The 144,000 chosen ones...I'm so confused

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    SoManyQuestions posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:00:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    My biggest question about JW is regarding the 144,000 from Revelations. How could John know exactly how many people were there? How did he know that they were representing the 12 tribes of Israel? How do you know if you are in the 144,000? What happens when all the spaces fill up, like people who are born 1,000 years from now...will they never have a chance? And what about the people that were born before JW was invented? Were any of them chosen? What happens to the JWs that aren't chosen? And the non-JWs? And what about this?

    (KJV) Rev 14:3-4 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thosand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb."

    Does this mean that all of the 144,000 chosen ones must be virgin males? That's the way it sounds to me. I'm sure I'm not the first person to site this, but I would just like to hear your thoughts on the matter. As I've said before, I'm not a JW, but I know a few and the religion piques my interest. Thanks again.

    Double Edge posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:13:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    I'm not a JW, but DUNGBEETLE answered one of my questions about half an hour ago...listed under the subject "Memorial Service...Why So Special?" His comments regard the 144,000 were interesting...they were:

    "As far as Revelation goes, you gotta love this: the 'bride' of christ is symbolic; the woman of christ is symbolic; the lamb and the blood are symbolic, as are the palm fronds they wave; BUT THE 144,000 NUMBER ARE LITERAL. Just that one thing is LITERAL.

    In the early 1900's, there were like 400 Bible Students (as JW's were then called). The 144,000 being a literal number was easy then. Once therir numbers passed 150,000, they was in deep do-do. You will find that the 'new light' of an earthly class was 'shed' upon the Bible Students right around that time. WHAT A COOINCIDENCE...BWAHAHAHAH"

    F butalbee posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 02:02:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Joined 8/29/2001

    Virgin men!!!!In Heaven???? I could have a heavenly good time there.

    larc posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 02:09:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

    Post 4361 of 6533
    Joined 12/2/2000

    Ask your girl friend. I am sure she can answer your questions.

    M heathen posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 02:39:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Joined 4/13/2001

    If you have to ask you are not one.but seriously I have heard them explain that the virginity issue has nothing to do with sexual intercourse but has to do with spiritual purity in worship .much like the apostle paul talked about in 2corinthians :11-2.

    M Justin posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 02:53:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Joined 2/10/2002

    You're asking too many questions to be answered here (though perhaps someone might attempt to answer them).

    Just remember that the 144,000 are a Biblical subject. They appear in the book of Revelation - in Greek, the Apocalypse. This book has leant its name to a whole literary genre of ancient writings known as "apocalyptic." So do some research regarding what this type of literature conveyed and find out what scholars think the 144,000 originally meant.

    Then there is a whole history of interpretation - what theologians thought about this number throughout the ages.

    And finally, there is the JW view. For this, it is best to read articles about JWs written by others.

    If you become too fascinated by these things, you're setting yourself up to becoming indoctrinated by the JWs themselves. You don't want to end up getting burned like we did, do you? If all this research is being done to enter a close relationship with a JW, as others have told you, it's not worth it.

    Justin

    SoManyQuestions posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 05:56:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    I'm just curious about the religion. Being agnostic, it is difficult for me to see how JWs can believe what they do, so I'm just trying to get some perspective by asking questions, because religion *any religion) is fascinating for me. As for the whole "dating a JW" issue, I know it would be a horrible idea, I just wanted an explanation of why the JW believe what they belive about dating...which I recieved. So thanks for the input and I'll be sure to keep the questions coming.

    M LittleToe posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 09:56:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

    Post 337 of 14978
    Joined 9/12/2001

    The bottom line is that the number is symbolic.
    More than 144,000 are involved.

    It has been retained as a way for the Governing Body of JW's to keep a monopoly on the control of many lives.

    F Celia posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:20:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Joined 3/18/2001
    I have heard them explain that the virginity issue has nothing to do with sexual intercourse but has to do with spiritual purity in worship .much like the apostle paul talked about in 2corinthians :11-2.

    How can they give this explanation if it says.... "Tese that were not defiled with women"...How should we understand "defiled with women" then ?

    You Know posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:02:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

    Post 1160 of 1998
    Joined 4/13/2001
    My biggest question about JW is regarding the 144,000 from Revelations. How could John know exactly how many people were there?

    Because God revealed it to him. That's what the word "revelation" means. God unveils sacred secrets that are otherwise unknowable. However, before Revelation was written both Jesus and Paul indicated that there was a set number who were to be chosen by God. At John 17:2 Jesus, in prayer to God, referred to "the whole number whom you have given him." That has reference to those whom Jesus shares his kingdom with. Furthermore, at Romans 11:25 Paul referred to a sacred secret, which had to do with God's creation of a kingdom made up of numerous kings and priests who would serve with Christ in heaven, and he used the expression in connection with spiritual Israle: "Until the full number of the people of the nations has come in." That indicates, again, that the "Israel" mentioned in Revelation is a spiritual nation with a finite, pre-determined, number of chosen ones. 144,000 is the full number.

    How did he know that they were representing the 12 tribes of Israel?
    Because it says so in the 7th chapter of Revelation. However, It is not talking about the literal nation of Israel. Jesus started a new nation that is referred to in many places in scritpure as "Israel."

    How do you know if you are in the 144,000?
    God let's you know. Jehovah is the Great Communicator. He has demonstrated numerous ways of communication; using dreams and visions and angels, and even speaking directly on a few occasions. In the case of those whom he choses to adopt as sons he speaks to them on a spiritual level primarily through his word.

    What happens when all the spaces fill up, like people who are born 1,000 years from now...will they never have a chance?
    When all the spaces are filled up and those who are called and chosen are also finally sealed with God's irreversible approval, then, Jehovah's angels let go of the symbolic 4 winds of destruction that they are holding in restraint, thereby effectively bringing an end to this world. Then, the new world begins whereby the 144,000 become the rulers of the new world.

    And what about the people that were born before JW was invented? Were any of them chosen?
    The apostles of Jesus were the first ones to become sons of God. The opportunity wasn't open to anyone who lived before the time of Christ. After the apostles died off corruption set in to the congregation and the calling apparently dwindled down to a trickle. However, during the last days Jehovah once again issues a call and selects some to fill out the number.

    What happens to the JWs that aren't chosen? And the non-JWs? And what about this?
    Jehovah's purpose has always been to restore the earth to a paradise. God's will and stated purpose is to bring the dead back to life on earth in paradise. The 144,000 will simply serve as a government, a kingdom, that will rule over mankind and assit in restoring human perfection in paradise.

    Does this mean that all of the 144,000 chosen ones must be virgin males? That's the way it sounds to me. I'm sure I'm not the first person to site this, but I would just like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
    The 144,000, as a group, are symbolized as a virgin bride of Christ. It simply means that they are not corrupted spiritually.

    / You Know

    Kenneson posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:31:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Let's look at Rev. 14. Oh, yes, "Mount Zion," that's symbolic.
    "A Lamb," that's symbolic. 144,000--now that's literal according to JW's. "Name written on foreheads," that's symbolic. "Four animals," that's symbolic. "The elders," that's symbolic. "Not been defiled with women," that's symbolic.
    If all else is symbolic, why not the number 144,000?

    Will Power posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:38:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Joined 11/14/2001

    Jehovah's purpose has always been to restore the earth to a paradise. God's will and stated purpose is to bring the dead back to life on earth in paradise.

    Could you please humor me and give the bible passage - with context please where this is stated? Thanks

    M kes152 posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 17:52:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Dearest SoMany..

    Regarding the 'truth' of the matter:

    How could John know exactly how many people were there?

    When John was there, he heard a number of those to be sealed, one hundred forty four thousand, sealed out of EVERY tribe of the sons of Israel. Contrary to the JWs, the truth is this is LITERAL "Israel." there is a great multitude that no man could number seen standing in sight of the throne in HEAVEN, worshipping God IN HIS TEMPLE in HEAVEN with the 144,000 firstfruits.

    Revelation 7:4
    Revelation 7:9, 15
    Revelation 5:9, 10

    How did he know that they were representing the 12 tribes of Israel?

    John was not told they 'represented' the 12 tribes, he was told they ARE the 12 tribes.

    How do you know if you are in the 144,000?

    The same way he calls the great multitude to go to heaven. It is found in Romans 8:14-17. Notice.. ALL who are led by God's spirit go to heaven. The great multitude are 'led by God's spirit' therefore they go to heaven.

    What happens when all the spaces fill up, like people who are born 1,000 years from now...will they never have a chance?

    When the 144,000 and the great multitude have all been gathered in, then God will turn his attention back to Israel who remained in their lack of faith. Those who then put faith in God's Son will be grafted back to the vine, they will be shown mercy. And in this way, ALL of Israel will be saved.

    Romans 11:25-27
    Romans 11:30-32

    And what about the people that were born before JW was invented?

    If they are in union with Christ, they will become apart of the vine in union with Him.

    John 15:1-8

    What happens to the JWs that aren't chosen? And the non-JWs?

    Actually, the JWs are the ones who persecute the great multitude and the 144,000. they have "thier group" of imposters who hate and kill anyone who is a TRUE member of God's household. They know it, but they do not let their 'flock of organized people' know it.

    John 10:12, 13

    Peace to you,
    Aaron

    M Sargon posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 22:28:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    Joined 2/5/2002

    I was wondering if homosexual pedophiles could be included in the 144.000, since they haven't been defiled by women?


    They faught like warrior poets...and gained their freedom.

    hooberus posted Wed, 06 Mar 2002 22:50:00 GMT(3/6/2002)

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    "You Know" says that the 144,000 being spiritual virgins means that they are not corrupter spiritually. This would seem to disqualify JW's who died before 1928 as they:

    1. followed the satanic pyramid until they died.

    2. creature worshipped Charles Russell

    3. creature worshipped their Jesus

    4. saluted the idolatrous flag.

    Just one of these would have caused them to lose their spiritual virginity, let alone all of them being practiced at the same time. Also the light can't get brighter for the ones who died in this false worship!

    I am new here can someone please tell me how to "quote" others?

    Yadirf posted Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:13:00 GMT(3/7/2002)

    Post 917 of 1352
    Joined 3/17/2001

    Kenneson

    Let's look at Rev. 14. Oh, yes, "Mount Zion," that's symbolic.
    "A Lamb," that's symbolic. 144,000--now that's literal according to JW's. "Name written on foreheads," that's symbolic. "Four animals," that's symbolic. "The elders," that's symbolic. "Not been defiled with women," that's symbolic.
    If all else is symbolic, why not the number 144,000?

    Two questions to consider:
    1) Even "if all else is symbolic," what prevents the "144,000" from being a literal number? Is that possibility ruled out for some reason?

    Although most of what is said in this chapter is figurative language, it certainly isn't ALL figurative. For example verse 13 speaks of, not a figurative, but a definite point in time. That verse reads: "Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them." So we see that there are no less than three things in this verse that are, not symbolic, but literal.

    2)If in fact the number was intended to be symbolic, what number THEN would the "144,000" represent?

    Certainly there's no doubt WHAT the number represents, and so what problem could there possibly be with the understanding that it be a literal number? None whatsoever that I can see. Because these ones are to assist Christ in ruling over a world full of people, is there really anything so unreasonable about such an exact number as this being selected to do the job? Should the reasoning be that it is too many? Or, maybe not enough? It seems only natural that it be taken literally, it appears to me.

    Yadirf

    Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.

    M LittleToe posted Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:35:00 GMT(3/7/2002)

    Post 344 of 14978
    Joined 9/12/2001

    It's not really been thought through that well, has it.

    144,000 rule over the earth.
    So what about after the millenium? (Rev.20:5,6)
    What do they do when all things are handed back to the Father? (1 Cor.15:28)
    Do perfected humans still need judges?
    So, was this alll part of God's original purpose?

    Ah, yes, the new scrolls! The answer to everything.

    Do you sometimes think that the scale and scope of this is a little beyond the imagination of those proposing it?

    Will Power posted Thu, 07 Mar 2002 10:59:00 GMT(3/7/2002)

    Post 283 of 2272
    Joined 11/14/2001

    Excellent observation hooberus.

    The door will open every 5 or 10 years as the tacking gets tackier. For sure the "elite" who became part of the beast must not pass go. They were the ones dispensing this spiritual food during that time. Was that proper, pure, true worship? Looks like approx 8,000 new seats have come up for bidding.

    Yes little toe, its not really been thought through that well.

    Still no answers to any of these questions.
    State something as a fact, or truth - expect examination and questions.

    You Know posted Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:23:00 GMT(3/7/2002)

    Post 1161 of 1998
    Joined 4/13/2001
    "You Know" says that the 144,000 being spiritual virgins means that they are not corrupter spiritually. This would seem to disqualify JW's who died before 1928 as they:

    For the most part your observation is born out of biblical illiteracy. For example: When Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation, saying that he had personally been involved in promising them to Christ in marriage, he was also at the same time aware of numerous problems within that congregation. Some of the Corinthians claimed to belong to Paul, others to Appolos, etc. There were numerous other problems that Paul tried to correct, none of which were too dissimilar from the problems that modern day congregations suffer. The vision of Revelation, however, concerning the 144,000, is dealing with the end result and not the ongoing process of calling, choosing, and sealing of the individual 144,000. But, Christ is yet to sit as a Refiner of Jehovah's priests. So it is the purified end result that Revelation depicts and not the past, or even current, state of affairs. / You Know

    You Know posted Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:32:00 GMT(3/7/2002)

    Post 1162 of 1998
    Joined 4/13/2001

    Little toe

    Ah, yes, the new scrolls! The answer to everything.

    Not necessarily. The little scrolls have to do with reforming mankind during the 1,000 years. Jehovah hasn't revealed anything beyond the end of that period so it is impossible to know exactly what he has in mind for Christ and his 144,000 associate kings beyond that point. However, since Christ and the 144,000 will have life in themselves and will no longer be dependent upon Jehovah to support them in any way, they will be able to do whatever they want to do. Having life in themselves means that they could impart life to other creatures like the Creator himself. So, really, human imagination is the only limiting factor to the endless possibilities that will open up for the sons of God after their kingdom business is finished. / You Know

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