Mom calls out Jehovah

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    M steve2 posted Sun, 01 Sep 2013 22:12:52 GMT(9/1/2013)

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    Adam, the question of the Watchtower's significant and negative impact on people is an entirely separate question from the violent actions a few individuals carry out who have suffered that impact. Or are you saying that anyone who has had a strict religious upbringing should be excused for their interpersonal violence and instead blame their upbringing?

    Anyone who blames their upbringing - or any other external factor - for deliberately crossing the line into violence needs to take a good hard look at themselves that they allowed themselves to act in such a dysregulated way towards others.

    You discredit the vast untold numbers of people who have suffered under the Watchtowers unloving policies by and who have not resorted to interpersonal violence often under lots of provocation.

    The world is full of people only too happy to blame external factors for their violence. Thank goodness there are statutory secular laws that seek to hold people accountable for their violent behaviour.

    Finkelstein posted Sun, 01 Sep 2013 22:42:55 GMT(9/1/2013)

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    Maybe she should have called out for real human help instead of an imaginary god (Jehovah).

    Might as well called out for Mickey Mouse.

    Sayswho posted Sun, 01 Sep 2013 22:47:29 GMT(9/1/2013)

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    So let me get this right...when u are in need of help DON'T ASK GOD? He's not the blame for your child's mental issues so why should he stop any violence to you? :(.

    • Thank God for mans laws that don't protect the people from the crime! But punish them after the fact!

    PRAISE GOD!

    SW

    Iamallcool posted Sun, 01 Sep 2013 23:25:37 GMT(9/1/2013)

    Post 3655 of 4002
    Joined 11/24/2010

    I was thinking maybe she got tired of her Mom talking about Jehovah all the time and the mother did say Jehovah during the attack then she got really mad than usual and keep stabbing her to death to shut her up.

    M steve2 posted Sun, 01 Sep 2013 23:57:04 GMT(9/1/2013)

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    Joined 10/31/2004

    The article does notsay that she called out to Jehovah during the attack. The article states that it was after the attack when her ex-husband found her that she said, "Jehovah".

    Finkelstein posted Mon, 02 Sep 2013 00:08:12 GMT(9/2/2013)

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    Jehovah was probably the worst god of the ancient world to model after being a good loving parent.

    He murdered children randomly without cause or even to punish their parents.

    Incidents like this happen when you distance yourself from your children on a social commutative level

    instead move closer to a relationship with a GOD, this instance it was the God of the ancient Hebrews.

    Unfortunately what happens many times the child will psychologically respond by behaving even more ruinousness to themselves.

    M Jeffro posted Mon, 02 Sep 2013 00:52:08 GMT(9/2/2013)

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    Nathan Natas:

    No one should blame the WTB&TS for something that is so obviosly the fault of KNIFEMAKERS!

    There is nothing in the article or related video indicating they were JWs. The girl in the comments who claims to know her could be correct, or could be making it up. And the stabbing could have been motivated by something unrelated to the religion even if they were JWs.

    Poztate:

    An 18 year oul girl stabbed her Mom to death with 79 stab wounds

    The report says she was stabbed in the face and neck. Wouldn't you start running out of bits left to stab before getting to 79? Maybe I'm just a little naive about stabbing people.

    Steve2:

    Well, not necessarily during the attacks . The news report states the ex-husband heard the woman utter the word "Jehovah" when he saw her lying on the bathroom floor.

    Actually, the report says he heard her yell "Jehovah" while the mother and daughter were still in the bathroom. She already appeared to be dead when he saw her laying on the bathroom floor.

    M steve2 posted Mon, 02 Sep 2013 01:51:04 GMT(9/2/2013)

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    Actually, the report says he heard her yell "Jehovah" while the mother and daughter were still in the bathroom. She already appeared to be dead when he saw her laying on the bathroom floor.

    You could be correct Jeffro. However, from the report itself, no mention is made of her "yelling" (your word not the report's) and the timing of hearing her say "Jehovah" appears to have been after the attack. Here's the excerpt from the report:

    The stepfather rushed back to the bathroom with 911 still on the phone and heard his wife say "Jehovah," the affidavit said.

    Sounds a bit ambiguous to say the least, huh?

    Nathan Natas posted Mon, 02 Sep 2013 01:59:02 GMT(9/2/2013)

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    Hold on, Yun-Mi Hoy! Jehovah's on his way! Keep faithfully waiting for him! He's almost here... shit. Nevermind.

    adamah posted Mon, 02 Sep 2013 06:31:12 GMT(9/2/2013)

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    steve2 said-

    Adam, the question of the Watchtower's significant and negative impact on people is an entirely separate question from the violent actions a few individuals carry out who have suffered that impact.

    Yes, that was the original conclusion you stated, which you're now repeating. Beg the question, and lead with your conclusions much?

    Or are you saying that anyone who has had a strict religious upbringing should be excused for their interpersonal violence and instead blame their upbringing?

    "Excused"? 'Straw-man much?

    No, I'm saying that it's only one of many mitigating factors which likely WILL be considered when the case goes to trail (or more likely, at the sentencing phase). Knowing the climate of cover-up of sexual abuse in JWs (eg 2 Witness Rule), and with a JW minority sister with an attractive young daughter, I won't exactly be shocked if an investigation reveals this girl was abused by someone in a position of authority in the KH, but the abuser was able to suppress the charges made by the victim and the daughter blamed the mother for not standing up for her. No evidence of that, AFAIK (and you can just imagine the paper shredder's in the KH getting pretty hot the day after she committed the murder, to avoid bringing "dishonor to Jehovah's organization"). Just saying, such a scenario wouldn't be that far out of the realm of possibilities to explain her behavior (I saw some comments elsewhere about this being somewhat a recent development in her personality, but who knows).

    Anyone who blames their upbringing - or any other external factor - for deliberately crossing the line into violence needs to take a good hard look at themselves that they allowed themselves to act in such a dysregulated way towards others.

    Straw-manning again? I didn't say that such environmental factors justify a "oh, the poor baby; let her go FREE!" approach, just that her environment IS a factor: you push someone enough, and sometimes they snap. You and I don't know what the reality of her environment and her state of mind was at the time, so it's pointless to quibble over it now, but better to wait on the investiagtion and trial when all the facts are heard.

    Oh, and you might take a good hard look in the mirror to ask why you're so strongly biased, feeling the compulsion to protect existing power structures in such a knee-jerk manner, even before knowing all the facts of the case. Why are you so threatened by the suggestion of children who might snap after being sexually-abused?

    You discredit the vast untold numbers of people who have suffered under the Watchtowers unloving policies by and who have not resorted to interpersonal violence often under lots of provocation.

    "Discredit them", LOL?

    The greater insult to young victims of a high-control group like the JWs is to tolerate a status-quo mind-set, where they're allowed to perpetrate their actions for a few more decades, and continue playing the "blame the victims" games what JWs do so well; worse to not investigate the factors where the adults MAY have contributed to raising psychologically-damaged and scarred humans in toxic environments, where surprise! Some of them DO snap.

    The world is full of people only too happy to blame external factors for their violence. Thank goodness there are statutory secular laws that seek to hold people accountable for their violent behaviour.

    True, they're called sociopaths.

    And what a shame that high-control groups like the JWs are able to operate with little governmental restraint, due to powerful religious special-interest lobbying groups and the widespread support of theistic fantasies amongst the general population. Freedom of worship seems to be the freedom to raise brainwashed minds by feeding them 2,500 yr old paternalistic and misogynistic rules of the Ancient Hebrews, and then acting surprised when you discover that ancient legal codes aren't such a GOOD idea after all (eg 2 Witness rule).

    Adam

    M Jeffro posted Mon, 02 Sep 2013 06:39:23 GMT(9/2/2013)

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    steve2:

    Sounds a bit ambiguous to say the least, huh?

    Sigh. The report says:

    The stepfather rushed back to the bathroom with 911 still on the phone and heard his wife say "Jehovah," the affidavit said.
    Then the bathroom door opened and Isabella walked out, holding a knife downward in her right hand, the stepfather said.
    M steve2 posted Tue, 03 Sep 2013 19:21:09 GMT(9/3/2013)

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    Joined 10/31/2004

    Adam, I hold firmly to the view that, whilst courts do take into consideration "mitigating" circumstances, each individual is responsible for purposeful and threatened acts of interpersonal violence. The daughter had stated in an earlier communication that her mother would "pay"; no doubt the prosecution will adduce this to argue it was not a crime of loss of impulse control but a premeditated act. Courts view premeditated acts of violence more severely than evident in-the-moment losses of control.

    And, of course, it will be over to her defense team to articulate the likely mitigating factors to which you refer. In cases such as this, the "other" side (the mother's account) will not be heard because she is dead and cannot answer to the way defense teams often question the victim's own behaviour. BTW, I view the victim as being the mother, not the daughter - on that basis alone, I acknowledge that I may part company with other's views on this.

    The fact is, acts of violence by those who have suffered at the hands of the Watchtower are extremely rare - which means that, by far, most people who have suffered at the hands of the Watchtower do not resort to violence, but do manage to regulate their emotions often under very trying conditions. I also acknowledge that, as yet, there is no further information on the JW connection - the sole tidbit is the mother reported as saying "Jehovah".

    Jeffro I take on board the quote from the report. An earlier poster said the victim had "yelled" out "Jehovah"; the report said the ex-husband heard her "say" "Jehovah". You could reason that she must have yelled or called out or you could just stick to what the ex-husband said. I guess a fuller account of the matter will subsequently emerge. It illustrates how easily we readers can go beyond what is written. I myself also need to read reports more carefully and acknowledge I got it wrong.

    RayPublisher posted Wed, 04 Sep 2013 20:39:47 GMT(9/4/2013)

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    Joined 3/1/2011

    Making jokes about a child that just murdered their mother is not funny or cool- it shows you have a serious problem yourself. That in my mind is a reason to lock a thread or ban a person from commenting here.

    Thanks to the OP for drawing attention to this tragedy and how it may have been WT related.

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