70 years = 607?

70 years of captivity?

I myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the Bible the Bible must be right. That is how I dismissed the idea that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 BCE. Doesn’t the bible say that the Israelites were to spend 70 years of captivity? So when you start at the destruction of Babylon in 539 BCE – A proven date by WTS standards – this puts Jerusalem’s destruction at 609 BCE. But it took them a yearand ahalf  to walk home so 607.

Is there a basis for 70 years of captivity or desolation? I understand the logical thought that “70 years” applied to the complete removal of people from Jerusalem. However the bible itself seams unclear on this point. Zechariah 1:12 indicates a period of 70 years tied to the destruction of the temple (586-516 – according to secular history). Jeremiah 25:11 shows a 70 year period associated with Babylon’s rulership over “these lands” which would include the first conquering of the region by the Babylonians (609 – 539 – according to some scholars).

It doesn’t really matter when the 70 years begins for JW prophecy. Here is the real question: Why do they think Daniel’s “seven times” prophecy has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzer’s seven years of insanity? I can find no evidence of this in scripture. It seems to me to be a miraculous prophecy that took place exactly as Jehovah prophesied thru Daniel. This renders the whole 607 – 586 debate moot. Why add to it by using it to try to determine the length of the “gentile times”?

Love to hear your thoughts.

I left out something important. The only reason 607 exists  inJW history is so that the "7 times" prophecy of Daniel can bring you forwrd to 1914. That is the real point. "7 times" has nothing scripturally to do with the gentile times or time of the end.

If you look on older threads on this site (via the search button) you will see many interesting discussions about the 70 years,one of which convincingly points out that the scriptures that mention it seem to be talking about the servitude of the nations,including Judah,so 609bce would fit,and there is no need to pretend there was a two year sojourn for the returnees to make anything fit.

As you rightly say there is nothing in scripture to enlarge the prophecy in Daniel beyond what it says,in the same chapter,fulfilled in the 7 times that Nebby went Wolf.

Love

Wobble

There is an interesting look at the WT view of Daniel's prophesy in Steve McRobert's book, "Falling in Truth"

See Chapter 9

Don't stop at chapter 9.  His whole story is well worth reading.

Cheers

Chris

A JW would try to say verse 22 says:

22it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.

"extremity of the earth" has a grander fulfillment in Jehovah's rule.  Somewhere else in there is also a verse that says he gives it to whomever he wishes, even the lowlliest of mankind- JWs claim htis is speaking of Jesus.

Not adding to scripture then?

Regarding Daniel 4 it is a huge leap of logic.  I would call it adding to scripture as well.  This is speaking to Nebuchadnezzar:

22it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.

The JW then says "well it must have a greater fulfillment in Jehovah.  This is talking about Jehovah's rule."  This is certainly found nowhere in scripute but is needed to use these words any further than Nebuchadnezzar.  The rest that follows is not so much adding to scripture as it is misusing scriptue, misapplying and misinterpreting as well as using false chronology.  Then they run by connecting this to Luke 21 which speaks of the times of the Gentiles and come up with 7 gentile times.  Jump to Revelation and see 3 and 1/2 times equals 1260 days...double that means 7 = 2520 days.  They apply a day for a year used in Numbers (I think) to this and come up with 2520 years (of 360 days).  They then use a false starting point of 607BCE and count forward 2520 years (unsing 365 day years) and come to 1914.  Easy as pie right?

Why do they think Daniel’s "seven times" prophecy has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzer’s seven years of insanity? I can find no evidence of this in scripture. It seems to me to be a miraculous prophecy that took place exactly as Jehovah prophesied thru Daniel. This renders the whole 607 – 586 debate moot. Why add to it by using it to try to determine the length of the "gentile times"?

Allelsefails,

Determining the length of the gentile times is easy. How do we know? Because Jesus identified them for us in the Gospels. Where would we go to find this out? Well to the same prophecy in Matthew and Mark that Luke was writing about when he used the expression gentile times. Why then was this missed and such unsupportable dates like the WT and others applied to them? Because for some reason we cannot read or think for ourselves. And few notice that the Gospel writers did not always quote Jesus exactly but interpreted what he said for the readers. This is why they do not seem to match. But they do match in fact if we consider the audience for which such Gospels were written and they give a much different answer. I have discussed this many times on this forum but simply put Matthew, Mark, and Luke side by side and you should be able to see the answer.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

The verses look somewhat different but they are all talking about the same thing and that same future and final event that some like the elect look forward to.  And they all actually discuss such gentile times, how they go from bad to worse and identify their beginning. So yes, as you said: "This renders the whole 607 – 586 debate moot." The many books and articles written about such gentile times are nothing more than a distraction. Nothing like reading the wrong material to get confused and stay that way like many witnesses do.

Joseph

The 70 years does NOT apply to Jerusalem and the temple.  The 70 years applies to Babylon and is the length of time it would be the dominant world power.  You can see this clearly in the prophecy of Jeremiah where he discusses how all the nations (plural) in that region would be dominated by Babylon:

“Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘“For the reason that YOU did not obey my words, here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.  And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp.  And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ - Jeremiah 25: 8-11

Furthermore, even the Society confirms this in their own writings! --

“Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king."(Isaiah23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will "be forgotten." True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.” – Isaiah’s Prophecy I, p. 253

The bible and the secular records match.  The twisting of logic and scripture originates with the Society's need to maintain this flawed chronology that was developed in the 1820's.  Without 607 BCE, 1914 falls as does their 1919 date of appointment as the "faithful and discreet slave".  The entire authority of the organization hangs on the thread of 607 BCE.

" The entire authority of the organization hangs on ......607BCE"

Blimey,sounds as hopefull as an elephant hanging over a cliff with his balls tied to a daisy, I just think its gotta fall!

Thanks for your explanation Ultimate Reality,its good to give this stuff a new airing.

Love

Wobble

Why do they think Daniel’s “seven times” prophecy has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzer’s seven years of insanity? I can find no evidence of this in scripture. It seems to me to be a miraculous prophecy that took place exactly as Jehovah prophesied thru Daniel. 

That is because it is not in scripture   

I think you said it all! You know the people are always wanting to read more into  Nebuchadnezzer seven years of insanity; he ate grass, went crazy, was forgiven by God,  then gained his kingship back! God forgave him! What more do they want! Make something more of the seven times!

Perhaps they need to spend the Cabala! to see what the numbers means this time!

Germatria for Christians! I dont think I like it!  Interesting seven times means completion! Yeah right! LOL!  

That is the real point. "7 times" has nothing scripturally to do with the gentile times or time of the end.

Good for you! that is right!  

I remember how they came up with 7 times as 70 years! They take times, times and half of times to mean 3 1/2 years. So 7 times means 70 years! LOL

But you are still right it really has nothing to do with Gentile times ending! We are the Gentile times! It might have something to do with the Messiah birth! Although King Herod was a Gentile the (Roman Empire) still came in and conqured Jerusalem along with the destruction of the temple. 

Anyhow the Gentile wars are still going on. THE GENTILE WARS Hey that sounds like a movie!  

The incapacitation of a Gentile ruler is supposed to symbolize a period of Gentile hegemony over the earthly representative of God's kingdom (the Gentile times), and not just any ruler but the very Gentile ruler (Nebuchadnezzar) who overthrew God's earthly organization (Judah).  This is so illogical it almost boggles the mind.  The Gentile ruler Nebuchadnezzar symbolizes the very thing he destroyed whereas his own seven-year humiliation is supposed to symbolize Gentile supremacy, starting with his own rule!

God's earthly organization is Judah and yet God said that he was going to send his people the babylon to punish the false prophets of his earthly organization! So did he not put his earthly organization in exile so he could punish the prophets?

That has always been mind boggling!

allelsefails

The date 607 BCE is the only possibile date for the Fall of Jerusalem according to the Bible, the other dates of 586 or 587 BCE simply omit important biblical history so these dates fall short of the true date by twenty years. Apostates and secular scholars fail to give the Bible precedence over the interpretations of archaeology and thus fail to recognize the importance of the seventy years. The date of 609 bce is useless for the dating of the captivity because nothing happened in that year for the Captivity proper did not commence until the land was desolated in 607 BCE. 609 BCE is simply a 'furphy'.

There is much evidence that the seventy years was a period of captivity-desolation and servitude running from the Fall of Jerusalem to the Return of the Exiles and this view is supported by all  of Scripture and the testimony of Josephus. There are many varied interpretations of the seventy years but not a single one of them is practical, based on Scripture, faithful to history and archaeology. A careful reading of the Zechaiah and Jerememiah texts prove the above as well as that of Daniel and Ezra and I have argued these points in some detail on this forum over the last seven or eight years.

There is clear evidence that the seven times prophecy of Nebuchadnezzer known as the Gentile Times had a major fulfillment after Nebuchadnezzer and this is clearly seen from a careful reading of the entire chapter 4 of Daniel in both the Masoretic text and the Old Greek for starters. Of course apostates have none of this but there specious pleadings well represented by the Jonsson nonsense amounts to opinion and an individual exegesis.

Further, what also proves the validity of WT Bible based chronology as developed by those 'celebrated WT scholars' is the simple fact that 607 BCE nicely and providentially begins the prophetic period of the Gentile Times ending in 1914 CE. Such a fact inspires faith and it is faith that forms the basis of prophecy.

scholar JW

Let the games begin.

lwt....your turn to buy the popcorn

Yep, and some of those sour gummy worms.

leavingwt ... Let the games begin....lol

Hi allelsefails,

Interestingly you have already given two alternative interpretations for the 70 year period. This leads some to argue that there can be two 70 year periods refered to in the bible.

For me though the WT societies weakest link is 537BCE, if you notice any quotations in their literature it uses the word 'probable', hardly a word that should be used when they then go on to speak with great accuracy the autumn of 1914.

What i personally find interesting is how CT Russell's calculations began with a 606 date, but then he counted the year 0 between 1BC - 1 AD. Then by some miracle at the same time it was realised there was no year zero, it was decided Cyrus announced his degree in 537BC as opposed to 536BC. If this didn't change the only alternative upon a realisation of no year zero would be to move the date forward to 1915, but we all know that was never going to happen.

Scholar ... Further, what also proves the validity of WT Bible based chronology as developed by those 'celebrated WT scholars' is the simple fact that 607 BCE nicely and providentially begins the prophetic period of the Gentile Times ending in 1914 CE. Such a fact inspires faith and it is faith that forms the basis of prophecy.

Interesting point, to JW's it is faith that forms the basis of this prophecy.

Paul