People leave the Org but don't drop the doctrine?

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    M Momma-Tossed-Me posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:35:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 382 of 550
    Joined 7/11/2008

    This deserved its own thread. One thing I have observed being able to speak freely to individuals now about the WTBTS is that even though they fade, they hold one to all or a portion of the doctrine.

    If you examine the doctrine openly and fully you will see it has as many holes in it as the Org does. Although it may appeal to you it doesn't make it sound scripturally.

    If you are on this board, free yourself fully from the influence of this organization. They have given you nothing that will either influence or strengthen your relationship with God, if you believe in him.

    Find the true understanding of what salvation is so you can be happy.

    MTM

    M Black Sheep posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:07:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 8841 of 10007
    Joined 8/8/2003

    As long as someone who has had some associatian with this cult still has delusions of killer gods destroying them, they are damaged goods.

    I know several people who are Neverbinadubs who are so damaged that I doubt they will ever fit into 21st century society.

    Iamallcool posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:09:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 2174 of 4006
    Joined 11/24/2010

    I did not leave due to doctrinal reasons.

    Fernando posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:13:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 509 of 3319
    Joined 9/21/2009

    It is hard to realise that more than the picture was in error - the frame too!

    Not just the doctrines, but also the ethnocentric idea that one should pursue and find the "correct" understanding of peripheral doctrines such as the trinity, hell fire and immortality of the soul instead of the full, unabridged gospel message, or "good news".

    Precisely what Paul warned against.

    sspo posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:16:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 2111 of 2357
    Joined 6/25/2006

    Those that drop out and hold on to doctrines have not done any research on the watchtower and its doctrines.

    I believe the vast majority of us left due to the lies of the watchtower in twisting the scriptures.

    In the defense of the watchtower every other religion does the same.

    Nothing but interpretation of the bible and that's why the 1000's of denominations.

    M Momma-Tossed-Me posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:22:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 385 of 550
    Joined 7/11/2008

    Iamallcool - so you still believe the doctrine? If so you are not alone.

    Amelia Ashton posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:33:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 736 of 1921
    Joined 11/2/2010

    I have spoken 2 d'fd and 1 inactive dub since leaving and all 3 definitely 100% still believe it all.

    I would say they are too scared to look at anything not approved by the society. Any doubts they do have are still being pushed to the back of the mind and are not being researched. So sad.

    truth_b_known posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:38:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 274 of 365
    Joined 11/2/2011

    I fit into this category at first. I was totally inactive and believed the doctrine, but not the organization. However, after coming to this website and studying on my own I became completely free from the Watch Tower after 30+ years of slavery.

    Iamallcool posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:42:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 2175 of 4006
    Joined 11/24/2010

    I really do not care about doctrines. The one that really pissed me off is that the Watchtower strongly discourage youths to play high school sports as I did not play high school sports like I should have! I was a very talented basketball player when I was in high school, alot of people were puzzled why I was not playing for their high school. I was under alot of pressure to join. I begged My Elder Dad very hard, I even cried and My Dad still say NO!

    SeekingTheRealTruth posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:45:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 8 of 39
    Joined 3/13/2012

    For me it was initially the inconsistency in how disfellowshipping is done that made me angry enough to start questioning everything else cuz that policy never felt right to me. Then I read the entire new testament from matthew to revelation without the interpretation of the watchtower and found so many contradictions to JW doctrine. That is what really made me leave. For example, 1 Tim 2:5 says there is "one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ". How do they explain this scripture when they really teach that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000??? It's in a 1976 questions from readers (can't remember exact month right now) The "other sheep" get salvation through the anointed class, a completely unbiblical teaching.

    Phizzy posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:50:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 1009 of 7419
    Joined 12/17/2011

    I have found, speaking to a number who are as you describe, still hanging on to the doctrine, that they are ones who did not "study" well when they were in, they are the kind of person who likes to be told facts etc, not find out for themselves, hence ideal fodder for the WT monster.

    Many of them only have a hazy idea of waht the WT teaching is, they are often out of date, and could not make a defense of the doctrines from scripture without referring to a WT publication.

    They have acquired the doctrines by a kind of osmosis, and therefore nothing they now come in contact with works to erode the grip such false teaching has.

    Such ones are in the saddest of places, outside the Borg, suffering its disapproval, and yet still held prisoner by its lies.

    It is difficult to help such ones, Gawd bless 'em !

    garyneal posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:08:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 3177 of 3511
    Joined 9/5/2009

    I notice a lot of people who post here would often remark about some of the things that the Watchtower has right. Their favorite targets tend to be the Trinity, hell-fire, and the immortal soul. I cannot hold that against them, though. Upon leaving the IFB's, I too held on to a lot of their teachings and believed them to be correct. That is just the nature of how cultists think upon exiting their cults I guess.

    M leavingwt posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:08:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 14123 of 14213
    Joined 6/16/2008

    Some people have left their cage, but not the zoo.

    clearpoison posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:17:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 277 of 396
    Joined 11/2/2010

    I'm more than happy to be killed by any killer god, because I certainly do deserve it. Just please do not drag me to the paradise. Because of this, how many percent of doctrine is right or wrong really do not matter to me.

    CP

    diamondiiz posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:35:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 1309 of 1522
    Joined 3/15/2009

    Those who are df or faders for their own reasons most likely still believe in wts doctrine to large degree and feel that they are either not worthy of God's salvation or that they want to do their own thing for the time being and will run back to mother once the Armageddon clouds are on horizon. There must be a large number of them out there.

    I would speculate that a small number of those will examine wts and finally break the wts yoke and many will end up on sites like this one at one point in their lives. There isn't many faders here who believe in wts lie, actually the only ones that might still believe a lie are newer members who just woke up to the reality and are going through stages of putting pieces together as they realize how deep the wts lie runs.

    And then there are those who still believe in the bible god which in itself probably is not much better than believing in what wts says. So which is a greater delusion?

    Phizzy posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:59:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 1014 of 7419
    Joined 12/17/2011

    One definition of "Delusion" is :

    "a mental state characterised by false beliefs, that persists, despite the contrary evidence of fact "

    Both conditions, still hanging on to WT trash, or believing in "Bible God", fit that definition to my mind.

    blond-moment posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:35:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 291 of 506
    Joined 7/20/2011

    Even tho I no longer believe anything the WT has to say about anything, but my issue isn't about most of the doctrine.

    The more I learned about mind control, the less I could believe anything they said, and eventually broke free of all that WT induced fear guilt shame etc.

    It is the MIND CONTROL I have issue with. They are a descrutive mind control cult, that's the issue.

    F blondie posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:47:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 33618 of 37788
    Joined 5/28/2001

    The ones that leave, perhaps for "immoral" activities in regard to sex, smoking, illegal drugs, unscriptural re-marriage, and similar, tend to still think that the WTS is the best of a bad lot. Some see themselves as physically weak, unable perhaps to meet the high standards. Others find a way to separate God from the organization, that the organization is bad and soon God will correct it, like he did with the Israelites. I tell people like that, was that when Jesus appeared, God's patience with the Jews as a group ended.

    Blondie (inactive 3 times, 3rd time was a charm)

    M Dogpatch posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:54:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 3638 of 3989
    Joined 12/26/2000

    Blond-moment says,

    Even tho I no longer believe anything the WT has to say about anything, but my issue isn't about most of the doctrine.

    The more I learned about mind control, the less I could believe anything they said, and eventually broke free of all that WT induced fear guilt shame etc.

    It is the MIND CONTROL I have issue with. They are a descrutive mind control cult, that's the issue.

    Exactly. Very few Witnesses join for doctrtoonal reasons, as they wouldn't need to. Just believe the 5th grade theological arguments and stay at home. People join, and people leave, because they want a family and hope and assurance of future security. They join and leave for primal reasons. What I need, and what can they do for me? No different than many churches. I know from 30 years of experience and speaking in hundreds of churches and kingdom halls.

    We want to believe that God is speaking to us personally. Not allowable with the "great crowd" pernicious invention which started with Russell. (Two classes, righteous and not so righteous). According to the WT, the Bible was only written to the "anointed," which is a direct slam on the Holy Spirit according to Paul in Romans and Galatians.

    Sick demented and isolated men in Brooklyn invented all this crap to keep the organization alive. Here's one of many shockers:

    By the way, be sure and read the article in my Armageddon Okie e-letter just sent out, regarding Fred Franz as the originator of the blood policy, and his REAL motives behind it. Here is the sample quote:

    After the Judge's death, as World War II was ending, and persecution against the Witnesses began declining, along with the attendant drop in news-media publicity, Hayden C. Covington told the author that Fred Franz saw the prohibition against blood transfusions as a way to accomplish two things: to continue to publicize the religion, and to create an uproar in the community. This reaction would convince the membership they were being "persecuted" and "suffering for righteousness sake," a sure sign they were "in the truth."

    Before the hysteria began over adapting Scriptures pertaining to animal blood and applying them to human blood, the Watch Tower Society had acknowledged these Scriptures pertained to animal blood only: "The law of Jehovah God is against the intermingling of animal matter with any human blood, as it is stated in Leviticus (chapter 17)." This is proof, using their own literature, that the Scriptures in both the Old and the New Testaments, used by the Watch Tower Society in the blood issue, were formerly understood to be references to the improper use of animal blood.

    But Woodworth, joined by the unpredictable Fred Franz, thought nothing of applying all animal blood verses to human blood, and especially in the modern life-saving technique of blood transfusions for humans.

    The first statement in which the new blood position was implied (that position originated by Woodworth, supported by Fred Franz, joined still later by President Knorr, and still perpetuated today by the Watch Tower leadership) was prepared by Fred Franz and published In the Watchtower of July 1, 1945.

    "Seeing, then, that the Most High and Holy God gave plain instructions as to the disposition of blood, in harmony with his everlasting covenant made with Noah and all his descendants; ... therefore it behooves all worshipers of Jehovah who seek eternal life in this new world of righteousness to respect the sanctity of blood and to conform themselves to God's righteous rulings concerning this vital matter." - The Four Presidents of the Watch Tower Society, p. 75

    Author Edmond Gruss interviewed Knorr's right-hand man who was beside him for years, and he knew all the hidden policy stories during Knorr’s reign. None of them contradict what some old-timers at Bethel already knew. I could see all the sick politics firt-hand with Fred and Knorr. ANY Bethelite with half a brain and who knew the inner circle could. Not so those outside of Bethel, who didn't live and work with the codgers. The Witness that Mr. Gruss interviewed formally posted often on the JWD discussion board before he got too ill... Gruss interviewed him just in time. I proofread the book "The Four Presidents" for Gruss right before it was released, and was amazed to find Fred Franz’ motives in developing the blood transfusion doctrine – what a story that is!

    If any Witness actually got the point, it would shake them up pretty bad. But it is only one of many similar stories from Rutherford and Knorr’s reign over the Watch Tower organization contained in the book. One would have guessed it was Knorr or Rutherford who were really the worst leaders of all. Evidence now reveals it was Fred Franz, and for all the wrong motives, none of which had anything to do with the Bible! It was about manipulation to bolster the mighty ORGANIZATION.
    My advice: why argue blood from a doctrinal perspective? Would you argue with Charles Manson over his philosophical ravings? It is only an attempt to hide the origin of the policy, like most fundys do, through their clever yet erroneous interpretation of the 66 books we call the Bible.

    Fred Franz was responsible for the death of perhaps tens of thousands of JWs, all a sacrifice to increase persecution on the poor Witnesses and keep them reactive in their opposition to the churches and the Red Cross. Collateral damage control!

    Where would he rate on a scale of one to ten in the most evil of cult leaders to you?

    I thoguht Knorr was the most evil in my six years at Bethel... yet like most Bethelites I was entertained by the old preacher style antics of Fred Franz. Most of the young Bethel boys liked him, because he was kind of anti-Governing Body. But he was a little too friendly with the Bethel boys, whereas Knorr had nothing but contempt for the young men who volunteered to serve at Bethel for $14 a month.

    As investigation continues, Franz may have been far worse. I think I will do a series on this.

    From the "Four Presidents of the Watchtower" by Edmond Gruss, page 75:

    I quote below from page 75 of this book you have to read. The blood doctrine had no originality in scripture - so don't argue it from scripture. Argue it from the history of the Watch Tower and F.W. Franz.

    After the Judge's death, as World War II was ending, and persecution against the Witnesses began declining, along with the attendant drop in news-media publicity, Hayden C. Covington told the author that Fred Franz saw the prohibition against blood transfusions as a way to accomplish two things: to continue to publicize the religion, and to create an uproar in the community. This reaction would convince the membership they were being "persecuted" and "suffering for righteousness sake," a sure sign they were "in the truth."

    Before the hysteria began over adapting Scriptures pertaining to animal blood and applying them to human blood, the Watch Tower Society had acknowledged these Scriptures pertained to animal blood only: "The law of Jehovah God is against the intermingling of animal matter with any human blood, as it is stated in Leviticus (chapter 17)." This is proof, using their own literature, that the Scriptures in both the Old and the New Testaments, used by the Watch Tower Society in the blood issue, were formerly understood to be references to the improper use of animal blood.

    But Woodworth, joined by the unpredictable Fred Franz, thought nothing of applying all animal blood verses to human blood, and especially in the modern life-saving technique of blood transfusions for humans.

    The first statement in which the new blood position was implied (that position originated by Woodworth, supported by Fred Franz, joined still later by President Knorr, and still perpetuated today by the Watch Tower leadership) was prepared by Fred Franz and published In the Watchtower of July 1, 1945.

    "Seeing, then, that the Most High and Holy God gave plain instructions as to the disposition of blood, in harmony with his everlasting covenant made with Noah and all his descendants; ... therefore it behooves all worshipers of Jehovah who seek eternal life in this new world of righteousness to respect the sanctity of blood and to conform themselves to God's righteous rulings concerning this vital matter."

    This organization is doomed.

    Randy

    M leavingwt posted Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:55:00 GMT(4/18/2012)

    Post 14126 of 14213
    Joined 6/16/2008

    In the year 1850, the Watchtower organization and its unique interpretations did not exist.

    Why would they be special, today, unless Jesus did pick them in 1919?

    If you cannot provide evidence to suppor this 1919 picking, why bother with them?

    Throw a dart at an organization chart of religions and pick any of them. Chances are, the food and music will be much better.

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