Is pedophilia an unforgivable sin?

In my opinion it should be and a pedophile should never be allowed back into the organization.

The children they abuse suffer for the rest of their lives so why should a pedophile have forgiveness and be reinstated?

Hi Cnn77: I understand your concerns and views. I have lived with this issue all my life from the time when I caught my dad raping my sister ... I was 5 years old at the time. A religious man also molested my wife, when she was very young. As a JW I have seen much of this before, during, and after the time I served as an Elder. Even now there is a family member who is facing trail for molestation.

Soooo ... what about forgiveness? If we place pedophiles in the unholy position of not being able to live anywhere, have any social contact, and no employment ... we may as well execute them.

I believe that pedophiles have a serious mental illness. I can't say for sure if it is strictly some emotional problem or a brain chemistry or biological problem. Medical science needs to study this and find a treatment that will help these people control themselves or cure them.

It is a tough issue. Pedophiles are often victims when they were young, and because of this crime against them, they become like the persons who injured them. This "pattern" making is true in other social ills, be it gangland, drug abusers, thieves and robbers, and murderers. Ending the cycle of abuse is a serious social challenge.

I don't have the answers. As a society, we need to address this issue and cannot allow children to be subjected to the risk, but then do we just throw away the abusers with no hope whatsoever?

In God's eyes, I believe that a molester can be forgiven, and in fact I do not believe that we can commit any unforgivable sin. The issue of forgiveness has two important features: 1. The victim needs to come to terms with the act, and eventually 'let it go' - and such 'letting go' is the root meaning of forgiveness. This is first and foremost for their own mental and emotional health - to stop being a victim. 2. The pedophile needs to get help, seek forgiveness and make it a lifetime commitment to never cause such pain again.

As a society we need to be rational, calm, and seek balance. The danger of vigilante justice, witch-hunt, and the risks of overreacting can cause more harm and achieve little good in return.

Yes, get the bad guys. But, in the process, let's not become guilty of being bad in other ways - but rather rise above it and find a way to deal with this in the most humane and beneficial way for all, especially the victims.

Right now, the real problem is removing the roadblocks to getting the crime reported and dealt with. Groups like the Watch Tower religion are among those that have greatly inhibited this process. So this is where we as a responsible society need to start - get the issue out in the open, keep it in the open, and make sure that safeguards are put into place to protect children as pedophiles are weeded out into the open. Then, maybe we can have a parallel approach of healing for the victim and those related to them to move forward, and find treatment so that pedophiles can not only be helped, but maybe find ways to prevent new young men from becoming pedophiles, and instead live a good and productive life.

These are lofty goals, but I have confidence in the human race and in our free society that we have the goodwill, common sense, maturity, and foresight to tackle this serious issue and make reasonable progress. Let's hope for that, and work toward it. - Amazing

Which is worse, an instance of murder or an instance of pedophilia?

philo

Amazing,

I do not have it in me to be as compassionate as you appear to be.

Amazing - you appear to be "amazing". Is it possible to ever find a way of speaking to you by phone? my email address is mtsmsmq@hotmail.com

Thanks

Well, Manasseh murdered his own children, but sincerely repented, made amends, and was forgiven by Jehovah.

Even if a pedophile is sincerely repentant, makes amends, and is forgiven by Jehovah, he (and a few women) will never be able to control his urges no matter how sincere. The highest rate of recidivism is among pedophiles. Many murderers murder only once, only a few are serial murderers. Even those who are not JWs are finding it hard to answer the question, should pedophiles ever be released back into society? If so, how will the government protect society from their behavior? Name names publicly? Some are doing that. Make pedophiles stay away from places where children are. That's been done but is hard to enforce. Can even disfellowshipped pedophiles be kept out of the KH and assemblies? There is no guarantee. I have been down this road many times in my employment in the court system, as advocates for others, and from my own personal experience as a victim. It is easier to protect children from pedophiles outside their family, because loving parents will educate themselves and their children. The real problem is where the perpetrator is in the family circle. I wish I had the answer; the thing is to be pro-active, be alert to situations, don't sit back and let Jehovah handle it...he may be trying to handle it through YOU.

Whether someone is likely to reoffend is a seperate issue. I think such things should be put before the courts as with other crimes. If pedophiles tend to reoffend, this does not mean all will, or should be tarred with the same brush.

Additionally, it seems to be counter-christian to say that individuals from any group cannot repent and transform themselves. I am open to counter-christian ideas, of course, but for the WTBTS to adopt them seems mistaken.

philo

Hi cnn77;

I understand your concerns however one would need to give credence to the WT as a legitimate authority in order to consider reinstatement. The question I ask is reinstatement to what? They have no authority in any country in the civilized world. Only what blind followers and power hungry leaders who belong to their organization will allow or dish out. When an instance of molestation is reported to elders in a congregation many or most kept it quiet for fear of "reproach on Jehovah's organization" because of WT persuasion.

As far as pedophiles go, they should all be dealt with as severe a penalty as the law allows. In some areas even death is a sentence one can receive. As far as rehabilitation of a sex offender such as a pedophile, from what I've read, it's nearly impossible. The WT will make grandiose claims it can transform people, or the bible can transform over a sinner into a righteous person. All with no formal education or training in any known sanctioned course to do so. The WT is a pitiful organization, in my opinion, it accomplishes little good when compared to the number of Witnesses with the rest of the world population.

HCM

How do you justify that statement in light of subjective morality that is promoted in modern society?

Now, if your question is in reference to Biblical law, a sin is a sin is a sin, there is actually no sin worse than any other. We are forgiven of sin when we accept the sacrifice of God's son as a propitiation for our sins. We ARE NOT given a 'free ride' regarding the cost of that sin, the punishment meted out by society or by the particular church.
Man is not good and would not even do good without having a God-given conscience or without being called by God.

According to literal scripture, the "sin against the Holy Spirit" is the only unforgivable sin. This is when you are so hardened against God, even knowing that He is truly the authority, that you refuse and even promote the sin of yourself and others. See Romans 1-4 for further clarification.
Rex

RexB13:

I don't think that statement is a correct one. If it is then why were different punishments perscribed for different sins. For instance if a man committed fornication with a virgin he had to marry her for life and pay her father a fine. However, if a man committed adultery with a married woman they both were to be put to death. these are not the only examples either of a percieved difference in the gravity of one sin over another.

For instance, intentional murder was distinguished from manslaughter in the Bible. The whole city of refuge arranagement was set up because of this difference. So it would seem that biblically speaking a sin isn't a sin is a sin...... Or something like that

cnn,

At least two questions come to mind and there'd probably be more if I gave it more time:

Is it possible for a pedophile to repent?

How could they put right the wrong? In my view, justice requires that one replace what was lost, to undo the damage that was done. If a cow was stolen, just replace it with another one. But if a child's innocence was abused and psyche irreparably damaged, how do you make it right?

Allowed back into the congregation? Maybe. Before it's even considered, they should be undergoing long-term counseling (not necessarily effective for pedos). If they are allowed to reinter, they should carry a red mark known to all, especially parents of minor children. And they should never be allowed to hold a position of responsibility.

Well Philo, it seems there may be an area where we can agree. You make good points regarding pederasty and your though-provoking question technique hits the nail on the head.

I've spoken with pedophiles and to a man they assured me that if they ever got out and got the chance, they would most certainly re-offend.

There must be a balance between justice and mercy. When pedophiles, who murder many of their victims, offend society and their victims via their behavior, they prey upon the most helpless element of society.

God may forgive our actions while at the same time allowing the consequences of our actions to play out fully. I frankly feel that pederasts should be executed.

Francois

Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

Francoise:

It is interesting that you bring up the matter of executions. It seem that the principle of executing individuals who were deemed incorrigible by their actions also is given support in the Bible.

I'm having trouble locating the actual scripture, but it deals with the incidence of a son who is good-for-nothingand found by his parents t be totally corrupt. The Law stated that such a person should be stoned to death.

ONE....

bigboi

Francoise

You are certainly very Franc, although I'm not yet sure where we have agreed as I don't think it should be a capital offence. Were the pederasts you spoke to also murderers? I hope you didn't have to share a cell with any.

I know a JW woman whose father was very cruel to her when she was a child. The abuse was not sexual, she says, but mental, and it seems to me it has affected her relationships with men profoundly. She also says that 'child abuse' is worse than murder, which is hard for me to understand. My own father was violent and cruel to me at times, but I do not think his behaviour worse than murder, and adding in sexual abuse (which I have not experienced) does not change this. Sexual predators are certainly offending society, as you said, but so are many categories of criminals.

philo

I should have clarified that point. You are speaking of Mosaic Law, which was fullfilled in the messiah. Once we sin even once we have fallen short of the true comparison, between us and Christ. It is a different case comparing humans among each other of course.
Scripture tells us that one sin separates us from God, thus we all stand condemned without salvation from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another case is in the 'White Throne Judgement', where each one is judged according to his earthly actions and the punishment/rewards meted out are done with true justice, holy justice. Now, don't confuse that with the salvation which cannot be changed, only the rewards are changed.
Rex

In the instance of pedophilia

I say the perpetrators can be forgiven and accepted back in as PUBLISHERS ONLY AND FOREVER, IF the victims say so.

After all, a disfellowshipped person can usually only be accepted back into the org if the original disfellowshipping BOE says so.

(So I was told, so it happened to me and so I read in the "Pay Attention and Fleece the Flock" book online and also in the 2 editions of the Org books. What really usually happens is anybody's guess)

I say if the victim(s) can't 'get over it' or if they commit suicide over the assault(s) (that what it is, call a spade a spade)or disappear never to be seen or heard from again then that perpetrator is 's--t out of luck' and hooray for that. Then let the 'reformed' perpetrators WAAAAAAIT ON JEHOOOOVAH...

As for the comment.."we might as well execute them" don't even get me started.

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

I agree pedophiles should not be allowed back into positions where they can reoffend so easily as elders seem to manage. If this is the WTsociety's policy now there would have to be a list of offenders, which is transferrable to new congregations, the offence would be forever on the publisher's record. So that means there is an unforgivable sin in WT world.

philo

May you all have peace! May I respond, as my Lord has granted me leave to? Thank you.

In truth, dear ones, pedophilia is simply an act of weak flesh. While it is indeed more HEINOUS than certain other weaknesses of the flesh, and thus, under the LAW COVENANT, worthy of the offender being stoned to death, being stoned to death is not the 'sentence' of 'unforgiveable' sin. Indeed, disfellowshipping is not either. The 'sentence' for 'unforgiveable' sin... is resurrection to JUDGMENT, which judgment is carried out in everlasting destruction in the Lake of Fire.

Like murder, rape, adultery, and other 'transgression' under the Law Covenant, perpetrators of such were put to death in the physical flesh, but this did not preclude them from possibly being shown mercy in the resurrection. Such mercy will be shown to ALL who 'belong' to Christ (and for such ones, this would require a repentance and abstinence of such acts, if a fleshly Israelite, for transgressing the Law, or, if of the nations an acknowledgment of my Father's 'will' on the matter, thus putting FAITH in Him, and abstaining...). Mercy will also be shown to those who 'do good' to Christ's brothers.

ALL have sinned, dear ones, and 'fallen short of the commandments of God'... and sin... is sin. With the exception of the 'unforgiveable' sin... which is blasphemy against the holy spirit, and there is no forgiveness for such sin, not in this system of things, nor in the one to come.

Why could a pedophile be forgiven, and granted mercy? Because sometimes the flesh is STRONGER than the spirit, or rather, the spirit... is WEAKER than the flesh... and we do things WITH the flesh that we do not wish to do and most probably would NOT do, were it left up to the spirit. Some of us do 'little' things; others, however, do, as I said, HEINOUS things. The ISSUE is, however... intent and motive.

Was/were the act(s) committed because the individual is, in truth, SICK... having been subjected to such treatment him/herself and therefore operating under a weak 'will' (in which most of these cases, the perpetrator has a self-loathing FAR worse than any we could mete out... even wishing to be put to death to end the 'battle')... or was the person DESIROUS of committing the act(s), put up NO fight, asked for NO help... from anyone, including God... and rationalized and justified the act(s) in his/her heart as being without consequence or harm to another?

There are some very 'sick' people out there, dear ones... and then there are some very evil ones. And please, don't kid yourselves... there IS a difference. Some of the battles that we personally have, others would say, "I would NEVER think that way or have that desire... NEVER." And some of the battles others have, WE would say the same. However, we ALL have battles of one sort or another, even something as mundane as a quick temper that gets us into trouble, against our own will.

How do we deal with such individuals, though, whether sick or just plain evil? Thankfully, my Father has put in this place 'superior authorities' to deal with such matters, so that we do not have to. We don't HAVE to judge one another, nor condemn, just as we have been cautioned not to. There are laws and rules which state what could happen to persons who commit various acts that are considered crimes. Pedophilia is, in the USA, a crime. And since we are in 'subjection' to such authorities, and also must show love for our brothers, INCLUDING THE VICTIM, it is our RESPONSIBILITY to go to such one, reveal his/her sin and error and exhort them to do what is 'right', which is report him/herself. If he/she does this, we have gained our brother, for by his/her contriteness and obedience, they have shown that they wish to do the 'right' thing: cease the conduct and get help.

If they don't listen, then you take another with you... and if they listen, again, you have gained your brother. If not, you speak to the 'congregation', which would be all of your mutual associates. Together, you ALL speak to the individual and exhort him/her in the same way. If he/she listens, again, you have gained your brother. If not, however, then he/she becomes to you like 'a man of the world and a tax collector,' which means... you can rightly go to 'Caesar'... for that is what Caesar's law... and LOVE for the victim... should compel you do to. Since such one did not want to have the matter handled by the congregation... and did not listen to the exhortations of the congregation, such one's MOTIVE AND INTENT... is now 'clear'.

Would you... COULD you... still 'associate' with such one? That, then, is for the spirit of my Father, through my Lord... and NO ONE ELSE... to tell YOU. If that spirit says, "Avoid this one, but show him/her love if they become in need," then you would do well to 'hear'... and obey. If it says NOT to avoid such one, you would do well, then, too. If the spirit says to HATE such one, then you should 'test' that 'spirit' and ask that it reveal to you WHY... and just HOW you should 'hate' such one.

For in truth, while the spirit of my Father may tell you, through my Lord, to hate the ACTS of such one and condemn the ACTS, it will not tell you to hate and condemn the individual.

Again, I bid you all peace and hope that if you indeed 'wish' it, you will hear what the SPIRIT says... and not earthling man.

Your servant, and a slave of Christ,

SJ

Amazing:

I've come across on other threads how you've articulated the word 'forgiveness' and it has helped me immensely. I wish I'd saved it. You provided the etiology of the word "forgive" and how it relates to 'letting go of'.

I was still attending meetings last summer, and one fine day a particular event blew my mind. The CO was giving his end-of the week climactic sunday public talk. He started out by describing a sister who had been raped, and who just couldn't "get over it".

The gist of the talk, at least to my ears, was that the sister was letting her response to the trauma interfere with her spirituality, her relationships with others, and life in general. There seemed to be an implication that she was imposing on the elders with her inability to manage her difficulties. He suggested a solution to the problem: forgive the guy. (What I heard: 'Get over it. Get a life. Stop imposing your pathos onto others. If you still have difficulties with what happened after all this time (for the sister used in the example, a year) then you obviously lack character, will, faith, spirituality, etc.etc.etc.')

I felt like I'd been shot. I stood up and somehow got myself out of the kingdom hall. I was never able to attend another meeting without serious anxiety after that, and gradually stopped attending altogether. Kind elders discussed the situation with me and concurred with scripturally-based reasoning that we are not required to "forgive" an unrepentant person who would repeat the offense again without hesitating. That was not the issue for me......... the issue was that this imperious, arrogant TOAD representative whose word was taken as though it was straight from Jehovah's mouth had just fed TOTAL BULLSHIT to about 150 people, giving them tacit approval to disallow victims of crime/abuse of their natural responses and opportunities to heal and recover.

Discussions about how to deal with pedophiles are completely relevant and important. The lack of witnesses, lack of forensic evidence, power-plays, theatrics, etc. that usually fog up any investigation into such matters will probably ensure that these discussions will go on forever.

I'm wishing, so much, as all of this dialogue plays out in all of these posts regarding child abuse, that more emphasis would be placed how to PROVIDING THE SURVIVOR with therapeutic support. The victim of a murder is, well, dead. The victim of a violence has to contend for weeks, months, years, perhaps their entire life with the afteraffects of the abuse. Ask any survivor of abuse, whether it was a single, isolated act, or a nightmarish continuum of on-going anguish if they are generally "allowed" to have their "normal" responses to such hideous experiences. If they are fortunate, there are perhaps one or maybe even two individuals with whom they can safely confide and find support, who listen and accept them, and who do NOT try and tell them how they "should" be feeling.

For the most part, knowledge that evil DOES in fact exist and materializes frequently in our immediate environment is not welcome, and our culture is expertly conditioned to pull out the magic "denial" wand and remain blinded. It is extremely difficult for a survivor of trauma or violence to retain self-respect, credibility, esteem, all of those good things that help us feel like living.

How often have you overheard some random parent tell a child who's just fallen and gotten hurt: "Oh, you're alright. Stand up and stop acting like a......."

So, yes, we can capture all of the abusing pedophiles and twisted parents and all of the other screwed up people who lie about what's true, and send them all off somewhere. But there still remains a vast population of hurting, scared, bewildered individuals who are phenomenally unprepared and completely inequipped to deal with life after their minds have been torn to shreds.

One time after confiding in some gloriously-spiritual wtf-ever wife of some prominent person in the society about my difficulties with depression and PTSD, she told me to basically just stay busy and stop thinking about it so much. I managed to suppress the reflex to burst out laughing... but I did say "WOW!!!!! Thank you!!!!! I'll do that TODAY!!!!!! WOW i'LL DO THAT RIGHT THIS SECOND I'M OVER IT WOWWWWWWW!!!!!! Then I got out of the car and walked away from there.

I can't say that it is an unforgiveable sin. Do we really understand pedophilia? Does anyone truly know what makes an adult desire sexual intimacy with a young child? What makes a man ignore a beautiful woman in favor of say an eight or nine year old girl or boy? Probing deeper, what drives some pedophiles to also kill their victims?
So little is really known about mental illness even in our enlightened age in which we have the "Human
Genome Project" to map our DNA.
None of can accept the fact that a pedophile may be set free in our community, since we really don't know how to stop his or her urges. They truly may be unable to overcome their urges. Some if not many may sincerely wish to never touch a child again. It seems that most simply give in to temptation, but you have to wonder how many pedophiles do manage to keep their urges in check.
Make no mistake, I don't condone pedophilia and don't like the idea of letting them run loose in society unchecked. But we have to get past the emotional response of wanting to "kill the bastards" and treat it like the mental illness that it is. Just like any other disorder, just on a severe magnitude. We need to temper the emotional response and find a way to learn more about how to treat and prevent a mental disorder.
mike.

"Well done, Blind Squirrel! You've found an impressive nut!

Amazing. Your posts were the words in my mind before I read them. Nicely stated about forgiveness.

As a survivor of child sexual abuse (my father was not a JW) I could not forgive him. That does not mean I could not let it go. The two are not inseparable.

He never asked for forgiveness. In fact his exact statement to me was "If you think I'm going to apologize you're crazy". He went on to abuse every person who came into his life

Was he mentally ill? Yes I believe he was. Was he incapable of stopping his behavior. I believe he was. Was he willing to stop? Not if he thought he could get away with it.

Let me explain. He was a victim as a child. He grew up to believe the only way he had any power in life was to take it from others that he believed were less powerful than he was. Although he beat my mother and all of us kids and his second wife and family he never attacked other people he knew. We had friends of the family who were police officers. He never even challenged them. He stayed in control in their presence. From how I understand this he was fully capable of controlling himself when he wanted to or felt the need to. He was also fully capable of abusing those in his home when no one else was looking. This seems like an awful lot of control for someone who is supposed to be menattly ill with a disorder that exhibits with poor impulse control.

Note too that he knew enough about his actions to terrorize his victims into silence. He knew he would be in trouble if he was caught. He used to threaten us with being the one the police would arrest if we talked but he knew he could use that fear to protect himself - not us.

He planned his opportunities to sexually abuse me. He planned on when we could be alone. He would arrange to send my brother out so he could be alone with me. This too does not sound like poor impulse control. He knew enough that he he planned how not to be caught in the act of abusing me. He even would plan on having different items availble for him to perpetuate his abuse on me.

I can accept that the very first time a pedofile abuses his first victim it might be poor impulse control. But after that there is way too much planning that goes on in his head to
1) keep his victim from talking
2) repeat the offence - gain further acces to his victim(s)

From the very moment he is aware of his actions and that it is wrong - and they all know it is wrong - otherwise there would be no need for silencing the victim - he has to start planning on how to protect himself from his action - this is not an impulse control problem. It is a deliberate act of violence on another person - one whom is clearly seen as unable to protect herself (or himself - my father also sexually abused my brother)

OK so here we have a man who abuses children. He knows it is wrong and does it for years. He knows that he will be held responsible if he is caught. He continues and even plans on further abuses. He refuses to accept responsibility and in fact goes on to abuse others.

Where in here is there room for me to forgive this? There isn't. I do not see that I have. He was never ever given access to my children. In fact he never met them. I would never trust him with any child.

I am not angry. I carry no bitterness. The wounds are healed for the most part - it rarely bothers me any more.

When he was dying a couple of years ago I went to the hospital. I did not see the man who terrorized me as a child. I saw a pathetic old man terrified to die. I held his hand as I would have with any stranger in fear. I gave him permission to stop fighting and "Go to meet your mother who is waiting for you." He died less than 24 hours later

I was the only one willing to give the eulogy. My final words about him were.

"John may God have mercy on your soul"

Ultimately it will be up to God to do the judging.