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Baptism

    Aeiouy posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:14:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 15 of 93
    Joined 12/5/2009

    So I was thinking about baptism today, and something that was said in my JC meeting a few months ago. I was baptized at the ripe old age of 10. Yes that's right, 10. That should be illegal. What kind of 10 year old knows what they want to do for the rest of their life? I think there should be a limit on when one can get baptized. There is a reason you're not considered an adult until you're 18. It's because you're not an adult! And even at 18, who in their right mind really knows what they want to do.

    Anyway, it bugs me because if someone has reached say 15 years of age, they begin to be looked badly upon by others if they have not gotten baptized. Why aren't you baptized? Are you doing something immoral? You're not studying enough are you? What's wrong with you? That's what I've seen at least. In my JC meeting, they brought up the vow that I had made, and told me I had an obligation to fulfill it whether I wanted to or not. I had made a vow. I thought to myself, "WTF? How could I possibly have known what I was getting into at 10 years old? And now I'm bound for the rest of my life by something I did when I was 10? Not Bloody Likely! There is no way that would hold up in the imperfect human courts of this evil evil world. Why then would Jehovah accept the vow of a 10 year old?

    Just my ramblings. Any thoughts?

    M OnTheWayOut posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:45:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 9652 of 18156
    Joined 9/8/2006

    Even though I took the "vow" as an adult, and took the one where I swore allegiance to the corporation instead of the father, son, and holy spirit, the corporation used deception and withheld information from me. I entered into the relationship in good faith, but they took advantage of me. Nobody needs to uphold their end of such a deal.

    Plus, all I did was make a promise that I upheld. There was not a promise to leave it open-ended.

    dgp posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:46:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 187 of 2764
    Joined 7/8/2009

    I have one thought, Vowel Man. Who says you can't change your mind about your baptism, even if they baptized you when you were old enough to know what you were doing?

    By this I don't mean you don't have a point in saying that you were baptized at 10 and that should count in your favor when wanting out. What I mean is, you can change your mind, can't you? If the society encourages you to get baptized, and supposedly it's your own decision, why can't you decide otherwise later?

    And, let's not make mistakes. Jehovah didn't make you get baptized. The people in your congregation did. Or, are we now to say that they are the same as Jehovah?

    I don't believe in any gods, but, for the sake of argument only, let's just say that Jehovah would be a bad God if he were to take as valid the pressure a group of people exerted on a child. Or, if he were the kind of God who won't let you change your mind. And you can fulfill your obligation to Jehovah without them, can't you? Why does Jehovah have to use a fallible elder?

    dgp posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:48:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 188 of 2764
    Joined 7/8/2009

    Hey! I just noticed something (maybe it's too late, but, anyways). OTWO says he made a vow to an organization, but this organization withheld information. I'm sure they did, and I don't think Big J would take it against him.

    But, since when do you baptize into an organization? Since 1985. But, isn't baptism an act of faith? Why do you have to get baptized into an organization? And, what is supposed to happen if your faith changes?

    HappyGuy posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:52:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 149 of 707
    Joined 11/9/2009

    what were the questions when you got baptized? were they that you were showing by this outward sign of being immersed that you were dying to your forer course of life and giving a public demonstration that you were dedicating your life to serving God (or Jesus or Jesus God or God Jesus I get confused)?

    Or was it the one where you say that you will obey the WTBTS?

    If it was the first one then your relationship with God is between you and God and no man has any right to interfere in that. The Bible says that very clearly.

    If, on the other hand it was the second one, then they have a problem because they change their doctrine so often it is difficult to know what you are obeying. And they entered into this contract (because of the way the questions are now worded it is a contract) by giving you false information to persuade you to agree to the contract. So, they have violated the contract.

    But, yes you are right, contracts with 10 year olds are not binding anywhere that I know of.

    Aeiouy posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:54:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 16 of 93
    Joined 12/5/2009

    According to the elders in my JC, my faith isn't allowed to change. I made a vow. A life long commitment. And I have an obligation to uphold that vow. Interesting points though about swearing to a corporation. Too bad that won't work with the R&F.

    Aeiouy

    M wizardca posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:58:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 95 of 125
    Joined 9/16/2007

    I really don't see the issue with JW baptism. Personally I think it's better than how other religions do it.

    You could have been a baby being baptised into the church. Then when you were 10 went through classes became confirmed ands start partaking communion because mom n dad wanted you to. How is that any different?

    Aeiouy posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:02:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 17 of 93
    Joined 12/5/2009

    @wizardca:

    That's the point. How is it any different? Witnesses say they don't do infant baptism because the person needs to be making a conscious decision. That's why they condemn other churches for infant baptism. But it would seem that they themselves follow the same creed. I don't know. Like I said. Ramblings.

    Aeiouy

    HappyGuy posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:12:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 150 of 707
    Joined 11/9/2009

    I have an issue with JW baptism.

    As far as I understand the purpose of baptism in the New Testament, it was an outward sign that a person was committing their life to serve "God" (whatever that means). The immersion under water was to signify that the person died to their former course of life, and the coming up out of the water signified that they were now alive in their new life, resurrected as it were. Something like that.

    The WTBTS has changed baptism to mean that one is committing their life to obey the WTBTS. I got this question from DocBob's site. He says it is the latest version of the 2nd baptism question:

    Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

    Looks to me like it is a contract between the baptism candidate and the Watchtower corporation that the baptism candidate is agreeing to obey the Watchtower corporation. Because if you read the literature of the Watchtower corporation it says that you can only be one of Jehovah's Witnesses if you follow the direction of the faithful and discrete slave which they claim is them.

    That is the problem I have with JW baptism.

    M AllTimeJeff posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:18:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 3928 of 5825
    Joined 11/9/2006

    Aeiouy

    Totally agree with you. It's not right that a lifelong committment is put upon a minor, esp when you are lied to about what you are signing up for anyway.

    Due to my experience, I am a big believer in reaching an age of majority, whether 18 or 21, for such major decisions.

    Marni Mai posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:31:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 2 of 27
    Joined 12/4/2009

    "I was baptized at the ripe old age of 10. Yes that's right, 10. That should be illegal. What kind of 10 year old knows what they want to do for the rest of their life? I think there should be a limit on when one can get baptized. There is a reason you're not considered an adult until you're 18. It's because you're not an adult! And even at 18, who in their right mind really knows what they want to do."

    Exactly! I was baptised at 14 and really, I was pretty young and naive. It was what was expected of me so I did it. I've seen 9 yr olds getting baptised. It's pretty scary.

    sammielee24 posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:35:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 4107 of 7749
    Joined 12/9/2004

    I really don't see the issue with JW baptism. Personally I think it's better than how other religions do it.

    You could have been a baby being baptised into the church. Then when you were 10 went through classes became confirmed ands start partaking communion because mom n dad wanted you to. How is that any different?

    ----------------------

    JW Baptism is different because of the penalties applied to it.

    A baptized JW can be disfellowshipped and thereby shunned - a non baptized JW cannot. So in essence, if a non baptized JW commits adultery and is not repentent, he'll simply be counselled and maybe lose some privilege; the baptized JW who commits adultery and is not repentent will be disfellowshipped. (By the way this is just an example of a crime but it could be anything). A non baptized JW who spouts the same apostate stuff as a baptized JW again, will not suffer shunning as will the disfellowshipped person.

    Two sets of rules for everyone sitting in the KH so it is always better to remain unbaptized - I'm sure God would understand that allegiance should never be to a corporation.

    The WTS is a one way door and sadly, people are trapped once baptized...and that is distinctly unlike the majority of other religions. That vast 'other' majority, do not shun their members, do not track them down and denounce them publicly and divide loyalties and families. There is nothing good about JW baptism and because of the severe punishment meted out to those baptized ones, it should not even be allowed within the congregations until one has reached adulthood - preferably around mid twenties at the very least. sammieswife.

    F jamiebowers posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:57:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 2904 of 6370
    Joined 1/27/2007
    I really don't see the issue with JW baptism. Personally I think it's better than how other religions do it.
    You could have been a baby being baptised into the church. Then when you were 10 went through classes became confirmed ands start partaking communion because mom n dad wanted you to. How is that any different?

    It is different, because most religions don't insist that the whole congregation, including family, shun people who change their minds about the faith into which they were baptized.

    M Cold Steel posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:58:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 66 of 1339
    Joined 11/1/2006

    The Bible contains no information as to the age of commitment.

    People can be ready at varying ages. I was ready at 15.

    M AllTimeJeff posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:06:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 3931 of 5825
    Joined 11/9/2006

    Cold Steel, thats not very fair. The occasional succesful marriage between two 18 year olds is the exception, not the rule. It's about allowing minor to be kids and learn.

    The bible doesn't comment on a lot of things, but that shouldn't be interpreted as tacit approval for kids to make such decisions. It is a travesty that JW's allow this.

    dgp posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:13:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 189 of 2764
    Joined 7/8/2009

    I think Happy Guy has hit the nail. Baptism is an act of faith, a sign that you believe something. The society has changed it into a vow, a legal contract you have signed with THEM, not with the God you believed in when you baptized. That alone is reason enough for that "contract" to be invalid: you were thinking you were giving a proof of faith, not a lifelong commitment to an organization. And then, they don't seem to explain things too well, and the "contract" is entered into by one party who doesn't always have the "legal age" to do it.

    On the other hand, I think it's always wise to avoid the absurd. If you no longer believed what you used to believe, what do they really want with you?

    OUTLAW posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:13:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 13633 of 23865
    Joined 10/11/2001

    There a reason why children are`nt allowed to enter into a contract,in the Real World..

    It`s so ScumBags like the WBT$,can`t take advantage of them..

    ...................... ...OUTLAW

    trueblue posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:56:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 285 of 639
    Joined 6/29/2009

    I thought about getting baptized but I haven't the time for what the congregation expected out of me. It is hard to explain, but it is humanly imposssible with my employment and other things. I would need be married to an elders daughter to explain things for me.

    I did the best I can do, and I think that is what is required is to do your best, but evidently it is not good enough for the elders. Too bad for the WTS, and good for me for I think it is no longer a requirment to be baptized with water anymore anyway. I think being baptized by water is under the mosaic law and we are no longer under the mosaic law.

    Look back what John the baptist said Mathew 3: 11 "I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire."

    garyneal posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 04:01:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 351 of 3424
    Joined 9/5/2009
    According to the elders in my JC, my faith isn't allowed to change. I made a vow. A life long commitment. And I have an obligation to uphold that vow. Interesting points though about swearing to a corporation. Too bad that won't work with the R&F.

    Then the elder's are obviously in direct contradiction with the recent July 2009 Awake article.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPlhXI812yc

    M Billy the Ex-Bethelite posted Tue, 08 Dec 2009 04:03:00 GMT(12/8/2009)

    Post 2362 of 7240
    Joined 11/29/2007

    Wasn't Jesus 10 years old when he get baptized in water as an outward symbol before all onlookers that he was dedicated to Watchtower Corporation?

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