I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!

I Agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!

(I bet Reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!)

To Jehovah's Witnesses: I commend your zeal for God, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the Bible, your goals of drawing close to Jehovah, and following and obeying Christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the Bible. I commend you for trying to know and do God's will, and for trying to help save others.

The goal of this thread is to establish some common ground with Jehovah's Witnesses. I want to show all Jehovah's Witnesses which of their beliefs I agree with. My hope is to elevate the discussion to a better level than the usual discussions which often end up with name-calling or personal attacks.

Let me say up front, that I am a Christian, and I attempt to follow Christ everyday, and study God's Inspired Word each day, as well as pray to Him. I am definitely not a perfect man. I stumble many times in my walk with God. We all fall short of the glory of God. But my heart's desire (as well as my mind's) is to put God's will first in my life, to spend my life serving God and Christ in love, obeying their commands and principles out of appreciation and love. My goal is to become more Christlike every day of my life, with the help of The Holy Spirit.

Also, let me make it clear that I truly do love Jehovah's Witnesses. I sincerely love all of you Witnesses of Jehovah who may be reading this. I care about you. God loves you. Jesus Christ died for you. He wants you to know the truth and to be saved. With that being said, I should tell you that there are some major teachings of the Watchtower Society that I disagree with. (I will post them and explain why I disagree with those teachings on another thread later -- right now we will focus on the teachings I agree with.)

I Agree with Jehovah's Witnesses On These Teachings:

1:) The Bible is God's Inspired, Infallible Word, both the Hebrew and Christian-Greek Scriptures.

2:) God's Name is "YHWH" (Jehovah or Yahweh) and it is very proper to put that Name in the Hebrew Scriptures every time that it appears in the Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.

3:) There is only One True God, only One Almighty God, only One Creator -- Jehovah (Yahweh).

4:) God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Infinite, Holy, Loving, Just, Merciful yet Severe.

5:) God sent His Only Son to die as a Sacrifice for our sins on a tree.

6:) Jesus existed in Heaven with The Father before He came to earth, and He was known as The Logos (Word), and He was also the Personal Messenger (Special Angel) of Jehovah in the Hebrew Scriptures.

7:) Christians should do their utmost to follow and obey Christ and His teachings everyday.

8:) Christians should spend lots of time in personal Bible Study, Prayer, and Meditation on God, Jesus, and the Scriptures.

9:) Christians should meet together to worship God, encourage and strengthen each other, and discuss and study the Bible.

10:) Christians should always follow the Noble-Minded example of the Beroeans in Acts 17:11.

11:) There will be a future Paradise New Earth and New Heavens as prophesied in Isaiah and other parts of the Bible.

12:) Christ's Kingdom will rule the earth for 1,000 years, and He will have co-rulers (though I do not believe they are limited to 144,000).

13:) One of the reasons why God allows suffering is to prove Satan a liar.

14:) Christians should preach and teach the truth of the Bible and the Good News to people everywhere.

15:) We should not be followers of men, but followers of Christ, the only Leader.

16:) God did outlaw eating blood from an animal that had been killed by a human.

17:) Christians should not put all their trust in human governments to solve all their problems.

18:) Some Christian holidays do have a lot of pagan rituals, traditions, and customs added on to them.

19:) The New Testament does teach that there should be leaders in the Congregations and that they should be organized, and that Christians should obey them as long as they are obedient to Christ.

20:) Jesus is God's Son, His One-of-a-Kind Son. He is God the Father's Spokesman. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is Lord, Savior, Messiah, and High-Priest. God has appointed Jesus as The King of God's Kingdom. Jesus has the same Nature as God.

21:) There will be a resurrection one day. The righteous will be raised to everlasting life, and the wicked to everlasting destruction.

22:) Jesus will return one day to save His people and destroy the wicked in the Great Tribulation and Armageddon.

23:) Christians are NOT under the Mosaic Law.

24:) Christians are saved only by God and Christ's Undeserved Kindness through faith in the Ransom, not by any good works or acts of faith. (Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

25:) Baptism does not save you. It is just an outward symbol of your inward dedication and repentance toward God and Jesus. (Again, Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

26:) Your motives and heart condition are much more important to God than your actions or good works. God does not look at how many hours you put in Field Service, He looks at your heart. (Once again, Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

27:) God and Jesus are the sole Judges, and only they will determine who to save and who to destroy. (Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

28:) It is very, very important for Christians to have accurate knowledge and to know the truth. In fact, knowing the truth about God and Jesus' identity and nature means your everlasting life or death.

29:) Christians should remember and celebrate the Lord's Evening Meal.

30:) Christians should live by God's moral standards -- no fornication, adultery, murder, stealing, lying, idolatry, or even lusting and hating others.

Now, hopefully, I have established some good starting points for discussions with Reniaa, Spike, and all other Jehovah's Witnesses.

Let me say up front, that I am a Christian, and I attempt to follow Christ everyday, and study God's Inspired Word each day, as well as pray to Him.

Pagan.  Everybody knows JW's are the only true christians!

I don't agree with any of it, except that I'm not under the Mosaic law either. I live in the United States, a secular country.

I think it would be helpful if you reference said publications ....(just a suggestion)

Question about number 28...... what about 'nature' is required?

Beyond that.... Excellent post!!!!!!

A good display of 'unity' (compared to the conformity that exists during hardliner eras)

I agree with all that too just that I can never get myself to agree that the scripture saying if you spoil the child means that you should beat on your kids.

And I do not beleive that turn the other cheeck means to stand there and let someone hit you either.

Any time you disagree with them it is like playing with a double edge sword. You get cut with either side you play with.

Excuse me I mean the scripture if you spare the rod you spoil the child

trueblue, my understanding of that scripture is that it was an analogy to the way a shepherd uses a rod to guide sheep. He never hits them with it. That scripture was advocating gentle guidance. Which doesn't prevent people from taking it out of context.

26:) Your motives and heart condition are much more important to God than your actions or good works. God does not look at how many hours you put in Field Service, He looks at your heart. (Once again, Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

I was only a Witness from 1971-1989, but I never taught this.  I wa taught one earns salvation through works, and works alone.  And even then Jehovah may, or may not, let me live when he murders billions of people.

I am curious though about your feelings towards Jehovah's Witnesses teachings, and actions, toward child abuse.  I've read your posts on the old Lambs Roar board, so I think I have a pretty good idea, but if apologists such as those you mention, who refuse to address the issue in any way whatsoever, post on this thread, I would like this issue brought up.  The attitude of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I've seen it time and again on this board by those who claim affiliation with the Witnesses, toward child abuse is not only unChristian but downright evil.  Anyone, god himself included, who demands a child "prove" they were brutally assaulted by producing 2 eyewitnesses who stood by and did nothing to stop the assault is not only wrong but EVIL.

Be well,

Chris

Hi UD,

Good thread!

I agree with my JW friend on loads of stuff. I pretty much agree with the list you have written.

I agree with the statements save these in part or not at all.

4:) God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Infinite, Holy, Loving, Just, Merciful yet Severe.

I would say God is just, not "severe".

5:) God sent His Only Son to die as a Sacrifice for our sins on a tree.

I have to say that to me the cross is correct and a "torture stake" is destructive heresy. The greek for "cross" is stauros, there is no other word. Also, the evidence in the bible seems to point to a cross, not a pole. The WT want to keep people form salvation and the cross is what takes us there. Their "teaching" is another diversionary tactic to keep people from Jesus, just like their "teaching" on blood.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (New International Version)

Hi Big Tex,

What I wrote about Jehovah looking at your heart and motives and not anything else was taken from a newer Watchtower from the last year or two. (I don't have it in front of me at the moment. I will post the reference when I locate it.)

Yes, I agree with you absolutely, 110% that the Watchtower Society's "Two-Witness Rule" for Child Abuse (and the rest of their policy on abuse and rape) is morally evil, and is against everything Jesus stood for.

Here are some Threads that I posted on this Site years ago about this Policy:

Thread about the Watchtower Pedophile Policy: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/36778/1/Watchtowers-PEDOPHILE-POLICY

Thread about the "Two-Witness Rule" for Child Abuse Cases: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/39906/1/TWO-WITNESS-RULE-Watchtower-QUOTES

Thread about Matthew 18:15 being applied to Child Abuse Cases: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/39909/1/The-Matthew-18-15-Rule-for-Child-Abuse

Thread with Questions everyone should ask the Elders or Bethel about the Child Abuse Policy: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/37330/1/QUESTIONS-FOR-THE-ELDERS

Thread with Quotes from Watchtower Spokesman J.R. Brown about the Child Abuse Policy: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/36289/1/J-R-BROWN

Thread with a list of Watchtower Quotes about Child Molestation: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/39602/1/Watchtower-Quotes-about-MOLESTATION

Thread with a massive list of News Articles about JW Child Abuse and SilentLambs: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/39165/1/THE-silentlambs-ARCHIVE-Every-News-Article-Ever

Thread with a list of Contradictions stated by J.R. Brown and other Spokesmen about the Child Abuse Policy: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/44563/1/J-R-Brown-Contradictions

Thread about the Hypocrisy of the Watchtower Society for condemning the Catholic Church for having Child Abuse in their Organization: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/48389/1/Watchtower-Condemns-Catholics-for-Pedophile-Cover-Up

Thread about the Watchtower Society's Rape Policy: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/35408/1/Watchtowers-RAPE-Policy

 section 15) how can you even seriously include that ,when Dubs follow the F&DS of so called anointed men above Yahweh and Christ?

Jookbeard,

I am starting from the perspective of the average Witness who believes what the Watchtower Society teaches.

The Watchtower, August 1, 1975, Page 466:

"But no scribes or Pharisees were appointed as shepherds in the Christian congregation because they had “seated themselves in the seat of Moses.” Those “wise in a fleshly way” who gloried in being greeted in public places and being called “Rabbi” were not called. That type of “leader” is not found in the Christian congregation of Jehovah’s witnesses. Jehovah’s witnesses recognize but one leader, Christ. They shun any kind of title that would call for adulation. Jesus said: “All you are brothers.”—Acts 6:7; Matt. chap. 23; 1 Cor. 1:26-29."

ynot, thanks for your post!

I was referring to the "Nature of God":

The Watchtower, September 15, 2001, Page 28:

"Even false worship can be rendered with zeal and devotion. Rather, after stating that the Father would be worshiped neither at a mountain in Samaria nor at the temple in Jerusalem—both physical locations—Jesus pointed to a new method of worship based on the true nature of God. (John 4:21) He said: “God is a spiritual Being.” (John 4:24, Charles B. Williams) The true God is not material and cannot be seen or felt. His worship does not revolve around a physical temple or a mountain. Hence, Jesus referred to an aspect of worship that goes beyond the things seen."

Hay there Big Tex,

Very well put.

I would like add: I agree with Bush, he said if you harbor a terrorest then you are a terrorest.                                                                                     

If you harbor a child abuser then you are a child abuser is what I say.

And a comment on line 18 Chalam, Jesus said to keep doing this in rememberence of me.  I think just that to "keep doing this"  not just once a year like JW's do.

                               This is for JW'sYou broke my heartbecause I still love you, and I pray for you.

Hi Chalam (Stephen)! Thank you for your post!

You said:

"I agree with the statements save these in part or not at all.

4:) God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Infinite, Holy, Loving, Just, Merciful yet Severe.

I would say God is just, not "severe"."

My Reply:

God is kind, yet severe, according to Romans 11:22:

Romans 11:22 (KJV): Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 11:22 (ESV): Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Romans 11:22 (NWT): See, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. Toward those who fell there is severity, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be lopped off.

You said:

"5:) God sent His Only Son to die as a Sacrifice for our sins on a tree.

I have to say that to me the cross is correct and a "torture stake" is destructive heresy. The greek for "cross" is stauros, there is no other word. Also, the evidence in the bible seems to point to a cross, not a pole. The WT want to keep people form salvation and the cross is what takes us there. Their "teaching" is another diversionary tactic to keep people from Jesus, just like their "teaching" on blood.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (New International Version) ¹⁸For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

My Reply:

I agree that the evidence points to it being a Cross, however, I do not believe at all that this is a salvation issue. When Paul spoke about the "message of the Cross," he was speaking of the Gospel message that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, and rose on the third day according to the Scriptures, and was seen by many witnesses. (See 1 Cor. 15)

I don't think it's important whether there were two beams or one beam of wood, the important thing is that Christ (who is God, Lord, and Savior) died for our sins as a Sacrifice and rose again on the third day. God is not going to say, "I'm sorry, I can't save you because you believed Jesus died on one beam of wood instead of two beams of wood."

In fact, the Bible itself teaches that Christ died on a tree:

Acts 5:30 (ESV): The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.

Acts 10:39 (ESV): And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,

Acts 13:29 (ESV): And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

Galatians 3:13 (ESV): Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"

1 Peter 2:24 (ESV): He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

You said:

"6:) Jesus existed in Heaven with The Father before He came to earth, and He was known as The Logos (Word), and He was also the Personal Messenger (Special Angel) of Jehovah in the Hebrew Scriptures.

I agree in principle but I am wary of non biblical terms such as "Personal Messenger". "Special Angel" I do not agree with. Jesus, was, is and never will be an angel. He is the only begotten Son of God."

My Reply:

"Personal Messenger" (or "Messenger of His Presence") is taken from Isaiah 63:9:

Isaiah 63:9 (Young's Literal Translation): In all their distress He is no adversary, And the messenger of His presence saved them, In His love and in His pity He redeemed them, And He doth lift them up, And beareth them all the days of old.

Isaiah 63:9 (NWT): During all their distress it was distressing to him. And his own personal messenger saved them. In his love and in his compassion he himself repurchased them, and he proceeded to lift them up and carry them all the days of long ago.

The word "angel" simply means "messenger." It is the context which determines whether it is a human messenger, a created heavenly angel, or the Eternal Son of God.

Jacob, at Genesis 48:15-16, prays to The Angel of The Lord and says that this Angel is the God of Abraham and Isaac who has redeemed him and has been his shepherd all of his life. This Special "Angel" or "Messenger" can only be the Eternal Son of God, the Logos.

Also, The Angel of The Lord who appeared to Moses in the burning bush declared that He was Jehovah, the Great I AM WHO I AM.

You said:

"The Millennial reign I concur. However, the 144,000 are obviously 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe! Do the scriptures lie?! If you think it is figurative then surely 1000 years could be figurative? 1000 days? 1000 seconds?!"

My Reply:

I agree that the Scriptures teach that the 144,000 are Jews. However, the Bible definitely does not say that only the 144,000 will be co-rulers with Jesus for the 1,000 years. That was what I was saying.

You said:

"13:) One of the reasons why God allows suffering is to prove Satan a liar.

Do you have scripture for that? I am wary because I have heard JWs quote that in their "preaching". Next thing, we will be agreeing that Satan was thrown out of Heaven in 1914 which he wasn't!"

My Reply:

Job 1:8-12 (ESV): And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face." And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3-7 (ESV): And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason." Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face." And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and struck Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

That is only ONE of the many different reasons that the Bible says God allows evil.

You said:

"16:) God did outlaw eating blood from an animal that had been killed by a human.

Yes and no. Paul said eat what you want, but do not cause your brother to stumble. Also to avoid food sacrificed to gods."

My Reply:

There are different interpretations among Christians whether the Prohibition on eating blood in Acts 15 applies to all Christians or was just a temporary rule to keep the Jews from stumbling. (and also whether or not the Law given to Noah applies to Christians)

In either case, it only applied to EATING blood from an animal that had been killed by a human. It absolutely did not apply to medical blood transfusions.

You said:

"18:) Some Christian holidays do have a lot of pagan rituals, traditions, and customs added on to them.

So what? The whole world is pagan! Should I not celebrate Christ's birthday because the date might not be accurate because some dude changed it to line up with St. Nicholas' celebrations? No, I celebrate the birth of Christ and especially His death every day, unlike JWs who ignore Christ command to "do this in remembrance of me"."

My Reply:

I do not see anything at all wrong with celebrating Christ's birth. In fact, we should celebrate that every day of the year, and there is nothing wrong with celebrating it on December 25th.

I was simply agreeing with JW's that a lot of the customs and traditions associated with the holidays have nothing to do with what the Bible teaches. And some holidays are actually un-Christian in my opinion, such as Halloween. But I do not judge anyone for observing a day.

You said:

"24:) Christians are saved only by God and Christ's Undeserved Kindness through faith in the Ransom, not by any good works or acts of faith. (Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

I agree in principle but as James clearly says, faith without works is dead. We are saved by grace, a free gift least we should boast to do works Ephesians 2. So the faith comes first and works must follow."

My Reply:

Yes, but "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Php. 2:13) The free gift comes first, then after we are born again by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit moves us to do good works in love and appreciation for all that Christ has done for us and in us.

You said:

"Who cares what the WT says? It is all heretical at its core."

My Reply:

There are over 7,000,000 million Jehovah's Witnesses who care, in addition to the "interested ones" which brings the total to more than 14,000,000 worldwide.

Paul said that he became "all things to all people." He became as a Jew to the Jews, as a Gentile to the Gentiles, as under the Law to those under the Law, as without Law to those without the Law. In other words, Paul always tried to find common ground with everyone he preached the Gospel to. Especially read his speech on Mars Hill.

You said:

"26:) Your motives and heart condition are much more important to God than your actions or good works. God does not look at how many hours you put in Field Service, He looks at your heart. (Once again, Watchtower publications have changed on this teaching over the years. I am going with the very latest publications from the last year)

Once again, faith without works is dead. If we have the faith (the right motives and heart as you state) then we need the works and Jesus will judge both."

My Reply:

If we have the true, genuine faith in the true Jesus, and we have been born again, we will do good works because God is working in us. Now, we can choose not to do good works, and our rewards in eternity will be judged by Christ based on our good works. But, even if "our works are burned up" (or not as good as they should have been), we will still be saved, as if through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

You said:

"The thing is Jesus did not come to bring peace but division and there will always be division regarding Jesus."

My Reply:

Yes, but Paul taught this as well:

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 (ESV): For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

Colossians 4:6 (ESV): Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

Romans 12:14 (ESV): Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

Romans 12:18 (ESV): If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

Jude taught this:

Jude 1:22-23 (ESV): And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

i was always told heart condition + works + accepting jesus = salvation, nothing else, ever.

And two more very important passages of Scripture for Chalam:

2 Timothy 2:24-26 (ESV): And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

1 Peter 3:9, 15 (ESV): Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. [...] but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Here is a quote from the Reasoning Book (Page 350) which says that Christians are saved only by Undeserved Kindness and Faith, even though this disagrees with their other publications, which clearly say that you must obey the Governing Body, remain faithful, morally pure, study, go to meetings, actively go out in Field Service, etc, etc, to be saved:

Reasoning Book, Page 350:

"From what are Christians here urged to rest? From their “own works.” What works? Works by means of which they formerly sought to prove themselves righteous. No longer do they believe that they can earn God’s approval and gain eternal life by complying with certain rules and observances. That was the error of faithless Jews who, by ‘seeking to establish their own righteousness, did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.’ (Rom. 10:3) True Christians recognize that all of us were born sinners and that it is only by faith in the sacrifice of Christ that anyone can have a righteous standing with God. They endeavor to take to heart and apply all the teachings of God’s Son. They humbly accept counsel and reproof from God’s Word. This does not mean that they think they can earn God’s approval in this way; instead, what they do is an expression of their love and faith. By such a course of life they avoid the “pattern of disobedience” of the Jewish nation."

Hi UD,

Good points :)

Gotta crash.

All the best,

Stephen

I don't agree with any of it, so i guess i don't really have any common ground with the j-dubs anymore, or any christians for that matter. However, had i ever lived under the mosaic law i probably would have been an incredibly unhappy person, so i can agree with christians that the mosaic law should no longer apply, but for different reasons... i think it shouldn't apply because it is cruel & pointless, whereas christians believe it no longer applies because God said so, & they still support the God who initially imposed the mosaic law. I don't believe in God, i believe the mosaic law was invented by idiotic hebrew men.

I much prefer the christian idea of the golden rule, but it should be noted that the golden rule predates christianity. As for the j-dubs, they still are under the mosaic law (or parts of it) anyway, not that they would realise that.