What's Your Opinion: Is Legal Marriage Important?

Hey Everyone,

So I've been thinking about marriage a lot lately, with same-sex marriages being approved in some states, banned in others, and flip-flopped in still others (see: California).

I recently read an article in my local newspaper about how marriage is a personal and religious union that has no business being in any of our laws, and that the laws should instead be for a legal domestic relationship, to establish and recognize legal families, and that marriage should be altogether separate from that. I really agreed with all that was said in the article.

I want to get married. But why? Because my family taught me marriage is important. Because that's what society dictates. Because of other, complicated reasons I may not be fully aware of...

So, I started thinking about what the word "marriage" means, and why it's important. And for a person who is not religious, like me, I am not sure why "marriage" is important. I think commitment is important, I think creating a family is important, especially when children are involved. Is saying you are each other's spouses enough? Is it a cop-out by one or both partners to simply say "we are married to each other, we are committed, you are my husband, I am your wife," and then do the paperwork later when and if necessary to protect your union legally?

So I did a quick search on the site to see if there were any similar threads, and finding none, I pose the following questions to you:

WHY IS MARRIAGE IMPORTANT?

DO YOU THINK MARRIAGE IS IMPORTANT? IF SO, WHY?

IF NOT, WHY NOT?

As a Jehovah's Witness I got disfellowshipped for sexual immorality. The rebel in me gladly lives with my partner of two years without marrying him. At this point he is waiting for me to decide if I am ready for marriage or not. I feel I am still growing up, and look forward to being a real adult. Though I'm getting closer to 30 all the time, being a JW until I was almost 25 didn't help me to grow up in a regular fashion. So now I am catching up, and doing alright, I think.

But I do want to be a wife, though I can't logically tell you why exactly. So, what do you think? Is marriage important to you, and why is it important?

Thanks,

GoddessRachel

But I do want to be a wife, though I can't logically tell you why exactly. So, what do you think? Is marriage important to you, and why is it important?

Rachel, I saw something while I was in Africa that taught me a life long lesson. I hope you will indulge me....

I learned that even though Americans and the United States in general is very much looked up to and admired, the vast majority have little desire to visit or even be/act American beyond a small curiosity. I was raised to think (even as a JW) that everyone wanted to be an American, and that wasn't true...

Why? They like their own culture, their homeland, and what they are used to. It amazed me to see just in the small time I was in one African country (Cameroon) the variety of ways and traditions that can be embraced as normal.

So then, that is my point. You were raised in a culture where to get married and be a wife was what people did. We are very much a product of our conditioning and environment. So are you. There is nothing wrong with fulfilling that implanted desire that was given to you by family and your native land.

Why marriage is important is not the question to be asked imo. It is better to know why it is important to you. I promise you, that is all that matters. You can embrace who you are, where you come from, and know that you are just as entitled to that as every other person on this planet, regardless of what those traditions may be from one person/group to the next...

For me, marriage is what my culture does. It is also why I am a supporter of gay marriage, because all of us deserve to behave in a manner that our culture promotes.

Thank you, AllTimeJeff, I appreciate your experience and definitely see the parallel to my wanting to be a wife.

I also really like the wording you chose for why you support same-sex marriage: "because all of us deserve to behave in a manner that our culture promotes."

Nicely put, Sir.

~Rachel

Doh, I meant to stick this topic in the Dating & Relationships section. Beginner's stupidity, my apologies.

Number 1: It's important to get semantics straight.  Are you talking about religious marriage or civil marriage?  Because the one word is used to describe two very different things - and in the hands of demogogues, gets abused in order to abuse.

Religious marriage is whatever a religion says it is for: in the West, usually its a license for sex and ostensibly creates the epitome of a Happy Home for child raising.  A) Note that often, when the 1 man/1 woman paradigm is demanded, an abusive parent is preferred over a missing one.  B) Note that in general society in these religions there are few if any mandated marriages when pregnancy occurs outside of wedlock, and no one seems willing to ban divorce, even in the case of the presence of children where 1 man/1 woman is supposed to be mandatory.  C) Note that 1 man/1 woman marriage is still offered to those who cannot conceive, and those who cannot engage in procreative activities.

Civil marriage creates a legal relationship.  It establishes property interests for both parties, and allows things like visiting your spouse in hospital.  In certain contexts it allows insurance and tax incentives not offered to singles.  When speaking about family being at the core of society, civil marriage gives a formal structure to how individuals might behave, gives protections and obligations, and assists individuals in working within a society whether in larger contexts (like affording a home) or smaller ones (spouses can often interact with vendors when they are not the primary name on an account).  For many, getting through life is eased a great deal by having a partner, and formal recognition of that relationship helps.

ATJ is certainly correct when he speaks to our socialization towards marriage as an ideal, and this probably is linked to a biologic desire for most to pair-bond.

Personally, I have no interest in religious marriage.  Perhaps due to my experiences, I have no desire for validation from an organized religion.  I have validation from my friends and family, that's more recognition than I need.

Civil marriage, however, offers protections and benefits that become ever more important as one matures.  Inheritance, health insurance, hospital visitation, tax obligations - these are managed by a simple document called a Marriage License.

WHY IS MARRIAGE IMPORTANT? - "marriage" has religious, social and legal meanings to an individual, depending on what you mean by marriage.  If you're part of a religion that demands it for spousal relationships, or if your part of the "religion of society" that has inculcated most of its members to desire it, it is emotionally important to satisfy its requirements; if you want to protect your interests and rights, it's legally important.

DO YOU THINK MARRIAGE IS IMPORTANT? IF SO, WHY? - pretty much answered, but at the end of the day I want my legal interests in property established and health decision-making in the hands of my spouse.  All the rest, I personally seem to have been inoculated against - although I will admit having participated in a marriage ceremony was a powerful symbol.

IF NOT, WHY NOT? - Religious and civil marriage should be separate.  No religion should be required to marry two people, no religion should be required for two people to marry.  There should be no religious discussion about civil marriage in the US, there is a separation of church and state (though that is often ignored).  That doesn't really answer "if not, why not", but then it is meant to change the conversation.

Void!!!!!  Hugs and kisses Mister!!!

  GODDESS RACHEL- Legal marriage is good for many reasons . One big reason my wife and I have talked about is that me being an ex-witness it gives my wife the legal right to insist on blood transfusions if a medical emergency happened - in case my witness relatives tried forcing the " no-blood transfusion " pressure on the doctors. If you are married your mate makes that decision if you can't physically. So that is a protection for sure. And it is a protection for property rights etc. So there are benefits, yes.  Whether I'm married or not - I still treat my wife like she's my girlfriend ! It's all in attitude !    Peace out, Mr. Flipper

@beks: I was not here.  Heh.  ;-)

Just to re-define what marriage is for a moment... a life long commitment between two indivduals who wish to share the rest of their lives together in a loving environment (children optional).  My husband and I had that for the first 8 years before we actually did the paperwork! all 3 of our kids were there with us in the court house on the day- no church envolved/or KH- life went straight back to normal afterwards, we really only just did the paperwork for legal reasons- we already had the marriage + kids+ dept already lol 

I think most of us seem to forget that a wedding is one act- the marriage is a life style choice, that can funtion with or without the paper work (but like Flipper said- that one peice of paper can potentially save your life!)

If you want to get married- Go for it! Best Wishes and Enjoy Your Futures Together

ATJ and Void...

What wonderful responses, thank you, everyone!

VoidEater, you nailed it. I don't want a religious marriage. I do want the protection afforded me by my legal spouse. I intend to marry at City Hall or by a Justice of the Peace at the beach, someday, when I do get married.

Flipper, you bring up a point that has me quaking in my boots a bit (even though I'm actually in my bare feet), that makes me want to run to the court house with my man tomorrow (it's too late today, I think!): JW families making my medical decisions. YIKES. Not in my best interest.

Lillith, thank you for your thoughtful and well-thought answer. I do consider our relationship a marriage in the important sense of the word, in the commitment we have for one another. The only thing missing in the moment is the paperwork!

I am sure we will get married someday, and ultimately the reasons aren't that important, as long as it is important to us, we can do it. And yes, Flipper, I plan to treat him as my boyfriend - and I'm his girlfriend - until the end of time, or the end of one of us, whichever comes first. That's too important to let go!

I mostly thought this was an interesting discussion to present to the ex-JW community, to see if people felt similarly as me about it, and if you think your opinion is colored by your JW history.

Those questions sound like for an entirely different thread, but there you go. Anyone want to expand further on this? Thanks and I appreciate all comments on the topic of "marriage."

I think that it is scientifically objectively true that children who have  parents of both sexes with  a good relationship with each other (usually positive interchanges and good conflict resolution) are more likely to grow up to be happy and to be good citizens.  I think any government legislation surrounding marriage should encourage the raising of healthy children. 

I don't think marriage is important.  One's word and an asessment of character is the best you can do for long term planning.  Divorce law only stacks artificial consequences on top of a pre-existing agreement.

If I ever get married it will be to have children.  Any promises I make will revolve around the children, not my wife.  People change.  I cannot control this, nor would I if I could. 

Until 120 years ago thinking of marriage as a means of self-fullfillment would have been odd for most people.  Marriage has traditionally been a practical matter, with family being the unit of business and production.  I think any legislation on the subject should be purely practical and that no religious notions should be enforced by law.  I am for paying taxes to help raise children as good citizens.  This can be fully incentivised without the need to promote religious morals.

I would like civil family licenses, not civil marriage licenses. 

 Marriage when it is done for the right reasons can be very rewarding!  

 One thing is A MUST to maintain a long, happy marriage: Absolutely  NOTHING  can be more important to you than your Marriage:  NOT a religion, or an ex-spouse, or a co-worker: Nothing.

 Here's a good comparison:  A legal marriage is a lot like a  buying a house:  If you take care of it, work to maintain it in good condition, it will be there for you  in your old age. 

YC

Legal marriage is only important if it saves extra money on taxes or if it gets one of you onto a good medical insurance plan.

Otherwise... the ritual itself can be very nice for a rite of passage... but even that doesn't have to be legal.

All the best to you both, regardless!

Love,
Baba.

Rachel- the legal reason was during my 2 years stint as an almost JW- so I could get baptised-  LOL it was a silly reason to me then and it still is now- God doesnt care about papwork- men do!  but the point about it being legally protective in cases like flipper stated, was my main reason for asking my man to sign on the dotted line (he's not/ never has been a JW- thank G_d!)

     I can see both sides of the marriage debate- it helps children to feel secure that they have a real family and committed parents. However, how practical is it to promise a person that you will never love another for as long as you shall live? People change so much and loves grow and fade. When my husband first asked me, I told him that I loved him more than anyone, but that I could not make a promise that more than 50% of people do not keep because I respected him too much. He respected my honesty and our relationship grew even stronger. Eventually, I came to appreciate his high regard for marriage and he was the person that I trusted more than anyone that I had ever met. I knew that he would never intentionally hurt me or beak my heart, so we did get married and I have been happy with my best friend ever since. So, I guess what I am saying is that I only believe in marriage if both people are realistic about it, communicate openly, and really respect each other. Otherwise, I think that it is a legal institution that so many people hold in very little regard. I had to come to respect the institution and my husband before I could make that promise. Just my two cents.      

GoddessRachel,

Topic should be put dating and Relationship. I think it too late or you can go a head and do it. Well, people wants to get married to enjoy the feel of being loved and to have family as well as to fit into society mould. Some people do better by not getting married at all or get married but decide not to have kids. However, recently, the family is undergoing tranformation. Some couple prefer to adopt while others go for same sex marriage, a fact you have already pointed out. By the way, you have my PM. Please, check for it. It was sent about a week ago.

AllTime Jeff, You have my PM too. Pleaese, let me know if you got it.

Scott77

Right now I'm of the mind that I would rather live with my partner than get married.  Though I was taught marriage was important and that you couldn't have sex without being married the idea of it never took.  We live in a time when peoples' affection change and I would not want someone to be "tied" to me because divorce was too expensive or because a piece of paper. 

I do however see certain legal aspects of marriage being important.

Mr Flipper-I still treat my wife like she's my girlfriend !- ha! give yourself a big attaboy pat on the back for that!

Gabriella, your post is pretty much how I feel about it. I respect myself and my partner too much to get married ... yet. But someday, that is our plan. We have talked about where we want our relationship to go, and the tentative timeline for that. We have talked about one day getting married from the very beginning and then yearly since then. If we stay on the track we are currently on, I think we will be ready for marriage in a few years. Of course, I recently read a quote that said "If you want to make God laugh, tell her your plans," so of course I take that sort of thing - life and its unpredictability - into consideration. Though I do think marriage is important, and this discussion has given me a lot to think about in terms of why I feel that way, or whether or not it even matters why I think it is important, the bottom line is that I think marriage is too important to just assume you can get a divorce if it does not work out. Forever is a long time, and I only intend to make that promise to one man. When I am ready.

As far as marriage itself goes, I believe all humans deserve equal rights. If we are not willing to pass laws allowing same sex marriages, then we must completely redefine marriage until the laws can give equal rights to everyone. That is how I feel about it.

LouBelle, I am with you as well. I feel a bit like it is not that important, that the commitment is there, the trust is there, and the official marriage will follow when the time is right. I really do not want anyone to ever be with me because of a piece of paper. I am afraid at this time in my life I would be the kind of wife who stops putting forth an effort; that is a fear I have. So I would have to be convinced that I would continue to do all the nice things I do as his girlfriend, and be his girlfriend forever, even when I am his wife.

Scott77, I realized that at about post # 3, that this is in the wrong section. Sorry about that. I am not sure if I am able to move the topic myself or not? I may have to check that out. I will check my PMs but you may be thinking of someone else as I have just started posting again after a very long sabbatical.

Lillith, that is funny, you got married to your partner who you already lived with and already felt was your husband simply so you could join the JWs? How ironic is life sometimes, huh?

I am sorry, I am tired and know I did not respond to everyone yet. But I will come back tomorrow. Good night, yall. (For some reason my apostrophe doesnt work - because Im tired probably - yeesh. I have been taking the contractions out of this whole post and now the tiredness has become too much - my apologies.)

~GoddessRachel