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My Son is studying the lie, this is long but I need help !

    M oldflame posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 06:46:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 1575 of 1578
    Joined 12/13/2004

    Well my son started a study with the witnesses and man was I pissed when I first heard about it but then I figured he would try to defend it with their crap lies and sure enough it happened so this is what we have discussed so far. He has started with the Trinity. this is long but if anyone can help me out I would be grateful. First he sent me this message,

    Dad, (thats me)

    Please dont get upset or offended but i found a scripture i know you belive in the trinity but this contridicts that ACTS 7:55 NIV says "but stephen, full of holy spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God". First thing that i noticed is that it says stephen was filled with holy spirit not that it was a person or being, also it says that he saw jesus standing at the right hand of god that sounds like two seperate people to me or beings

    My reply back,

    Son,

    I don't get offended son but rather the opposite, I will discuss scripture with you anytime. Here is some things I came up with I hope this helps you understand how Christianity understands the trinity. And how the Witnesses twist it. It is long but I spent a good while doing this so please read it and follow it up by looking them up.
    In the Old Testament God revealed Himself to His chosen people, the Israelites as I AM:
    Ex 3:14-15 - God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM
    has sent me to you.” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers,
    the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever;
    this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.
    He also revealed Himself as ONE at Deuteronomy 6:4:
    “Listen, Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One. Deut 6:4
    This is also reiterated in the New Testament at the following scriptures:
    “This is the most important,” Jesus answered:
    Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One. Mark 12:29 (HCSB)
    Then the scribe said to Him, “You are right, Teacher! You have correctly said that He is One, and there is no one else except Him. Mark 12:32

    At 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 this statement is made concerning God:
    For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
    yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him. 1 Cor 8:5-6
    However, at John 8:58 and at John 8:24 Jesus also referred to Himself as I AM:
    Jesus said to them, “ I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
    Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [He] (bracketed text has been added by the translators for clarity) , you will die in your sins.” John 8:24
    At both scriptures the Greek phrase "Eigo Eimi" is literally translated as I AM in all Interlinears, including the WTBTS's KINGDOM INTERLINEAR.
    At John 8:24 Jesus claimed to be deity, but the Pharisees didn’t understand His meaning.
    Throughout its history, the WTBTS has misrepresented the Trinity concept in order to make its denial of the doctrine plausible to reasonable people:
    *** w72 2/15 104 How Is Jehovah Different from All Other Gods? ***
    Certainly the God of such beauty of personality is no angry god of an eternal torment of hellfire, nor a grotesque three-headed trinitarian god, as Christendom's religions would have their members believe.

    *** w71 10/15 627 Are the Churches Leading the Nations into Collision with God? ***
    The majority of Christendom's churches say that there are three persons in one God, that he is, as it were, a 'three-headed' God. They teach that when Jesus died, God died.

    *** w65 7/1 405 Death of a Dynasty ***
    The leaders of Babylon the Great have represented God as a three-headed trinitarian monstrosity, an eternal-torment fiend, and have led the peoples of the earth to worship other false gods.

    *** w65 11/1 667 Searching for and Finding God ***
    For example, the trinity doctrine was a stumbling block. I had never seen a three-headed man and just could not bring myself to believe that the God I was to worship as my Creator was a God with three heads, which was my impression of the doctrine. Being taught the trinity nearly caused me to lose faith in a Supreme Being.
    Pagan concepts of God are radically different from the doctrine of the Trinity. The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods who headed up a pantheon of many other gods. But these triads constituted three separate gods, which is utterly different from the doctrine of the Trinity, which maintains that there is only one God with three persons within God. Pagan practices, including polytheism (belief in more than one god, which is a doctrine the WTBTS promotes as evidenced in the NWT at John 1:1), predate Christianity by 2,000 years and were far removed from the part of the world where Christianity emerged. From a historical and geographical perspective, the suggestion that Christianity borrowed the Trinitarian concept from pagans is unfeasible.
    It is interesting to note that many pagan religions taught the concept of a great flood and a messiah-like figure (Tamuzz) who was resurrected (see the WTBTS's MANKIND's SEARCH FOR GOD book reagrding flood legends).

    *** g89 12/22 12 Do You Worship a Living God? ***
    For example, the ancient Egyptians worshiped the trinity of Osiris, Isis (his wife), and Horus (his son). And the Hindus, even down to this day, worship a trinity made up of the three-headed Trimurti of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva.

    If the WTBTS uses a consistent method of reasoning, it must follow that the Christian doctrines of the flood, the Messiah (Jesus) and His resurrection are also pagan. Simply because pagans spoke of a concept remotely resembling something found in the Scriptures does not mean the doctrine was stolen from pagans otherwise one would have to conclude that the flood, the Messiah and the resurrection of Christ are also derived from paganism.
    Trinitarians do not believe the Trinity is a God with three heads or a 'three-headed God'. They believe in three co-equal persons who are the nature, essence and being of God.
    The doctrine of the Trinity is based on three lines of evidence:
    1. There is only ONE true God.
    2. There are three persons who are God.
    3. There is a three-in-oneness within God.
    EVIDENCE FOR ONE GOD
    That there is one true God is the consistent testimony of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It is a thread that runs through every page of the Bible. God positively affirmed through Isaiah the prophet:
    This is what the Lord, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but Me. Isaiah 44:6
    Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; [I am]God, and no one is like Me. Isaiah 46:9
    The oneness of God is also emphasized in the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 8:4, for example, the apostle Paul asserted that “an idol is nothing in the world,” and that “there is no God but one.”
    James 2:19 says, "You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder." These and a multitude of other verses prove there is one - and only one - God.
    EVIDENCE FOR THREE PERSONS CALLED GOD
    On the one hand, Scripture says there is only one God. Yet in the unfolding of God's revelation to mankind, it also becomes clear that there are 3 distinctive persons who are God in Scripture.
    The Father is God:
    Peter refers to the saints "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the father" (1 Peter 1:2).
    Jesus is God:
    When Jesus made a post resurrection appearance to Thomas, Thomas said, " My Lord and my God (John 20:28). Jesus did not correct Thomas for this statement. Rather, Jesus said, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Those who believe without seeing are blessed.” John 20:29
    but about the Son: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. Heb 1:8
    The Holy Spirit is God:
    In Acts 5:3-4, Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn’t it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn’t it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!”
    Lying to the Holy Spirit is equated with lying to God.

    Each of the 3 persons, on different occasions is seen to possess the attributes of diety:

    1. Omnipresence:
    The Father:
    “Am I a God who is only near”—[this is] the Lord’s declaration—“and not a God who is far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places where I cannot see him?” —the Lord’s declaration. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” —the Lord’s declaration. Jer 23:23-24
    The Son:
    Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Matt 28:18
    The Holy Spirit:
    Where can I go to escape Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence? Psalms 139:7

    2. Omniscience:
    The Father:
    Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways! Romans 11:33
    The Son:
    But perceiving their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts? Matt 9:4
    The Holy Spirit:
    Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. 1 Cor 2:10
    3. Omnipotence:
    The Father:
    who are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5
    The Son:
    Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Matt 28:18
    The Holy Spirit:
    by the power of miraculous signs and wonders, and by the power of God’s Spirit. Romans 15:19
    4. Holiness:
    The Father:
    Lord, who will not fear and glorify Your name? Because You alone are holy, because all the nations will come and worship before You, because Your righteous acts have been revealed. Rev 15:4
    The Son:
    But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked to have a murderer given to you. Acts 3:14
    The Holy Spirit:
    and was established as the powerful Son of God by the resurrection from the dead according to the Spirit of holiness. Romans 1:4

    5. Eternality:
    The Father:
    Before the mountains were born, before You gave birth to the earth and the world, from eternity to eternity, You are God. Psalms 90:2
    The Son:
    Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me.His origin is from antiquity, from eternity. Micah 5:2
    He was with God in the beginning. John 1:2
    “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the One who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”
    Rev 1:8
    When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. He laid His right hand on me, and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last, Rev 1:17
    The Holy Spirit:
    how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:14
    6. Truth:
    The Father:
    As He was teaching in the temple complex, Jesus cried out, “You know Me and you know where I am from. Yet I have not come on My own, but the One who sent Me is true. John 7:28
    The Son:
    “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
    “The Holy One, the True One, the One who has the key of David, who opens and no one will close, and closes and no one opens says: Rev 3:7
    The Holy Spirit:
    And the Spirit is the One who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6

    Can anyone other than God have the attributes of God?

    THREE-IN-ONESS WITHIN GOD
    Matt 28:19 reads: Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father
    and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
    It is highly revealing that the word "name' is singular in the Greek, indicating there is one God, but three
    distinct persons within God - the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not say, "into the names
    [plural] of" or what is its virtual equivalent, "into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and
    into the name of the Holy Spirit," as if we had to deal with three separate Beings. Nor does He say, "into the
    name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (omitting the three recurring articles), as if "the Father, Son, and
    Holy Spirit" might be taken as merely three designations of a single person. What He does say is this: "into
    the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," first asserting the unity of the
    three by combining them all within the bounds of the single name, and then throwing into emphasis the
    distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article (of).
    In conclusion, Jehovah's Witnesses quote Deuteronomy 6:4 as proof that God is not a trinity:
    “Listen, Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One.
    However, why do they insist that the Hebrew word translated "one" in this passage (echad) must refer to an
    absolute unity only, yet allow that the same word, when used in Genesis 2:24 to describe the marriage
    relationship, must refer to a composite unity:
    "This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and THEY become ONE flesh?"
    Two people = ONE flesh; therefore, there is no way that the wording of Deuteronomy 6:4 excludes the Trinity:
    rather, the Hebrew word used for "one" (echad) may well indicate the reference is to more than one person.
    When Scripture is so unequivocal in its teaching that “No one can be a slave of two masters" (Matt 6:24), how
    can James have two separate masters and serve Jesus with the same diligence as Jehovah?
    James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.... James 1:1

    Jehovah's Witnesses misinterpret 1 Corinthians 14:33 in saying the Trinity cannot be biblical because God is
    not a God of confusion. Simply because we don't fully comprehend a doctrine does not mean the doctrine is
    false. For human beings to be able to understand everything about God, we would need to have the very mind of
    god. Scripture affirms:
    Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and
    untraceable His ways! Romans 11:33

    “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not My ways.” [This is] the Lord’s declaration.
    “For as heaven is higher than earth, so My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
    Isaiah 55:8-9

    For now we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know
    fully, as I am fully known. 1 Cor 13:12

    Scripture is clear that human reasoning has limitations. Finite minds cannot possibly understand everything
    there is to know about an infinite being. just as a young child cannot understand everything his father says
    and does, so we as God's children cannot understand everything about God.
    Consulting the context of 1 Corinthians 14:33 shows that the Corinthian church was plagued by internal
    divisions and disorder, especially in regard to the exercise of spiritual gifts. Since God is a God of peace,
    Paul says the church must model itself after God by seeking harmony in its services. By doing so honors God.

    1 Corinthians 14:33 doesn't even remotely deal with the Trinity.

    Then he replies back,

    MATT 3:17 AND A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAID THIS IS MY SON WHOM I LOVE WITH HIM I AM WELL PLEASED.
    MATT 16:16 SIMON PETER ANSWERED YOU ARE THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.
    MATT 4:3 SATAN HIMSELF SAYS YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD "THE TEMPTER CAME TO HIM AND SAID IF YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD TELL THESE STONES TO BECOME BREAD".
    JOHN 20:31 BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST THE SON OF GODANDHTAT BY BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN HIS NAME.

    Then I replied back saying,

    Jehovah is king of Isreal in ISA. 44:6 , and Jesus is identified as King of Isreal in Mark 15:32 and John 1:49, therefore Jesus must also share the name Jehovah. Additionally, Jehovah comes from the " I AM " of Exodus 3:14. The name in Hebrew is YHWH which is where we get Jehovah.
    God says in Isa. 46:5 that no one is equal or even compareable to Him, and says in Isa, 48:11 that he will share his glory with no one, yet every name applied to Jehovah in the Old Testament is applied to Jesus in the New Testament or prophetically in the Old Testament.
    God says inIsa. 45:23 that " to Me " -- Not "to my Son" or "to my Redeemer"-- but " to Me " every knee will bow, etc. Yet in Philippians 2: 9-10 , it says that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, etc... And Acts 4:12 says that there's no other name given that can save except the name of Jesus !
    Finally, Jesus accepted worship ( Matt. 8:2 , 9 : 18 , 14:33 , 15:25 , 28:9 , 28:17 )
    Knowing only Jehovah God is to be worshipped ( Luke 4:8 )
    I hope this helps son I really do, I would never ever cause you to stray away from God as that would send me to hell for eternity and I will not allow that. I love you dearly and I would die for you in a heart beat, and so I would never lie to you about God and the reality of being free in God !
    I was a youth pastor for almost two years, you could not hold that kind of position if you did not know your scriptures. Okay ?
    Love Dad

    If this was you what would you have done or said ?

    Oldflame

    M oldflame posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 06:47:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 1576 of 1578
    Joined 12/13/2004

    Some of the stuff in the thread I used from a thread from this site. So there are things quoted...

    TheOldHippie posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:21:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 1787 of 2275
    Joined 1/31/2001

    If you are trying to defend or advocate the trinity, you are trying to defend a lost cause, a cause unmentioned in the Bible but produced by clergy's tradition only.

    Aussie Oz posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 08:19:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 395 of 3755
    Joined 11/12/2009

    My feeling is that it may be of little benefit to cross scripture with scripture. It's like an old sword fight. Tit for tat. There will always be another proof offered to counter anything you use to counter prove and so on. Additionally, you will actually be fighting the one who is studying with him.

    I will not be debating any doctrine with my kids (13 and 16) as i prepare to get them out. I will not try to turn them against God or the bible even though i have no religious interest at all, Nor to direct them to another faith.

    My focus will only be on showing facts, documented not heresay, that the WBTS can not possibly be the organization that God is using.

    May i ask how old your son is 'oldflame'?

    Oz

    Chalam posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 09:05:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 2736 of 4243
    Joined 12/29/2007

    Hello OF,

    Here is some stuff from the ESV Study Bible

    Jehovah's Witnesses

    The divine name. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God's one true name—the name by which he must be identified—is Jehovah. Biblically, however, God is identified by many names, including: God (Hb. ’elohim; Gen. 1:1), God Almighty (Hb. ’El Shadday; Gen. 17:1), Lord (Hb. ’Adonay; Ps. 8:1), and Lord of hosts (Hb. yhwh tseba’ot; 1 Sam. 1:3). In NT times, Jesus referred to God as “Father” (Gk.Pater; Matt. 6:9), as did the apostles (1 Cor. 1:3).

    The Trinity. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Trinity is unbiblical because the word is not in the Bible and because the Bible emphasizes that there is one God. Biblically, while it is true that there is only one God (Isa. 44:6; 45:18; 46:9; John 5:44; 1 Cor. 8:4;James 2:19), it is also true that three persons are called God in Scripture: the Father (1 Pet. 1:2), Jesus (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3–4). Each of these three possesses the attributes of deity—including omnipresence (Ps. 139:7; Jer. 23:23–24; Matt. 28:20), omniscience (Ps. 147:5; John 16:30; 1 Cor. 2:10–11), omnipotence (Jer. 32:17; John 2:1–11; Rom. 15:19), and eternality (Ps. 90:2; Heb. 9:14; Rev. 22:13). Still further, each of the three is involved in doing the works of deity—such as creating the universe: the Father (Gen. 1:1; Ps. 102:25), the Son (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2), and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30). The Bible indicates that there is three-in-oneness in the godhead (Matt. 28:19; cf. 2 Cor. 13:14). Thus doctrinal support for the Trinity is compellingly strong.

    Jesus Christ. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was created by Jehovah as the archangel Michael before the physical world existed, and is a lesser, though mighty, god. Biblically, however, Jesus is eternally God (John 1:1; 8:58; cf. Ex. 3:14) and has the exact same divine nature as the Father (John 5:18; 10:30; Heb. 1:3). Indeed, a comparison of the OT and NT equates Jesus with Jehovah (compare Isa. 43:11 with Titus 2:13; Isa. 44:24 with Col. 1:16; Isa. 6:1–5 with John 12:41). Jesus himself created the angels (Col. 1:16; cf. John 1:3;Heb. 1:2, 10) and is worshiped by them (Heb. 1:6).

    The incarnation. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that when Jesus was born on earth, he was a mere human and not God in human flesh. This violates the biblical teaching that in the incarnate Jesus, “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2:9; cf. Phil. 2:6–7). The word for “fullness” (Gk. pleroma) carries the idea of the sum total. “Deity” (Gk. theotes) refers to the nature, being, and attributes of God. Therefore, the incarnate Jesus was the sum total of the nature, being, and attributes of God in bodily form. Indeed, Jesus was Immanuel, or “God with us” (Matt. 1:23; cf. Isa. 7:14; John 1:1, 14, 18; 10:30; 14:9–10).

    Resurrection. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually from the dead, but not physically. Biblically, however, the resurrected Jesus asserted that he was not merely a spirit but had a flesh-and-bone body (Luke 24:39; cf. John 2:19–21). He ate food on several occasions, thereby proving that he had a genuine physical body after the resurrection (Luke 24:30, 42–43; John 21:12–13). This was confirmed by his followers who physically touched him (Matt. 28:9; John 20:17).

    The second coming. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the second coming was an invisible, spiritual event that occurred in the year 1914. Biblically, however, the yet-future second coming will be physical, visible (Acts 1:9–11; cf. Titus 2:13), and will be accompanied by visible cosmic disturbances (Matt. 24:29–30). Every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).

    The Holy Spirit. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force of God and not a distinct person. Biblically, however, the Holy Spirit has a mind (Rom. 8:27), emotions (Eph. 4:30), and will (1 Cor. 12:11)—the three primary attributes of personality. Moreover, personal pronouns are used of him (Acts 13:2). Also, he does things that only a person can do, including: teaching (John 14:26), testifying (John 15:26), commissioning (Acts 13:4), issuing commands (Acts 8:29), and interceding (Rom. 8:26). The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity (Matt. 28:19).

    Salvation. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that salvation requires faith in Christ, association with God's organization (i.e., their religion), and obedience to its rules. Biblically, however, viewing obedience to rules as a requirement for salvation nullifies the gospel (Gal. 2:16–21;Col. 2:20–23). Salvation is based wholly on God's unmerited favor (grace), not on the believer's performance. Good works are the fruit or result, not the basis, of salvation (Eph. 2:8–10; Titus 3:4–8).

    Two redeemed peoples. Jehovah's Witnesses believe there are two peoples of God: (1) the Anointed Class (144,000) will live in heaven and rule with Christ; and (2) the “other sheep” (all other believers) will live forever on a paradise earth. Biblically, however, a heavenly destiny awaits all who believe in Christ (John 14:1–3; 17:24; 2 Cor. 5:1; Phil. 3:20; Col. 1:5; 1 Thess. 4:17; Heb. 3:1), and these same people will also dwell on the new earth (1 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1–4).

    No immaterial soul. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that humans have an immaterial nature. The “soul” is simply the life-force within a person. At death, that life-force leaves the body. Biblically, however, the word “soul” is multifaceted. One key meaning of the term is man's immaterial self that consciously survives death (Gen. 35:18; Rev. 6:9–10). Unbelievers are in conscious woe (Matt. 13:42; 25:41, 46; Luke 16:22–24; Rev. 14:11) while believers are in conscious bliss in heaven (1 Cor. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:6–8; Phil. 1:21–23; Rev. 7:17; 21:4).

    Hell. Jehovah's Witnesses believe hell is not a place of eternal suffering but is rather the common grave of humankind. The wicked are annihilated—snuffed out of conscious existence forever. Biblically, however, hell is a real place of conscious, eternal suffering (Matt. 5:22; 25:41, 46; Jude 7; Rev. 14:11; 20:10, 14).

    LWT has posted this a few times. I just started checking it out the other day, seems excellent in all respects so far :)
    http://www.waltermartin.com
    Jehovah's Witnesses The Deity of Jesus ChristRefutation of Watchtower Theology in Regard to the Triune DeityThe Resurrection of ChristThe Watchtower’s Scriptural Distortions Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus Christ and the Trinity Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus Christ and the Trinity - Side 2
    Blessings, Stephen

    M Black Sheep posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 09:24:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 4084 of 9994
    Joined 8/8/2003

    Ask him to draw you up a list of Babylonian kings from Nebuchadnezzar to Nabonidus, showing which king reigned in which year, quoting his sources.

    Don't tell him anything. Just ask in such a way that he feels obligated to give you an honest answer. Don't accept diversions.

    You must make him feel guilty if he can't/won't answer you.

    Cheers

    Chris

    teel posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 09:29:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 372 of 946
    Joined 8/28/2009

    I share Aussie's views. While you made remarkable evidence for the trinity, it all boils down to faith. Battling using scripture quotes can get you nowhere in this, both parties have good arguments.

    What is good imo is to show him the twisting the WT uses, as you did. While I was a JW I had no idea of the true concept of trinity either. Now I see it was deliberately fogged. The true concept is in fact very much acceptable in my view, just as the arian view is. Then it boils down to faith. Hence I conclude the WTS doesn't want their followers to rely on faith, they overwhelm them with "evidence" (true or contrieved) so faith will have no role.

    M slimboyfat posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 09:48:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 3653 of 8459
    Joined 11/24/2004

    I agree with TheOldHippie. Why are you defending the Trinity? Keep it simple and just point out all the falsehoods and manipulation in the Watchtower literature.

    freddo posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:04:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 99 of 246
    Joined 5/13/2009

    I agree with the oldhippie, teel and slimboy - the trinity doctrine is not supported by scripture. In my view there is more scripture against it as there is for. Especially if you stick to proving the holy spirit not equal to the other two. Stick to false prophecy, UN, Malawi etc. Get him a copy of CoC.

    M Black Sheep posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:27:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 4090 of 9994
    Joined 8/8/2003

    Go to the library and get this book for him. Better still, buy it for him, that's what I did. Read it yourself, I did that too.

    http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Your-Child-How-Think/dp/0140238301

    Cheers

    Chris

    Mad Sweeney posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:42:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 487 of 6962
    Joined 11/2/2009

    Good advice from many so far. Trying to keep him out of one belief system by convincing him another is correct is unlikely to work.

    If your son is any kind of thinker and lover of freedom, show him how the borg uses cult mind control. You can go with Lifton or even easier, Hassan's B.I.T.E. method. Tell him you're not accusing the JWs of anything special and that ALL CULTS use these methods to one extent to another and NONE of them are healthy.

    If he'd rather discuss doctrine, blow 1914 out of the water using only info from the WT as has been shown here on JWN several times (a search should bring it up easily). Once you've done that you have undermined their divine authority.

    zoiks posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:55:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 345 of 1949
    Joined 9/27/2009

    Wow, you definitely have cause for concern! My thoughts are in line with what others have said - I wouldn't try to get into a scriptural battle over such a divisive issue. He is no doubt already being trained to expect "opposition", especially from family.

    Instead, I might perhaps tell him that if he is truly interested in this religion, some research on its history would be prudent. After all, the WTS urges members of other religions to really examine their respective churches. The same level of scrutiny should be given to this religion that claims to have the truth. And if it really is the truth, then its history, teachings, actions, and claim to be god's mouthpiece would all stand up to that scrutiny.

    I wish you the best.

    F Mary posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:17:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 11053 of 12736
    Joined 6/26/2002

    Oh lordie. I know this must be your worst nightmare come true Merrill. Here's my own two cents on what you should do:

    1. Forget debating the Trinity with your son right now. I hate to admit it but this is one of the very few things the Dubs teach that I still subscribe to. While I don't believe the doctrine of the Trinity myself, I fully realize that there are several scriptures that support both sides of the argument and hence it is futile. Christians have been debating it for 2,000 years.

    2. There are so many other doctrines that the Borg teaches that are easily refuted, that I would start with one of them. Do you still have a copy of my project that I sent you? If you do, give it to your son to read. If you don't have a copy, see if Gumby still has a copy. If he doesn't, PM me either on here or Facebook and I'll send you another one.

    Please keep me posted.

    Bloody cult.

    designs posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:01:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 749 of 18396
    Joined 6/17/2009

    This sounds more than a little like a set up dialogue.

    If its real just have your son take some comparative religions classes to broaden his horizons.

    cantleave posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:33:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 2150 of 13054
    Joined 6/25/2009

    I agree with many of the sentiments above. Don't try fighting on doctrines such as the trinity, not even the witnesses do that these days. Show the JW-cult leaders to be false prophets, decievers and lacking in integrity. As others have said get your son to see that the whole 1914 premise and the subsequent chosing of the FDS in 1919 is seriously flawed. It won't take long for him to see that they have not been chosen as God's spokesman organisation on earth.

    AuntBee posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:53:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 194 of 395
    Joined 5/27/2008

    Whatever you do,as far as trying to give info, do it quickly. My good friend's daughter is being baptized in March (boyfriend and his mother bringing her in!), and we were AMAZED at how quickly she was indoctrinated against listening to anyone else. They teach them early on that Satan is going to HATE them "sudying the BIble", and will bring fierce opposition (that's you, Dad!) I knew about this, but seeing it played out in real life with an extremely intelligent 18 year old, it was still shocking.

    F Mary posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:12:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 11055 of 12736
    Joined 6/26/2002
    They teach them early on that Satan is going to HATE them "sudying the BIble", and will bring fierce opposition (that's you, Dad!)

    Yep. I think this is what confirms to so many people that JW's 'have the truth'. When family and friends discover that they're studying with them, they (naturally) show alot of concern and will try warning the person of what the Witnesses are really like. Since this is exactly what the Witnesses have predicted, the person studying suddenly thinks "wow! the Witnesses were right! This must be the true religion!" and the rest is history.

    All high control groups use the exact same method. Their leaders know full well that they're scamming potential recruits so they always compare themselves to Jesus and how badly people spoke of him, how they mocked him and his early followers for being "different", and they apply it to themselves. For many unsuspecting souls, this is the quicksand doctrine that eventually nails them if they don't get the full picture early on.

    WTWizard posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:03:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 9666 of 14865
    Joined 5/10/2007

    I would ask them to define "a generation". When they try to string two generations together by claiming Jesus "evidently" meant that it is the generation whose lives intersect those who were alive in 1914, ask for them to prove that Jesus actually said this. They can use only the Bible to prove it, and if they start wildly going from chapter to chapter out of context to find proof, they are probably lying. If it could readily be proven, it would either be in Matthew 24:32-34 (or around there) or in one of the parallel Gospels. I have found no evidence, let alone proof, around those Gospels that "a generation" is the group whose lives intersect the lives of those who saw the beginning of the end.

    If even this blatant bullsxxx doesn't wake them up to that they are being taught a lie, nothing will.

    M oldflame posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:08:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 1577 of 1578
    Joined 12/13/2004

    Hello Everyone,

    I first want to say thank you to all who posted here on my thread. I do agree with many of you about arguing the Trinity but actually he brought it to me for me to refute what he was being taught. My son is not a child he is 27 years old, he is also as stubborn as his dad (me) LOL

    He also does not live with me or in my state I'm in california and he is in Texas.

    I could tell by talking to him that yes they have already brain washed him into believing that I and others will attack him for getting involved. At first when I heard of it I was mad, I mean I was really pissed and I wanted to punch something or someone ! So I backed off a bit and I knew I would be hit with questions or rather his positive theory. Well It happened and I fell to pieces not sure what to say or do as I had told him when he was here about the many things they believe and practice . It is my mother who caused all this who is a witness. His mother my ex-wife is enraged over this especially when it was her birthday and he would not recognize it to her, it through her for a loop and she kicked him out of the house.

    I thought about the books out there like CC and Mary's fine work but I am afraid that as in the past they will just end up in the garbage.

    I have to be very careful in showing him the right way away from the wrong way as he is a very whats the word I'm looking for ? he is easily impressionable I guess I should say. I can say this much I can see I got one hell of a fight on my hands now with the WTBS and my son who I love so dearly.

    Oldflame

    nugget posted Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:00:00 GMT(2/4/2010)

    Post 387 of 3887
    Joined 11/22/2009

    I agree with many of the posters, if he is 27 and already able to match scripture to scripture he is already fairly deep in. You need an alternative approach. I would go for the cult characteristics rather than doctrine.

    I would say that you appreciate the conversations you have with him about doctrine as they are both interesting and stimulating and one of the things you really enjoy about the visit. Say as last time he introduced the topic of the Trinity could you perhaps pick the next topic for discussion for the next visit? If he agrees chose one topic and present your case clearly, calmly and succinctly. Perhaps 1914 and the generation. Cite historical verifiable sources that disprove dates. Deal only with facts rather than scriptual interpretation since the argument is so much stronger.

    Another tack is to look up sources quoted by the WTBTs and show him what sources actually say. State that as the society has quoted from this source and provided details to source material in their publications then there can be no objection to looking them up. Look up some in advance that have been used inappropriately. If you can demonstrate that the society has been disingenuous and untruthful in some matters it may prompt him to start questioning what he is being taught.

    The secret is to take it slowly and not frighten him off causing him to cut all contact by going in all guns blazing. Restrict your acguments to verifiable facts from respected sources. Keep it friendly and treat him in the same way witnesses treat a return visit. say: "I did enjoy this discussion and the points you made, as I picked this time what do you want to discuss on the next visit? I am really looking forward to our next chat."

    It is hard to let someone down so although he may be disturbed by something you have said, human nature also wants to be agreeable so once he has agreed to a visit he is more likely to follow through. Then each visit have a goal in mind, keep it friendly and arrange next visit at the end.

    I wish you well.

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