Since the numbers of those partaking are increasing......

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    justmom posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:31:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 35 of 202
    Joined 2/12/2010

    ........and NOT decreasing, and 1935 hasn't shut up the heavenly hope....

    then maybe folks are hearing the invitation at John 6:35-59......

    "I am the bread of life! He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood (communion) has EVERLASTING life, and a RESURRECTION. UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have NO Life in yourselves. Iam the living bread that came down from heaven; if ANYONE (not just 144,00) eats this bread he will live forever. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood REMAINS in union with me and I in union with him."

    In the wilderness....ALL ate the same manna and drank from the rockmass, not just the levite priests. 1Corinthians 10:1-5

    This organization has "shut up the kingdom of God from its people" so as not to let them in, lying to them saying THEY as an organization through them and a fake governing body will give them life in a paradise.

    As the saying goes...A little leaven ferments the whole lump...when are people going to see that this organization is INFESTED with leaven (hypocrisy) , continually changing times, seasons and prophecies to fit their so-called "New Light".

    Quit touching the unclean thing so that our Lord and Savior and father can take you in!

    Just Mom

    porfiada posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 03:05:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 22 of 46
    Joined 1/11/2011

    Just mom

    You are probably right. I do not see how can anyone who believes to follow Christ and wish to value his sacrifice REFUSE to partake on the emblems of his blod and flesh's sacrifice.

    The CO of my ex congregation said t me that he believed that the numbers of partakers rose because people like to do as they used to do in their ordinary or former church.

    Clearly, in John 6:35-39 Jesus did not say that there was a second category or non-partakers that would anyway have their sins forgiven and live in paradise on earth. He made it pretty plain. You need to drink his blood and eat his flesh to gain everlasting life. I raised this issue to an old family friend and she just went on and on about how it was just his disciples at the last supper. However he had made this invitation BEFORE the last supper, to EVERYONE.

    That is why I have been thinking these days about how could we, ex jw and other people who have realized how deceptive the WTS is, make an international effort to COMBAT THE INCREASED PREACHING encouraged weeks before the memorial to INVITE NON JWs to the MEMORIAL.

    The WTS loves to count all the memorial visitors as prospective bible studies and future JWs. So if we can cut down the number of visitors we reduce the prospects of WTS of gaining more victims, and save their families from the divisions caused by this religion. THe WTS could not boast as much in their Yearbooks on the attendance to the this mostly NON-PARTAKING MEMORIAL.

    For example, we could have a facebook group THIS EASTER COMMEMORATE JESUS'S DEATH AND PARTAKE FROM HIS SACRIFICE: ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH WOULD DO. JUST DON'T GO THE JEHOVAH's WITNESSES MEMORIAL BECAUSE THEY EXPECT YOU NOT TO PARTAKE (You will only be warming the seat and not accepting the symbols of his sacrifice).

    The problem with facebook is of course that you are anonymous and most JWs and ex JWs cannot come out like that without getting further shunning.

    Anyone has any suggestions about how to do this? Any better ideas?

    justmom posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:41:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 36 of 202
    Joined 2/12/2010

    Dear porfiada...

    or.....instead of discouraging them from going...we could just go ourselves and show them what they "ALL" are supposed to be doing themselves as god's so-called chosen religion. Demonstrate to them that every year they pass over the bread and wine, they "pass over" life through a covenant that is open to all.

    just a thought

    Just mom

    donuthole posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:41:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 502 of 864
    Joined 4/26/2009

    While we have seen steady increase there was a huge jump the year the Society adjusted their view of 1935. This surge in partakers was not the result of confused converts but rather from Jehovah's Witnesses who had felt the need to partake for untold years but held back until they received permission from the Governing Body.

    M heathen posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 04:57:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 7842 of 8126
    Joined 4/13/2001

    are you kidding .they needed permission from brooklyn ? The apostle Paul did elaborate on those worthy and those not but apparently if you weren't going to eat and drink then you were to stay home. You really can only approve of yourself according to Paul, other wise you would eat and drink judgement against yourself . They just don't think the earthling class should do it since they are not part of the new covenent of the israel of God or known as the 144k. Earthlings are only equal to the foreign prosolytes that converted but had no legal rights as an Israelite in the mosaic system.

    justmom posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:04:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 37 of 202
    Joined 2/12/2010

    Hello Heathen (lol)

    appreciate your comment but when paul was asking each individual to scrutinize oneself...it wasn't whether or not one had a heavenly or earthly hope, remember there was only ONE hope offered. It was whether or not one had leaven or hatred in in heart for his brother. First to clear it and then take your sacrifice to the alter.

    Research some verses that mention "paradise earth" and notice the only I believe 3 verses that mention the word paradise has reference to the kingdom in heaven. There is not one verse that mentions paradise on earth.

    Just a thought

    justmom

    M james_woods posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:28:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 3703 of 12292
    Joined 10/26/2005
    While we have seen steady increase there was a huge jump the year the Society adjusted their view of 1935.

    Wait just a minute - did I miss something??? The Society has adjusted their view of 1935???

    sd-7 posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:40:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 1270 of 3760
    Joined 7/31/2009
    Wait just a minute - did I miss something??? The Society has adjusted their view of 1935???

    Yeah. May 1, 2007 Watchtower, page 30 or 31, I believe. I just looked it up this weekend myself, in fact, though I already knew about it.

    Also, the context of Paul's instructions about scrutinizing oneself was that people were treating the Lord's evening meal as just another meal, like they could eat their own personal food alongside it. There was an unbalanced view of it. The Corinthians needed to rethink how they viewed it, to see it as sacred. At least that's my thought on it.

    I think it would be scary to partake simply because JWs judge you on it. But I figured, on a more basic level, doesn't the great crowd wash its robes in the blood of the Lamb? How can that be reconciled with refusing to partake of the symbol that represents that blood? Doesn't make sense. The idea that some--MOST--are excluded from partaking doesn't seem to make sense when you think about the whole 'one flock, one shepherd' thing. If some in the flock have such an elevated position that only they can partake, isn't it really two flocks?

    I think a big change that would be welcomed would be for everyone to partake. I think it would be sad, though, because...why would anyone need to wait for man's permission to partake of things that the Lord has given? In its own way it would be embarrassing, a reflection of how little conscience JWs get to exercise.

    --sd-7

    M james_woods posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:45:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 3704 of 12292
    Joined 10/26/2005

    OK, so what did the May 1, 2007 Watchtower say?

    IIRC, the old view was that from 1931 to 1935 the numbers chosen to be new annointed withered away, and that past 1935 the Great Crowd (earthly non-annointed JWs) was chosen.

    Allowance was made that a very few new annointed could be selected post 1935, usually under the context that some previously annointed person had died "outside the truth" and needed to be replaced.

    So, what specifically has changed?

    sd-7 posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:52:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 1271 of 3760
    Joined 7/31/2009

    In short, there's no longer a specific date for when the calling of people to be anointed ends. There's another thread that's kind of active on a related topic, that actually has the specific quote from the article.

    This is clearly politics at its finest. (1) Remove 1935 date. (2) Change 'understanding' of Matt. 24:34 to 'this [anointed] generation. (3) Make sure it's clear that the generation whose lives overlapped with the [essentially all-dead] 1914 generation of anointed is the relevant one.

    In short, it's a passing of the torch to the new generation of Governing Body members. It makes them look especially important as the ones who will lead the JWs into the 'promised land' after...about 97 years of wandering in the wilderness. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't unpack my stuff, as much as THIS pillar of cloud seems to be moving...

    --sd-7

    Mad Sweeney posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:56:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 3847 of 6964
    Joined 11/2/2009

    Here's the QFR:

    Questions

    From

    Readers

    When

    doesthecallingofChristianstoaheavenlyhope

    cease?

    The Bible does not reveal a precise answer to that question. We do know that the anointing of Jesus’ disciples with a view to their heavenly inheritance began in 33 C.E. (Acts 2:1-4) We also know that after the death of the apostles, genuine anointed Christian “wheat” came to “grow together” with counterfeit Christians, “weeds.” (Matthew 13:24-30) Then, starting in the late 1800’s, anointed Christians were again prominently active. In 1919 “the harvest of the earth,” including the gathering of the final ones of the anointed, began to be reaped.—Revelation 14:15, 16.

    From the late 1800’s until 1931, the main thrust of the preaching work was the gathering of the remaining members of the body of Christ. In 1931 the Bible Students took the Bible-based name Jehovah’s Witnesses, and in the November 15, 1933, issue of TheWatchtower, the thought was expressed that this unique name was the “denarius” referred to in Jesus’ parable recorded at Matthew 20:1-16. The 12 hours mentioned in the parable were thought to correspond to the 12 years from 1919 to 1931. For many years after that, it was believed that the call to the heavenly Kingdom had ended in 1931 and that those called to be joint heirs with Christ in 1930 and 1931 were “the last” called. (Matthew 20:6-8) However, in 1966 an adjusted understanding of that parable was presented, and it became clear that it had nothing to do with the end of the calling of the anointed.

    In 1935 the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of “other sheep,” Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in “the last days” and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.

    Without a doubt, if one of the anointed unrepentantly falls away, Jehovah does call another individual to take his place. (Romans 11:17-22) However, the number of genuine anointed ones who have become unfaithful is likely not large. On the other hand, as time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8:16, 17) Thus, it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.

    How should a person be viewed who has determined in his heart that he is now anointed and begins to partake of the emblems at the Memorial? He should not be judged. The matter is between him and Jehovah. (Romans 14:12) However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special “insights,” beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have. They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the other sheep have; nor do they expect special treatment or claim that their partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation. They humbly remember that some anointed men in the first century did not qualify to serve as elders or ministerial servants. (1 Timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13; Titus 1:5-9; James 3:1) Some anointed Christians were even spiritually weak. (1 Thessalonians 5:14) And sisters, although anointed, did not teach in the congregation.—1 Timothy 2:11, 12.

    Hence, anointed Christians along with their other sheep companions strive to stay spiritually strong, cultivating the fruitage of the spirit and working for the peace of the congregation. All Christians, whether anointed or of the other sheep, work hard at preaching the good news and making disciples under the direction of the Governing Body. Anointed Christians are content to do this for as long as it is God’s will that they remain on earth as Jehovah’s servants.

    M james_woods posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:00:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 3707 of 12292
    Joined 10/26/2005

    Yup, thanks. I read it in the other thread.

    Like I posted there - the real problem here (which they cannot seem to get their heads around) is the claim that the 144,000 is a literal number.

    And secondarily, that it implies that there are two classes of christians; one over and above the other.

    Mad Sweeney posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:23:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 3848 of 6964
    Joined 11/2/2009

    They have so many classes and rankings now that they've given up even trying to use the word "class" anymore.

    At the top you have Jehovah God, who is nominally in charge of EVERYthing but doesn't actually DO ANYthing.

    Second, you have The Now Reigning King, Jesus Christ, who like Jehovah, is also nominally in charge but doesn't actually DO ANYthing.

    Then, you have those of the 144,000 anointed who have already died and been resurrected to heaven to rule as kings and priests for 1,000 years. Like their brother Jesus and dad Jehovah, these also do NOT do ANYthing at present.

    Then you have your legal officers and attorneys for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. This is the first group that actually does anything as you head down the corporate er, Kingdom ladder. These guys tell the Governing Body what to tell the rank and file JWs what to do.

    Next you have your Governing Body. These seven men sort of do things. Every Wednesday morning they meet for a couple hours to talk about the work their committees are doing and decide that the status quo is treating them all pretty well. If they feel saucy, they may discuss some new light to spring on the rank and file later in the year and commission someone in the Service Department to have it put into a talk outline and/or someone in the Writing Department to have it put into a magazine article. Otherwise they rubberstamp the orders from the corporate-types above or the suggestions from the Department heads below.

    Now the Department Heads (Committee Elders I think they are called) may have some authority because they have actual people working for them who they get to boss around. But they can't really change doctrine, not without permission. They can only create clever new ways to explain and enforce the doctrines on the rank and file JWs.

    Your Branch, District, and Circuit Overseers are next, in that order. They all do what they're told or they're replaced. But they can bully elders both locally and at the assembly/conventions, so that gives them a bit of an ego boost.

    The local elders hold your life in their hands. If you don't realize you have to kiss their ass you are in danger of being a free thinker and probably won't live out your whole life as a JW. You're already on your way out. If you want to stay IN, you will obey the local elders WITHOUT QUESTION. (I questioned, got counseled, it pissed me off enough to do research, and I left - there's just one anecdotal piece of evidence for you)

    Beneath the local elders are anointed brothers. They have no authority at all because like their heavenly counterparts, they are not allowed to DO ANYthing. They do get to drink a sip of wine and eat a cracker once a year though, so they've got that going for them.

    Beneath the anointed brothers comes Ministerial Servants. These are volunteer slaves. They do what they're told by the elders or they're replaced.

    Beneath Ministerial Servants are baptized brothers. These can be any age (usually between 8 and 100), as long as they have been baptized. They have no real authority unless there are females around.

    Beneath baptized brothers are anointed sisters. These are just like anointed brothers but they're women. They will never be more than they are.

    Beneath anointed sisters are regular baptized sisters. These are the lowest rank on the JW ladder. The only "priviledge" they qualify for is pioneering and cleaning.

    Which brings up pioneering. This isn't a separate rank because people from all ranks can be pioneers. But if you ARE a pioneer, you get a little bump in prestige, though no real extra juice.

    So that summarizes the JW "Class" system as it currently stands. The anointed could be divided into pre-1935 and post-1935 but really there aren't enough pre-1935 anointed still alive to be concerned with.

    M james_woods posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:42:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 3712 of 12292
    Joined 10/26/2005

    Mad Sweeney has provided the best heirarchial description of the JW world I have yet seen.

    May I add two sub-classes?

    First, JW non-baptised children from about 10 on up - you are required to do everything a baptised JW does but are not a real JW. You will be hounded to get baptised and avoid school, sports, or anything fun. You are required to go door to door.

    Second, JW non-baptised children from about 10 down - you will be taken to the back room and beaten black and blue if you misbehave. You are dragged to meetings whether you like it or not. Soon you will be advanced to a preteen JW kid - see above.

    justmom posted Thu, 20 Jan 2011 17:44:00 GMT(1/20/2011)

    Post 38 of 202
    Joined 2/12/2010

    Very good points everyone...

    As to the "old folks" handing over "the mantle" the generation who knew the gneration of 1914 (or whatever now...craziness)

    the so-called prophetic example I remember in the wilderness is because of their murmuring about losing their comfort zone and complaining about the manna(the bread from heaven), building a golden calf (the WTBS INC) because they NEEDED something they could SEE, (walking by the spirit...cloud and fire was not enough for them) and whining that the Lord is delaying (didn't come and take them all in 1914).....

    I believe THEY ALL died off! And not in a good kinda way!

    Funny that! Seems to be the same today. False prophets just never seem to get a clue. Always hiding behind that "new light".

    just a thought

    justmom

    porfiada posted Thu, 27 Jan 2011 08:26:00 GMT(1/27/2011)

    Post 34 of 46
    Joined 1/11/2011

    Hi Justmom

    Yeah probably your idea of just going and showing them what they should be doing according to Jesus' words, were will be doing better...and their numbers of partakers are increasing too because there have been such exJWS, like beforethesolstice says he did in YouTube

    <iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/F9U1A6BFFBA" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

    Please excuse if this link does not work, I copied the "embed code" from YouTube. The video is called "Ex-witnesses: Attend the 2010 memorial"

    Cheers

    Juan Viejo2 posted Thu, 27 Jan 2011 08:49:00 GMT(1/27/2011)

    Post 217 of 913
    Joined 6/17/2009

    They have so many classes and rankings now that they've given up even trying to use the word "class" anymore. -- Mad Sweeney

    Mad Sweeny - you have a PM

    porfiada posted Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:00:00 GMT(1/27/2011)

    Post 35 of 46
    Joined 1/11/2011

    Wow is this going to work? I hope the video does.

    porfiada posted Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:02:00 GMT(1/27/2011)

    Post 36 of 46
    Joined 1/11/2011

    video

    now?

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