Sumerian texts and the Bible

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    sinis posted Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:05:00 GMT(2/4/2008)

    Post 686 of 1848
    Joined 5/24/2005

    I have been doing a lot more research lately on the issue of religion, its beginnings, as well as civilizations, namely the oldest known culture of Sumer. I have posted some other findings on the relationship between Yahweh and Satan, and the indication, according to the Sumerian texts that they were brothers. It is also interesting to note that most of the initial creation stories, and flood stories, are not unique to the Jews but are in fact a rip off of the Sumerian texts - which predate any other civilization.

    As we all know, the "New Testament" does not contain the Jewish name of "God" or Yahweh. Jesus indicated that the scribes and religious leaders of the day did not know his father nor worshipped him, and that his father required mercy and not sacrifice. So who were the Jews worshipping the entire time? Who was Jesus implying was his "father"?

    According to Sumerian texts Enki (Satan) created man and animals and his brother Enlil (jehovah) created the earth and sky. A rift came between them (much like the parable of Cain and Able / Esau and Jacob), and although Satan was the eldest of the brothers (their father was An chief Sumer god), Yahwehs mother held a higher rank (Yahweh and Satan, according to Sumer texts had different mothers), because of this Yahweh was given precedence in the Pantheon of Gods.

    Eventually Yahweh would rule over both Earth and its creation. Each brother was considered an immortal, therefore if you wanted to hurt the other, you would not fight each other as it would make no sense, rather it would make more sense that you attack the objects of affection or creation of each respective brother. For this reason Jehovah tells Adam and Eve that they will work hard to cultivate the land (thus Jehovah makes life miserable for man by withdrawing his aid from Earth, which he made). He also instructs future generations that they should burn animal sacrifices, and that the odor is sweet to his nose. Hmmmm. Could it be that Jehovah purposely desired to hurt his older brother Satan an in indirect way by advising men to destroy the very creatures that his brother created?

    Finally, Jehovah forbidded the people from exploring the occult or afterlife. Why? The Bible confirms that the spirit survives death when Saul had Samuels spirit invoked by a witch. Why would Jehovah not want people to know of an afterlife or look into the dead?

    Could it be that he wants to control men to some degree and purposely tries to limit mans "knowledge" (sounds a bit like the test in the garden - Sumer texts say that Satan gave "knowledge" to the "first humans" as the Gods were using humans as slaves) on this world, so that humans are obedient only to him (Jehovah)? Did Satan, knowing he was bumped down in the pantheon hierarchy, take the next step and create another world beyond the grasp of his brother (Yahweh) were men would go after they died and truely be happy? Is this world we live in a failed attempt at the life that Satan wanted for his creation, and thus a first step into a transition? It would seem so, especially when Satan in Genesis tells Eve that she WOULD NOT DIE and that they would both be like gods knowing good and bad.

    If this is the case then who was Jesus addressing when he said that the Pharisees were from their father, the father of the ORIGINAL lie? Could Jehovah have been the father of the lie by telling men that they would die in the DAY of eating of the fruit - trying to persuade the first humans NOT to take the "knowledge" offered to them by Satan by threatening them with death? No doubt the bible has been translated to fit the religious mindset of the day. Names may have been inserted/deleted (Jehovah /Satan) and stories may have been altered to paint a new picture on who was good and who was bad, when in actuality it may not have originally been the case as many of the Sumerian texts illustrate.

    If you look at the OT records it is obvious that Jehovah had contempt for the Jews, and that he was a piss poor God. After all why would he forbid the entering of Moses into the promised land for a slip up of words? Also, the sumerian glyphs depict Jehovah in a bull form, and Enki (Satan) with the caduceus. Hmmm. Moses and Aaron make a golden calf... and later when the Jews are bit by snakes sent by Jehovah, Moses erects a copper serpent for the people to look at to be saved (shouldn't this have been idol worship)? Does Yahweh not have the means of medicine and extension of life and therefore the symbol was made to ask for Enki's (Satan's) assistance?

    Very interesting similarities.

    Satanus posted Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:23:00 GMT(2/4/2008)

    Post 12778 of 21303
    Joined 8/31/2001

    Some interesting ideas. The thought that jesus' father was not the traditional jewish god is especially so. Considering the fact that he never used the jewish yhwh, or that it wasn't in the nt adds wieght to that theory. Is there any original source material from the sumerians?

    S

    sinis posted Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:45:00 GMT(2/4/2008)

    Post 687 of 1848
    Joined 5/24/2005

    Here are some online articles. Most of the stuff I have been reading is an books, but it collaborates with the web sites.

    http://www.halexandria.org/dward184.htm

    Enki and the caduceus:

    alt

    Another picture of Enki and the twin serpent. Hmmm double Helix, could it be for DNA? After all several Sumerian glyphs depict what look like

    a lab setting when it talks of the creation story.

    alt

    Enlil (bull) and his wife Ninlil:

    alt

    Here's one for you... was Jesus the incarnated Enki, the mastercraftsman and HEALER willing to die or somehow ransom his creation out of his brothers (jehovahs) hands?

    sinis posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:03:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 688 of 1848
    Joined 5/24/2005

    Also... Why is it that Jesus told Satan (who in the text may have very well been Jehovah) that he did not desire or want the kingdoms of the EARTH as his kingdom was not part of THIS WORLD? Also why did he say that MAN must not live on BREAD (product and creation of Jehovah) alone? Things to think about...

    Here is another interesting site with glyphs.

    http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html

    Enki, the king of the Abzu, overpowering in his majesty, speaks up with authority:
    ’My father, the king of the universe,
    Brought me into existence in the universe,
    My ancestor, the king of all the lands,
    Gathered together all the, ME’s, placed the me’s in my hand.
    From the Ekur, the house of Enlil,
    I brought craftsmanship to my Abzu of Eridu.
    I am the fecund seed, engendered by the great wild ox, I am the first born son of An,
    I am the "great storm" who goes forth out of the "great below," I am the lord of the Land,
    I am the gugal of the chieftains, I am the father of all the lands,
    I am the "big brother" of the gods, I am he who brings full prosperity,
    I am the record keeper of heaven and earth,
    I am the car and the mind of all the lands,
    I am he who directs justice with the king An on An’s dais,
    I am he who decrees the fates with Enlil in the "mountain of wisdom,"
    He placed in my hand the decreeing of the fates of the "place where the sun rises,"
    I am he to whom Nintu pays due homage,
    I am he who has been called a good name by Ninhursag,
    I am the leader of the Anunnaki,
    I am he who has been born as the first son of the holy An.
    After the lord had uttered (his) exaltedness,
    After the great Prince had himself pronounced his praise,
    The Anunnaki came before him in prayer and supplication:
    ’Lord who directs craftsmanship,
    Who makes decisions, the glorified; Enki praise!’
    For a second time, because of his great joy,:
    Enki, the king of the Abzu, in his majesty, speaks up with authority
    ’I am the lord, I am one whose command is unquestioned, I am the
    foremost in all things,
    At my command the stalls have been built, the sheepfolds have been enclosed,
    When I approached heaven a rain of prosperity poured down from heaven,
    When I approached the earth, there was a high flood,
    When I approached its green meadows,
    The heaps and mounds were piled up at my word.


    [After the almost unintelligible description of Enki’s rites, Enki proceeds to decree the fates of a number of cities. Ur is one example.]
    He proceeded to the shrine Ur,
    Enki, the king of the Abzu decrees its fate:
    City possessing all that is appropriate, water-washed, firm-standing ox,
    Dais of abundance of the highland, knees open, green like a mountain,
    Hashur-grove, wide of shade-he who is lordly because of his might
    Has directed your perfect ME’s,
    Enlil, the "great mountain," has pronounced your lofty -name in the universe.
    City whose fate has been decreed by Enlil,
    Shrine Ur, may you rise heaven high


    [Enki next stocks the land with various items of prosperity: A deity is placed in charge of each. For example:]
    He directed the plow and the . . . yoke,
    The great prince Enki put the ’horned oxen’ in the . . . Opened the holy furrows,
    Made grow the grain in the cultivated field.
    The lord who do-ns the diadem, the ornament of the high plain,
    The robust, the farmer of Enlil, Enkimdu, the man of the ditch and dike,
    Enki placed in charge of them.
    The lord called the cultivated field, put there the checkered grain,
    Heaped up its . . . grain, the checkered grain, the innuba-grain into piles,
    Enki multiplied the heaps and mounds,
    With Enlil he spread wide the abundance in the Land,
    Her whose head and side are dappled, whose face is honey-covered,
    The Lady, the procreatress, the vigour of the Land, the ’life’ of the black-heads,
    Ashnan, the nourishing bread, the bread of all,
    Enki placed in charge of them.
    He built stalls, directed the purification rites,
    Erected sheepfolds, put there the best fat and milk,
    Brought joy to the dining halls of the gods,
    In the vegetation-like plain he made prosperity prevail.


    He filled the Ehur, the house of Enlil, with possessions,
    Enlil rejoiced with Enki, Nippur was joyous,
    He fixed the borders, demarcated them with boundary stones,
    Enki, for the Anunnaki,
    Erected dwelling places in the cities,
    Set up kids for them in the countryside,
    The hero, the bull who comes forth out of the hashur (forest), who roars lion-like,
    The valiant Utu, the bull who stands secure, who proudly displays his power,
    The father of the great city, the place where the sun rises, the great herald of holy An,
    The judge, the decision-maker of the gods,
    Who wears a lapis lazuli beard, who comes forth from the holy heaven,
    the .. . heaven,
    Utu, the son born of Ningal,
    Enki placed in charge of the entire universe.
    M jwfacts posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:14:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 3740 of 8014
    Joined 6/25/2005

    interesting

    M Narkissos posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:36:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 8102 of 9516
    Joined 9/27/2003

    This is all very interesting but I suggest you should give some thought to how the history of beliefs and ideas actually works. Myths from widely different periods, places, civilisations and languages are not simply interchangeable, nor can they be mixed to make up one "true story". It is pointless to superpose characters like Yahweh and Satan (remember that "Satan" only comes up at a late stage in a long evolution of Yahweh himself, through polytheism, henotheism and monotheism) upon Sumerian gods as if they were "the same (actually existing?) persons". At most religious history can point to possible indirect influences of one myth on another, and there are many cultural intermediaries between Sumer and the Bible texts which imply a lot of changes along the way. The "truth" doesn't lie either upstream or downstream of this process -- every stage makes sense for itself.

    M jwfacts posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:51:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 3741 of 8014
    Joined 6/25/2005

    I just wanted to confirm, the Sumerian texts use the word Enki and Enlil. Do they ever use Satan and YHWH, or is that a parallel being drawn in the books you are reading?

    M OBVES posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:07:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 850 of 523
    Joined 12/26/2001

    There are many similarities in all christian religions and yet only one is accepted by God Yahweh - God of the Bibles all christian religion use !

    So , if someone is trying to resort to other sacred books they on an extremely dangerous course !

    The Bible is the Bible and what it is in there is to be trusted .Only from the Bible we gain the true knowledge of God Yahweh . There is no need for any other alllegedly sacred books . For instance the Koran . It has similartities but throughout ages there was no single beliver of the Koran accepted by God Yahweh as He shows in the Bible how we can approach Him .

    One small mistep in using computer I bought in 1998 AD cost me a whole lot ! One small mistake and the spaceship can hit the ground.

    You have to belive in God Yahweh as He precisely prescribes and the Bible is the only inspired source now to use and to find God Yahweh.

    M Shazard posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 09:27:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 431 of 457
    Joined 12/23/2005

    And you believe Shumerians because... ????

    sinis posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 17:26:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 689 of 1848
    Joined 5/24/2005

    The Sumerian texts do not implicitly say yahweh or Satan, the coorelation comes from the creation account of the Sumerians, which is far older than the account of Genesis. The Biblical Genesis account is identical to the Sumerian account. Lest we forget that Abraham lived in the city of Ur (Sumerian city) and that Jewish tradition indicates that at a given age he was taken to the temple by his father to choose a god. The account says that he foresook the god of his forefathers (Enki) and choose Enlil who later became known as Yahweh.

    As to why I would accept the Sumer accounts over the bible, simple - the Sumerians lived far before the Jewish civilization, and are the oldest known culture. Wouldn't it makes sense to look into the oldest known culture, as they may be closer to the "facts" than the others?

    Sure Obves, I'll believe the slanted Jewish account over older sacred books - yea right!

    http://www.livius.org/es-ez/etemenanki/etemenanki.html

    http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr114.htm

    9-17An artfully made bright crenellation rising out from the abzu was erected for lord Nudimmud . He built the temple from precious metal, decorated it with lapis lazuli, and covered it abundantly with gold. In Eridug , he built the house on the bank. Its brickwork makes utterances and gives advice. Its eaves roar like a bull; the temple of Enki bellows. During the night the temple praises its lord and offers its best for him.

    All I'm saying is to explore other ideas. The Sumerians, in there text, supposedly name the ascensions of their kings back to almost 450,000 years ago. Is it possible, that man is the offspring or product of another race perhaps not from this world, wherein they became "gods" - which is what religion has been based upon?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_king_list

    Pre-dynastic

    Ante-diluvian kings, legendary, or earlier than ca. 29th century BC. Their rules are measured in sars - periods of 3600 years - the next unit up after 60 in Sumerian counting (3600 = 60x60), and in ners - units of 600.

    "After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug (Eridu). In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years."

    "Then Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to Bad-tibira."

    "Then Bad-tibira fell and the kingship was taken to Larag (Larsa)."

    "Then Larag fell and the kingship was taken to Zimbir (Sippar)."

    "Then Zimbir fell and the kingship was taken to Shuruppag (Shuruppak)."

    "Then the flood swept over."

    The Sumers also talk of a "Great War" before their time. Interesting to note that green glass has been found in several places around the earth, as has radioactive skeletons. Makes you wonder.

    http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/ancatomicwar1.html

    http://www.s8int.com/atomic1.html

    "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." Genesis 6......

    Gurkha,
    flying a swift and powerful vimana
    hurled a single projectile
    Charged with all the power of the Universe.
    An incandescent column of smoke and flame
    As bright as the thousand suns
    Rose in all its splendour...
    a perpendicular explosion
    with its billowing smoke clouds...
    ...the cloud of smoke
    rising after its first explosion
    formed into expanding round circles
    like the opening of giant parasols...
    ..it was an unknown weapon,
    An iron thunderbolt,
    A gigantic messenger of death,
    Which reduced to ashes
    The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
    ...The corpses were so burned
    As to be unrecognizable.
    The hair and nails fell out;
    Pottery broke without apparent cause,
    And the birds turned white.
    After a few hours
    All foodstuffs were infected...
    ...to escape from this fire
    The soldiers threw themselves in streams
    To wash themselves and their equipment.

    Ancient verses from the Mahabharata: (6500 B.C.?)

    F Legolas posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:26:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 4952 of 4498
    Joined 7/11/2005

    Great posts Sinis!

    I've been doing research on this lately.

    Have you ever read "The Sirius Mystery" by Robert Termple?...Good book.

    I've read "The End of Days" by Zacharia Stichen, but there's many people who put him down so I stayed away from his other books.

    Are there any books that you would recommend?

    Leolaia posted Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:32:00 GMT(2/5/2008)

    Post 10808 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002

    I had much the same thoughts as Narkissos when I read the OP; having Sumerian gods glossed as "Yahweh" and "Satan" is especially misleading and anachronistic. The personae of Yahweh and Satan reflect late henotheistic and monotheistic developments in Judean religion that do not neatly correspond to concepts in third millenium BC polytheistic religion and Satan especially, in his full dualistic role, is not even contemporaneous with pre-exilic Yahwism. So the OP has the rather odd circumstance of utilizing a very late Jewish reading of the Eden narrative in Genesis (one which inserts the character of Satan into the story) to establish a parallel with a very early Sumerian mythology, and it retells a character arc of Sumerian mythology with the Hebraic names Yahweh and Satan replacing the actual names -- implying that the deities Yahweh and Satan at some point in their history were believed to have been brothers, who were co-creaters of heaven, earth, and man, etc. etc. The actual development of Jewish religion was very different than presented in the OP, such that Satan only developed as a significant character in the post-exilic period under the influence of monotheism and dualism, with Yahweh originating in the pre-exilic period as a henotheistic tutelary deity of Judah and Israel, drawing directly upon the Canaanite gods of El and Baal (representing a henotheistic merger between the two major deities), with the far older Canaanite religion being itself influenced by Sumerian and Akkadian religion -- such that Baal-Hadad drew on aspects of Ellil (< Enlil), and Yahweh drew on aspects of Baal. It was not a matter of Israelite religion being a "rip-off" of Sumerian religion; it was rather a natural direct outgrowth of native Canaanite religion that itself was influenced by Mesopotamian religion....so it was an indirect influence, although there was also possibly influence during the exile of Neo-Babylonian-era religious concepts (such as the syncretism of Baal/Yahweh and Tammuz), although Persian influence seems to have been more distinct in literature of a post-exilic date. So, in other words, the names "Enlil" and "Enki" do not appear in the OT but El and Baal and Asherah do, and it was the Canaanite religion that the latter pertain to that was the main, direct influence.

    Also, rather than appealing to a (semi)-fictional/traditional character in a patriarchical narrative and a late midrashic Jewish legend (dating to the first century AD) as evidence that the ancestors of the Israelites knew of Sumerian religion, it is better to mention actual early evidence that the Canaanite forebearers were familiar with Sumerian and Akkadian myths, such as Ellil in Ugaritic texts at Ras Shamra or the LBA copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh that was was discovered at Megiddo, or unmistakable evidence of influence in later texts, such as the biblical flood narrative or "Gilgamesh" (and possibly Utnapishtim) mentioned in the Jewish Book of Giants in the Enochic corpus.

    M Fadeout posted Wed, 06 Feb 2008 00:36:00 GMT(2/6/2008)

    Post 15 of 555
    Joined 10/20/2007

    If in 6,000 years the Bible has become so corrupted from the true version of events, and you feel better about getting your info from the presumably more accurate Sumerian texts, and they tell you that King so-and-so reigned for 38,000 years, doesn't that pretty much blow out of the water any chance that your Sumerian texts are not equally corrupted?

    After tens of thousands of years, does it really matter if one story is a couple millenia older than another? They'll both be in pretty bad shape.

    sinis posted Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:18:00 GMT(2/6/2008)

    Post 691 of 1848
    Joined 5/24/2005

    Not if the "gods" that religion teaches are not human. Does anyone really think its as black and white as the bible teaches? Explain the sites that indicate nuclear glass in Egypt, Ireland, India, etc. Explain why the skeltons in some digs are radioactive at a rate of 50 times greater than the Hiroshima affects. Explain how the kings ascensions are linked to events in the heavens (stars, comets, etc.) that coincide with astronomy?

    Leolaia posted Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:15:00 GMT(2/6/2008)

    Post 10814 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002
    Does anyone really think its as black and white as the bible teaches? Explain the sites that indicate nuclear glass in Egypt, Ireland, India, etc. Explain why the skeltons in some digs are radioactive at a rate of 50 times greater than the Hiroshima affects.

    These questions have nothing to do with Sumerian texts, unless you've been reading Zecharia Sitchin, and Sitchin is not a credible source on Sumerian myths and texts (and that is quite an understatement...much of what he writes about Sumerian texts is total BS).

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