States of hypnosis - getting people to face facts

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    M Qcmbr posted Fri, 23 Mar 2012 21:52:00 GMT(3/23/2012)

    Post 2426 of 3437
    Joined 7/31/2004

    Was looking at hypnosis ( always wondered why it works so well on some people - not because I want to convince everyone I meet to be my slaves - honestly ;) ) and I read something that stopped me in my tracks. The articles author stated that most of the time we are in a state of hypnosis which is no more than our automated systems taking over from our conscious ones for example, when we drive home and realise we didn't think too hard about driving we just 'arrive home' we are in a mild hypnotic state; when we get immersed in a movie and lose our sense of where we are we are in a suggestible world where we potentially get moved by what we see etc. All these are indicators of our conscious self focusing in such a way that our actual behaviours are handed over to our sub-conscious brain which is also our long term learning process. A program I watched (Horizon) also mentioned this idea that our sub-conscious is responsible for a majority of our behaviour - when we first play a sport/instrument we play it slowly and awkwardly thinking each step through but as it transfers to our sub-conscious brain controlling areas it becomes natural and unforced.

    Could almost all of religion and its hold over us be explained by this sub-conscious / hypnotic state of our brains? Repetition, re-read scriptures, messages inculcated into our sub- conscious via hymns and so on are all hypnotic practices leading us to perform our religious lives in a mild trance such that we consciously switch off allowing our sub-conscious to get us though a service, knock on doors, feel guilt at disobeying, avoid 'dangers' etc. In fact this trancelike state is our normal day to day state - for the religious the subconscious is trained to obey the main tenents for everyone else its whatever they've allowed themeselves to become. Could this also explain why it is so difficult to reach someone with facts and criticism and why there is a recognition that people have to want to discover the truth about the 'truth' themselves? Appealing to someone using our conscious self is almost impossible , especially for a long term member , because the actual belief is in the sub-conscious and the conscious self doesn't do much more than act as doorkeeper. This could be why our conscious self is more moral than our sub-conscious self (conscious I wouldn't kill my daughter but a religious sub-conscious me could ) and why religious people can take the most immoral of social positions yet feel genuinely moral.

    A trick for getting people to do what you want is to confuse the conscious brain and insert your behaviour/suggestion into that confused space (so a con man might approach you like a life long friend and as we struggle to adapt they've picked your pocket ; a funny advert makes you laugh and then sells you the product and so on). This would be why many of us look back to a particular moment when our mental dam broke, something snapped, our conscious self was shocked and allowed the doubt/fact/revelation into our subconscious self (which seems powerless to defend itself once the conscious self has stopped guarding the gates.) Our tactic to help our family/friends out of any controlling meme must be to look for shocks and or to provide suggestions only during certain trance states when the conscious self is dulled. My example (I know I'm blathering on but this is quite exciting for me.)

    I took 2 years+ of solid research to come to the conclusion my faith was a sham but I presented this information to my wife and she didnt reject me because it was also at the same time we were both fuming at a seperate situation where the church had really failed so we were both agitated and she was defending me from local church leaders. Since her conscious self was in 'defend hubby' mode and shocked by church leadership behaviour I was able to present my information in a matter of a few hours and get most of it direct to her sub conscious without an extended period of rejection/ fear and defense of her beliefs. Now she's almost out.

    This whole principle could be at the root of why some people are so persuasive - they've learnt to shock or lull the conscious brain by key words, actions, physical touches , socially forward or humorous behaviours so allowing them to say what they want direct to our sub-conscious while our conscious self is dazzled/confused.

    M Qcmbr posted Fri, 23 Mar 2012 21:55:00 GMT(3/23/2012)

    Post 2427 of 3437
    Joined 7/31/2004

    ..also if someone writes something awesome (like above) they can ruin it by makin spelin misstaks becos that usis the conshus brain to parse the garbled crap so making many people to reject someone's thoughts because of poor spelling or grammar. ;)

    breakfast of champions posted Fri, 23 Mar 2012 22:17:00 GMT(3/23/2012)

    Post 1298 of 3989
    Joined 5/30/2011

    Not an expert on hypnosis, but it does seem to be some sort of dissociative state that some readily experience, not unlike the daily commute which Is automatized and largely forgotten by most people.

    I have a feeling I am not particularly hypnotizable, but I still fell for the JW bullshit. Go figure.

    cofty posted Fri, 23 Mar 2012 22:24:00 GMT(3/23/2012)

    Post 2938 of 13776
    Joined 12/19/2009
    Appealing to someone using our conscious self is almost impossible , especially for a long term member , because the actual belief is in the sub-conscious and the conscious self doesn't do much more than act as doorkeeper.

    I think you are right. It reminds me of the way Derren Brown manipulates people in the most astonishing ways with simple audible and visual cues.

    I'm reading an interesting book at the moment by Daniel Dennett called "Consciousness Explained". I willl let you know if it sheds any light on your idea.

    breakfast of champions posted Fri, 23 Mar 2012 22:33:00 GMT(3/23/2012)

    Post 1300 of 3989
    Joined 5/30/2011

    COFTY - if you enjoy Denett's book, you might also like "Self Comes to Mind" by Antonio Damasio. More neurosciency than philosophical, and gets a bit dense in spots, but still thought-provoking.

    M Qcmbr posted Sat, 24 Mar 2012 06:32:00 GMT(3/24/2012)

    Post 2429 of 3437
    Joined 7/31/2004

    Thanks Cofty !

    M Qcmbr posted Sat, 24 Mar 2012 06:32:00 GMT(3/24/2012)

    Post 2430 of 3437
    Joined 7/31/2004

    Thanks Cofty !

    Witness My Fury posted Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:52:00 GMT(3/24/2012)

    Post 945 of 2838
    Joined 5/11/2010

    I agree it seems to take something "shocking" to jolt the sub conscious and get past the cult personality that will rationalise away lesser points of contention with the cult.

    That's not to say the smaller points are unimportant, but the aha moment will take a larger shock to work. 607 bce finally being debunked by The Gentile Times Reconsidered was mine...

    Amelia Ashton posted Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:49:00 GMT(3/24/2012)

    Post 636 of 1915
    Joined 11/2/2010

    Cantleave got manipulated by Derren Brown 10 days ago at one of his shows and so did my daughter.

    On stage she picked out 4 numbers randomly from a table full of numbered cubes and when she popped the balloon she had grabbed earlier the numbers she had picked from the table corresponded exactly with the numbers on a folded ticket inside the balloon. If that can be done in full view of over 2000 people imagine what can be done covertly.

    cofty posted Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:51:00 GMT(3/24/2012)

    Post 2954 of 13776
    Joined 12/19/2009

    Its truly amazing and even more so when he tells everybody exactly how he does it and it still works!

    FatFreek 2005 posted Sat, 24 Mar 2012 18:55:00 GMT(3/24/2012)

    Post 619 of 904
    Joined 2/17/2010

    Hi Quke,

    You make some very good points. Most make sense to me.

    Len

    still thinking posted Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:33:00 GMT(3/26/2012)

    Post 2564 of 7522
    Joined 3/11/2011

    Very interesting...I do feel a bit like I have awoken from a trance. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say religion and belief is hypnotic...especially if we think we will benefit from it.

    Religion and belief appeal to our subconscience because it lulls us...we can tune out anything negative and focus on the positive...then we can hypnotise others with the joy of it all...LOL the JWs go on about tickling the ears....ha ha...thats exactly what they do when they recruit.

    talesin posted Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:21:00 GMT(3/26/2012)

    Post 11395 of 14541
    Joined 6/24/2003

    Q - yes! For me, this goes under the heading of "things I learned in therapy". In fact, she used the exact same example of driving somewhere, and not remembering the whole trip.

    *and the light keeps getting brighter*

    :)

    tal

    Violia posted Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:37:00 GMT(3/26/2012)

    Post 2842 of 3532
    Joined 4/11/2009

    One day I visualized C.T. Russel -a young man searching for meaning of life- and it was near the turn of the century and apocalyptic rantings were common. I had a moment of clarity. CT Russel was just some guy who thought the end was near and started a religion. That was all it was. That does not sound like much but it was what shook me into reality. Since then I see the Wts for what they are, just another religion started near the turn of the century -playing on peoples fears and hopes for a savior.

    BTW, hypnosis is interesting and can be very helpful .

    Chariklo posted Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:38:00 GMT(3/26/2012)

    Post 649 of 2623
    Joined 5/9/2011
    I took 2 years+ of solid research to come to the conclusion my faith was a sham but I presented this information to my wife and she didnt reject me because it was also at the same time we were both fuming at a seperate situation where the church had really failed so we were both agitated and she was defending me from local church leaders. Since her conscious self was in 'defend hubby' mode and shocked by church leadership behaviour I was able to present my information in a matter of a few hours and get most of it direct to her sub conscious without an extended period of rejection/ fear and defense of her beliefs. Now she's almost out.

    Qcmbr, that's almost an exact description of how I came to get taken in by the WT.

    Uncanny.

    I have a feeling I am not particularly hypnotizable, but I still fell for the JW bullshit. Go figure.

    Breakfast of champions, that also counts for me too. Weird.

    talesin posted Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:22:00 GMT(3/26/2012)

    Post 11396 of 14541
    Joined 6/24/2003

    @ Violia

    BTW, hypnosis is interesting and can be very helpful .

    Agreed! The JWs teach that it is a 'scary' thing, and people can control your mind with it. Malarkey! It's a wonderful healing tool, and self-hypnosis has helped me to deal with the unbearable pain in my foot for the past 2 years, without the use of narcotics.

    tal

    Band on the Run posted Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:32:00 GMT(3/26/2012)

    Post 4743 of 9802
    Joined 12/18/2010

    I was hynoptized even tho I was very skeptical. In fact, when the psychologist ordered me to raise my arm, I started laughing so hard b/c it was so hokey! Guess whose arm went up? It felt as tho some outside force was raising it. I was trying to let it stick to my side in defiance. The parlor trick convinced me.

    I tried other times but I'm not certain. They told me to raise my arm and felt no urge to raise it. I was supposedly in a light but still effective state. My body was extremely relaxed. It felt abnormal but not weird.

    They all warned against doing it with just anyone.

    I don't see religion as bad even if it borders on hynoptic. My favorite services are Taize services, an ecumenical community in France. There is special music. I do relaxation techniques. When I start, I only go for dinner with church members. I am convinced I will only sit for five minutes and leave. Everytime I end up staying and want to continue forever. It is painful to stop.

    I'm Episcopal and there is much repetition. It makes sense that there is brain chemistry and biological responses to religion. I never felt relief with the Witnesses. The clock seemed stuck in endless time.

    Eastern religions also use repetitive techniques. I like the repetition which goes against my Witness training. My church has elegant use of language. I don't think God cares if I do not use my brain to self-compose. Part of the appeal is the sense of community through time repeating the same creeds and chants.

    F Lady Lee posted Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:52:00 GMT(3/26/2012)

    Post 16432 of 14228
    Joined 6/29/2001

    The WTS and other cultic groups rely on the creation of the cultic personailty to contol its members. The monotony of study materials are essential to the process. They actively train people not to think for themselves. Read the paragraph - read the answer - no real discussion because you have to cover the whole chapter in one sitting, read the next paragraph. . .

    I have found that getting a JW into an emotional state, preferably a calm one, can help get them out of the cult personality. JWs are even taught to "put on the new personality"

    The phenomenon of highway hypnosis is a common dissociative experience for most people. Daydreaming while you are sitting at a meeting (lol not exactly wat the WT wants) is also a common dissociative experience.

    The indoctrination process is capitalized on by cults.

    Dissociation by itself is a natural and even healthy. But various forms of abuse (including spiritual abuse) takes dissociation into an unhealthy experience where people live in that dissociative state most of the time and rarely return to their normal state.

    Many people will revert to this cult personaity state and refer to it as like being in a fog or floating.

    The goal of people who leave cults is to get back to their normal state. For those who were born in that is a real challenge. They have to create a self with no idea of who they really are.

    jay88 posted Tue, 27 Mar 2012 00:39:00 GMT(3/27/2012)

    Post 835 of 797
    Joined 10/11/2010

    E=mc**2 = "Lady Lee"(They have to create a self with no idea of who they really are)

    ..................

    phe·nom·e·nal
    M geevee posted Tue, 27 Mar 2012 01:26:00 GMT(3/27/2012)

    Post 596 of 617
    Joined 12/7/2004

    I have studied hypnosis and am now a qualified clinical Hypnotherapist.

    One thing that really struck me from the start was the similarity between group hypnosis sessions and public prayer at the hall... acomplishes the same thing!

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