stop a Jehovahs Witness in their Tracks ..

    http://www.montrealmirror.com/2008/073108/images/sports2-1.jpg

    ................... ...OUTLAW

    sabastious posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:42:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 48 of 9407
    Joined 2/3/2010

    @Outlaw, lol. That is plan B, maybe C.

    ziddina posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:59:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 1249 of 10450
    Joined 4/8/2009

    Urk! I skimmed it - way long; I suspect that a typical JW would be hopping from one foot to the other like he needed to relieve himself by the time I got to the bottom... Good points, but I don't believe in 'god' at all.

    I like these [much shorter...] JW-in-their-tracks-stoppers...:

    (a) "I'm an apostate!" ...

    (b) "I'm a Witch/Pagan/Neo-Polytheist"... (Whoops. Forgot. You could also throw in "Devil Worshipper", if you REALLY wanted to get on their "Do Not Call" list fast!!!)

    (c) "The bible actually contains at least THREE gods: "EL" as in Isra-EL, the YHWH, and the triple god (Father, son, holy ghost) of the New Testament. So which one do you REALLY worship?" .... and

    (d) "Do you think that the REAL god would be represented by the oldest religion on the planet, or the youngest??? [wait for answer, depending on answer... either..] Why do you think god would only be found in the YOUNGEST religion, if he made all these ancient things??? [or...] Well, the bible is one of the YOUNGEST religious books on the planet; it's only 3,500 years old, but Goddess worship is AT LEAST 35,000 years old and Animism is AT LEAST 40,000 years old and may even be 80,000 years old. So why do you worship the "Johnny-come-lately-Middle-Eastern" god, again???"

    Zid

    sabastious posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 01:50:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 49 of 9407
    Joined 2/3/2010

    @zid - that is how to scare them away, which as you state is really easy :)

    It is extremely complex if you want to have them even begin to understand your stance and even possibly see where you are coming from. You will never sway a JW, but it is possible to help them see that your position is valid and that it is impossible to judge where people will be after the "JW Armageddon."

    True, it does only work if you still believe in a Creator. But the main points are still that the GB has no one to answer to, which dethrones them from law makers and enforcers. The convo can be altered fairly easily for an athiest.

    man in black posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 01:53:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 20 of 593
    Joined 3/10/2010

    so your not a witness anymore, why ?

    Tired of listening to a bunch of men who claim to have an exclusive relationship with God,

    end of story.

    sabastious posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 02:00:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 50 of 9407
    Joined 2/3/2010

    @man in black - if you totally okay with being severely judged and shunned than something like that will work well.

    My post is mainly for people who are looking for understanding from the few JWs capable of understanding different views.

    This is a war, a war against prejeduce of free thinkers and our only lasting weapon is us being the bigger people and keeping our cool. SHOW them that we are as human as them, that's it's possible to have a life without "Jehovah." I know that sounds impracticle, but you could have said the same things for woman rights or slavery before they have been combatted.

    M moshe posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 02:13:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 3523 of 9085
    Joined 1/18/2005

    JW's probably won't really listen to that discussion- the whole time you are giving that lecture they are thinking in their mind what they are going to say next. JW's don't operate by logic, otherwise, after 1975 the religion's followers would have all left the building. I can only remember one JW who inquired as to why I left their religion and I assume they were already toying with the idea of leaving the KH. .

    JW's love to tell you their story, but your "story" is just wasted time for them. Do you know that the best show stopper for me when I was a JW was only three words long. It was simply, "are you happy?" - my standard JW response was, yes, the housholder's reply was, - "you need to stop lying to yourself". She cut me off and closed the door. I don't remember any householder who tried to reason with me, but I remember that middle aged lady. She cut right to my core emotion, bypassing the JW's liar circuits. To be effective with a JW, you must not let them use any come-back scripts that they have memorized. Throw them off balance with a questions that embarrass them and humiliate them.

    M Black Sheep posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 02:44:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 4366 of 9994
    Joined 8/8/2003
    looking for understanding from the few JWs capable of understanding different views

    'Few' is the operative word here. There are none of those in my family

    garyneal posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 02:59:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 849 of 3424
    Joined 9/5/2009

    My wife would try her best to overtalk me if I somehow triggered her cult personality while doing this. On a very rare occasion, she might be more at ease and in her authentic personality and allow this kind of reasoning to progress.

    ziddina posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 04:04:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 1256 of 10450
    Joined 4/8/2009

    Sabastious, you said, "It is extremely complex if you want to have them even begin to understand your stance and even possibly see where you are coming from. You will never sway a JW, but it is possible to help them see that your position is valid and that it is impossible to judge where people will be after the "JW Armageddon..."

    Actually, as Moshe pointed out above, it wasn't the long, involved explanations that got me thinking - but then, as I've posted elsewhere, I was NEVER a "good little Jehovah's Witness girl" - it was the scripture at Exodus 19: 16-19 that CLEARLY describes a volcano erupting, but the Isra-EL-ites and their 'god' had NO CLUE as to the real nature of the mountain... Which I first noticed when I was 7 - 8...

    It was the guy at the door when I was 12, who told me, "Those people are using you!" When I asked him to explain further, the adult sister accompanying me gave him the 'evil' eye, and he just repeated himself to me once more, and shut the door. I almost hammered on the door, but that blasted sister kept me from finding out more...

    As others have pointed out, most JWs don't know the bible that well; they're fed a bunch of carefully-manufactured sales pitches with just a 'dab' of scripture... To make them feel 'righteous'... So long, involved biblical explanations won't work very well...

    Ya just never know what might work... Someone might even respond to the "I'm a devil-worshipper" comment...

    Zid

    sabastious posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 05:54:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 51 of 9407
    Joined 2/3/2010
    JW's probably won't really listen to that discussion

    They are few and far between. But it's all we got at this point. We're in for the long haul to combat cult mind control. One reasonable slice of logic at a time :)

    M jehovahsheep posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 06:24:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 213 of 437
    Joined 4/27/2008

    it would be nice to be able to have a dialouge with one-but they are so terrified to listen.most avoid us like the plague.,

    M wobble posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:04:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 2483 of 5745
    Joined 2/20/2008

    Hey Seb !

    I certainly hope you get the chance for such a convo. with just one Witless. As with the old D to D work, if you can start a convo. you are away, whatever direction it takes.

    If I wanted to stop a J.W in their tracks,apart from the Outlaw method LOL, I might try saying " give me just one piece of proper, testable, evidence, that stands up to scrutiny and reason, that there is a God."

    I don't think that would stop them, but it might start them talking, I would then be able to plant alot of seeds of doubt.

    love

    Wobble

    F blondie posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:04:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 29036 of 37159
    Joined 5/28/2001

    JW: Hey, I heard that you are not a witness anymore

    You: That is correct

    End of conversation, you have just da'd yourself; and if you are already da'd or df'd it is highly unlikely any jw would be talking to you if they were aware of that.

    M streets76 posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:27:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 94 of 438
    Joined 1/18/2006

    This is easy.

    Ask this one question: "Do you believe the WTS is inspired and/or directed by Jehovah?"

    If the answer is yes, the follow-up question is, "Then why have the WTS prophecies down through the years (1914, 1925, 1975, etc.) been so consistently wrong?"

    If the answer is no, the follow-up question is, "So why would you belong to an organization you admit is not inspired and/or directed by Jehovah, and in addition, has been consistently wrong with their prophecies down through the years?"

    ziddina posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 14:58:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 1275 of 10450
    Joined 4/8/2009

    After reading Blondie's latest WT study post, "Finding your place in the congregation"... http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/187544/1/Blondies-Comments-You-Will-Not-Hear-at-the-1-17-10-WT-Study-PLACE-IN-CONGREGATION

    I've come up with two more ways...

    One: Focus on the skewed gender numbers in the organization... "So, how many men do you have in your congregation, as opposed to women? [their eyes may glaze over; prompt them - "More women than men?"...] So, if this is the divine organization of a male 'god', why do the women outnumber the men by such great numbers???"

    I'm basing the next one on this quote from AllTimeJeff: "This is crap. There is no such thing as the faithful and discreet slave with Jehovah's Witnesses. Only their now capitalized since 1971 Governing Body. (formerly, the governing body.) This is actually a useful propaganda tool for the GB to keep the attention off them. It makes them appear humble, as they hide behind the nearly over 9000 who partake at the memorial each year....'

    Two: "It's a "faithful and discrete slave class that rules your religion?? How many are there??" [wait for it...] "So, do they all mail in their opinions to the headquarters, where a consensus is taken? [or...] So, do they all [9,000 - 10,000] discuss it among themselves, and then come to a decision?"

    PSacramento posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:08:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 3211 of 10925
    Joined 6/22/2009

    F rocky220 posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:45:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 656 of 652
    Joined 7/29/2002

    For me, it has always been short and simple......"I'm an ex-JW with no regrets!" Boy, it works every time!!!! rocky220

    sabastious posted Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:04:00 GMT(3/24/2010)

    Post 52 of 9407
    Joined 2/3/2010

    @blondie - it's possible to get DA'ed with a convo like this, albeit very possible. But I made a pact with myself that I will never fear being DF'ed or DA'ed. If I get into a judicial commitee then I will have a similar converstaion with the elders.

    I'm on a mission to find free thinkers among my old people, exiled or not :) with Reason as my weapon. So far I have managed to send two letters to my family with similar tone to the OP and have not got myself DA'ed or DF'ed yet. My hopes grow every day :)

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