Amish - JWs similiar problems

Something to read,

I just found a site where David Yoder describes the Amish culture in great detail. It is fascinating to get an inside view of their world. However, it is very sad to read about the serious problems they have which are the same as the Witness problems. David's entire book is on the internet. On the front page of his web site is a numeration of all the chapters, so you can stop reading and go back later to where you left off. I spent most of today reading it, and I highly recommend it to you. The site is: amishabuse.com Sorry, I don't know how link things yet, but you can get there, I think, it you type this in. I would be most interested your thoughts on this.

hey larc,

Supposedly the links go like this:

any word: http://www.amishabuse.com

Will go and visit - thanks.

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 12 March 2001 11:13:56

Larc,
Thanks for the info, I just spent the last few hours there, and still have more reading to do. I agree there are some similarties, the shunning, which seems to be much shorter in the amish way, only lasting for a few weeks. Also not allowing outside investigations to occur, so it doesn't shed a bad light on the community. But too often gross neglet is covered up in the name of God and church. The fear of ex members is also seen. Thank you again for drawing our attention to this.
I have lived in areas that were close to the amish communities and was not fully aware of their teachings. One thing is they really take to heart having no part of the world don't they? I was also struck by some of his comments, particularly him trying to return to the amish life because of his family being in. He made a comment about his children not understanding why their families didn't visit or want to be in contact with them. I too can relate to this, since my recent second shunning my mother has not written to my children, they are very concerned about this and and keep asking me to check the mail, because gramma should be sending them a letter soon. How sad for them that they probably won't be recieving a letter, I wish they would. It is hard enough to try to understand as an adult, how much harder as a child.
My heart breaks for what people will do in the name of God, and sometimes I wonder if my own questions will be answered. This life we are given is so short, and to be further burdened with family rejecton is such a waste of time. I live everyday telling my children how much I love them and the door will always be open for my family to do the same.
wendy

larc,

I've spent a few hours pouring over some of the information on the Amish Web site. It's outstanding! I'll post some comments when I finish reading it.

As a side note, I know a crisis worker at one of the area hospitals. She has had some dealing with Amish clients (they seek her services without the Amish community knowing). From what I understand, this Web site is "spot on," to quote Simon.

--JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

JAVA,

I am glad you found this to be a valuable resource. As you find out later in the book, the man spent 30,000 dollars of his own money to save 5 children, his cousins - children of his own sister. He fought the religion and the governmental system and won. He put his book on the internet as a free resource. He is a fine man and has done for the Amish culture what Ray Franz has done for the suffering Witnesses. Anyone fighting abuse and the system should read how he did it.

I think this book is a must read for your counselor friend.

I sent him an e mail and thanked him for his contribution. I also told him a little bit about the Jehovah's Witnesses and told him I would let people know about his work.

Larc,

Thank you for this site. I wish I had this a few weeks ago.

Waiting, Mommy, and JAVA,

I was curious as to whether you had a chance to read more of this outstanding book.

Thank you for posting this link. I'm about half way through and the stuff in this book is interesting. So many similarities and also many things I never realized.

I also want to thank you for this link. I spent my youth in Sinking Spring, Pennsylvania which is on the edge of the Pennsylvania Dutch (Amish) Country. (I became a JW there also.) Innumerable accounts circulated of Amish drinking parties, Amish youths in motorcycle gangs, and Amish drug dealing and addiction. When I related these events to those from outside the area who believed the Amish to be kind, gentle folk who rode in horses & buggies and lived like it was still the 19th century, they were incredulous.
This past September, I flew back to Pennsylvania to attend my grandmother's funeral. One day we decided to take a tour of the heart of the Amish country. On a road just outside Intercourse, Pennsylvania, the image is still indelible in my mind of Amish boys on roller blades racing a horse & buggy while the buggy's lone passenger yacked away on his cell phone. I wish I'd not been behind the wheel so I could have photographed this incredible sight!
The older, traditional Amish who practice such strictness and shunning are not unlike the hard-core JW. Which is probably why it was so easy for Amish folk to be converted into the JW's. I knew several.

The Watchtower of February 1st 1967 contains the life story of an elderly JW sister who was raised as an Amish in Eden, Pennsylvania.

Of interest is her comment about what bothered her about her Amish beliefs, and made her receptive to the message of the Bible Students. She says: "Often I would stroll through the apple orchard, so beautiful in the spring, with the tree trunks whitewashed and the branches just filled with fragrant pink blossoms. “What a wonderful Creator and Provider!” I would say to myself; but in the Amish Church I was taught that someday all these things God created would be burned up. I was also bothered by the teaching that the wicked would suffer forever in torment. This all seemed so unreasonable, and was this really what the Bible taught?"

This seems reminiscent of the feeling that many JWs have that they are made to live in fear of Armageddon.

She also relates what happens when someone leaves the Amish religion. She writes: "The rules of the Amish Church are that if one leaves the church the members must not eat with him. I was shunned by them in many ways, but no intimidation or fear of man could turn me back from offering myself to Jehovah as a willing volunteer for God’s work. Jehovah had now shown me a new way of life. How well I remember the last time I went to church, and Revelation 18:4 (AV) kept going through my mind: “Come out of her, my people,” “Come out of her, my people.” That I did."

We know it can work in reverse too, can't it?

The pressure on her to remain in the Amish faith is similar to the pressure on lapsing JWs. She writes: "The Amish minister called different times to get me to come back to church. When I knew the day of his coming, I would get up at three o’clock in the morning to study my Bible so I could defend the truth, as the apostle Peter said Christians should be always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands a reason for their hope. For me the Bible was now a meaningful book."

Instead of the word Minister above, we could easily substitute the word "elders".

Of course, any religious group that is exclusive in nature is going to have similar methods.

Ozzie

Larc,

Thanks for the Link. I started reading and now I find I can't stop :) . It's a pity Ray Franz couldn't put the full text of is books on the Web. But there again I don't begrudge him of any recompence his books (if any!)have bought him.

qwerty

SFJim,

That is priceless! I was in Homes County, Ohio last summer, which has a large Amish community. I remember seeing a couple of Amish boys hanging around a public phone booth, looking very sheepish because I saw them. I made a comment to my spouse about the paradox they must feel of living in the 19th Century with the 21st Century all around them. It looks like the kids you saw were dealing with that problem very well. That was a great story!

larc,

I'm still reading the on-line book. I can't get over the Amish bed dating practice when kids turn 16. I'm sure it's a system to keep young folks in the community, and insure they didn't date outsiders. Why spend money on a movie and meal when you can slide into bed with someone for the night? It's a setup that encourages sexual freedom, but only in their community. It's also a setup that could encourage sexual abuse.

--JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

Edited by - JAVA on 21 March 2001 19:32:57

Recently, JT posted a cite to read about the Amish. I have responded here to bring this earlier discussion back to the forefront for others to read, so that you will have further detail and then perhaps may want to read this.

Found this artice in today's paper about an Amish group in Pennsylvania:

[From the Dayton Daily News: 04.09.2001]
Religious belief runs up against traffic law

Amish say colorful reflectors on buggies violate their belief

Associated Press

NICKTOWN, Pa. | Roads winding around rolling hills cut picturesque paths through this western Pennsylvania hamlet.

But those curves make it difficult for drivers to spot slow-moving Amish buggies — especially at night, when the all-black, horse-drawn vehicles can fade into the darkness.

‘‘I have had some close calls, and it’s really scary,’’ said resident Bonnie DeFazio. ‘‘At night, you can see something there, but you can’t always tell what it is.’’

There have been no deaths or serious injuries, but the threat has sparked a showdown with the small, conservative Swartzentruber Amish community.

Swartzentrubers came to western Pennsylvania in 1997 from eastern Ohio. There are now about a dozen families in the area some 65 miles east of Pittsburgh.

Its members refuse to use the standard warning symbol of a bright orange triangle that state law requires on slow-moving vehicles, saying the colorful reflectors violate their belief in plain personal belongings. Instead, they outline the back edges of their buggies with gray reflective tape.

Although most other Amish groups in Pennsylvania use the orange reflectors, the Swartzentrubers have received the backing of the American Civil Liberties Union. And state Sen. John D. Wozniak, who represents the area including Nicktown, said last week that he would introduce a bill that would allow the Swartzentrubers to use their reflective tape.

Donna Doblick, a Pittsburgh attorney representing the Swartzentrubers, said four states — including Ohio — permit reflective tape outlining the back of a buggy as a substitute for the orange triangle. Doblick’s firm and the ACLU are working with Wozniak to draw up similar legislation for Pennsylvania.

In December, Jonas Swartzentruber spent three days in jail after being cited for not having a triangle on his buggy. Since then, 10 other members of the sect have been cited, and all say they would rather go to jail than pay the $100 fine or perform community service.

‘‘Doing community service would probably require us to ride in a truck or work with electrical tools,’’ said Levi Zook, one of those who have been cited. ‘‘We don’t want to go to jail, but that is what we will do.’’

Pennsylvania law requires all slow-moving vehicles, including Amish buggies and farm equipment, to display the familiar triangle reflectors as a warning to drivers coming from behind.

‘‘Slow-moving vehicles are at risk when they travel on the roads in Pennsylvania,’’ said Jack Lewis, a State Police spokesman. ‘‘The reflective emblem law is designed to promote safety. We are enforcing that law.’’

Lewis said there have been a few crashes involving Swartzentruber Amish buggies, and State Police began enforcing the reflector law after other residents complained.

The Swartzentrubers are among several conservative Amish orders in Pennsylvania and elsewhere that object to the reflectors — both because of the bright colors and the idea that they should wear a symbol for their protection.

‘‘They’ve cited to me scriptural passages about the perils of putting your faith in a man-made symbol instead of putting your faith in God,’’ Doblick said. ‘‘You have to remember these people read the Bible very literally and find that aspect — the symbol, the triangle — very problematic.’’

One safety researcher argues against an exemption.

‘‘That triangle is there for communicating, ’Hey — I’m moving slowly,’’’ said Tom Schnell, director of the Operator Performance Laboratory at the University of Iowa. ‘‘When you see not just a triangle, but an orange triangle, you know there’s a slow-moving vehicle ahead.’’

But in a similar case in Wisconsin, state Supreme Court justices in 1996 upheld the right of conservative Amish to use white reflective tape instead of the required orange triangle. Courts in Minnesota and Michigan also have sided with the Amish.

‘‘If we can find something that’s equally effective, why not let them use it?’’ Wozniak said.

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

COMF,

Really enjoyed the cartoon--thanks! After reading David Yoder's description of the Amish culture, it's about the only thing I've chuckled about with this sect.

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

This thread reminded me of a book I stumbled upon at Goodwill. It's called Extraordinary Groups: An Examination of Unconventional Lifestyles by William M. Kephart and William W. Zellner. It examines the lifestyles of:

The Old Order Amish
The Oneida Community
The Gypsies
Church of Christ, Scientist
The Hasidim (a convervative Jewish sect)
The Father Divine Movement
The Mormons
The Jehovah's Witnesses.

I found the comparisons and contrasts fascinating. Some of the beliefs of other groups have every bit as much scriptural support as some of the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I was also fascinated by what modern innovations are allowed by the Amish and which are forbidden. BTW, rollerblades and public phone booths are allowed, Java:

The discussion of Jehovah's Witnesses is also an interesting one. William Zellner went undercover to study them for his Ph.D. dissertation in sociology. He started with a Bible study, went to meetings, and eventually went door-to-door as an observer. Here is a sample of what he had to say:

This book is written without rancor and is helpful in understanding these unconventional groups.

Ginny

Hello everybody,

thanks to you all for the posts, and ...not to forget the links to the Amish on-line publication.
By all the comments so far it sounds ...worthy to spend some time
reading it.

Agape to you all J.C.MacHislopp

PS. Ozziepost and GynnyTosken...interesting!

Folks,

I brought this back up for the new people. If you have the time to read this book you will be enriched, I think. What prompted me to resurrect this thread was Teejay's comment that us "pip squeaks" can't do much. I wanted him and others to see what one pip squeak was able to accomplish.

In the final chapters of the book, you will see the strategy and the use of the system that David Yoder made to see justice. This is a heart rending story, and an example of the good that one man can accomplish.

A lady on a bus sees a bearded man dressed in a black suit and hat and goes up to him saying "Jews like you!"
The man says, "I beg your pardon?"
She repeats "Jews like you! You doggedly stick to archaic modes of dress and behaviour and try to force it on more moderate Jews and give a bad reputation in the community to those of us Jews who try to be more liberal!"
The man says,"I'm sorry Madam, but I'm Amish"
The lady smiles and says "How nice to see you're upholding the old traditions!"