WT Society wants Elders to Conceal Information to Psychiatrists- Elders Bk.

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    M flipper posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:30:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 11003 of 17482
    Joined 3/7/2007

    My wife and I have read carefully through Chapter 5 of the new elders manual when we do our " personal study " in bed on Saturday mornings ! So I felt it important to address this controlling information put out in Chapter 4 pg. 55 because it shows how the WT society is paranoid about ANY dirty laundry getting out to outside authority figures, whether it be police, psychiatrists, or ANYBODY who may expose indecent or improper conduct happening inside Jehovah's Witness congregations. Even IF such conduct may break the laws of the land resulting in needed intervention from outside " worldly " authorities.

    So without further delay , notice this quote from the new elders manual, " There are times when an emotionally distressed Christian may seek professional help. Whether a Christian or his family pursues treatment from psychiatrists , psychologists, or therapists is a personal decision. An elder should not assume the responsibility of RECOMMENDING a specific practioner or facility. He may draw attention to or discuss material IN THE PUBLICATIONS that provides CAUTIONS REGARDING THERAPIES that may conflict with Bible principles. ( WTF ? ) While participating in group therapy by a professional therapist is a matter for personal decision, there could be a REVEALING OF CONFIDENTIAL FACTS ABOUT OTHER MEMBERS OF THE CONGREGATION during such sessions if a Christian DOES NOT EXERCISE DISCRETION. "

    Let's break this down. So elders are told to ONLY give counsel to emotionally troubled witnesses from the WT publications ? How does THAT help the troubled person ? What if the individual NEEDS professional therapy or counseling from a liscenced psychiatrist ? Here is another angle to consider : What if a emotionally troubled ELDER has had to go to a professional therapist for counseling for depression and received help & benefits by such counseling ? So according to this book he is NOT allowed to recommend a therapist who might have helped him ? That is the message given by this information. An elder is ONLY allowed to give WT society publications information to counsel a depressed Jehovah's Witness. This is dangerous. The WT society is messing with people's lives and mental health. Is it any wonder so many witnesses remain in a depressed state ?

    Now- to my other point. The WT society rears it's ugly head in being a paranoid mind control cult by DISSING JW members who may reveal confidential matters to a psychiatrist about OTHER JW's. What does the WT society have to hide ? Could it be they are concerned about depressed JW's revealing THESE types of " confidential " matters that occur inside the Jehovah's Witness organization ? Child abuse, blood transfusions on minors without the child's consent, shunning of family members promoted by disfellowshipping, dissassociating, or even inactive members stopping attending meetings . Also injustices commited by elders towards rank & file members - unjust decisions , lies, gossiping, inaccurate character assault , slander, misrepresentation of REAL facts. ALL of these situations could possibly be revealed by a depressed Jehovah's Witness to a psychiatrist . Need I say more ?

    Bottom line is the WT society is running scared. They are VERY concerned about HOW MUCH information gets out to public authority figures regarding WHAT REALLY goes on inside their congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses. They are basically a " closed society " or a mind control cult who is hell bent on protecting it's assets which translates into it's members which translates into $$$$$ to keep 130 + years of deception continuing. So- Just my 2 cents. So what do YOU folks think about this information in the new elders manual ? Have you had any experiences that kind of go along with what is being discussed here ? As always- I look forward to your comments and takes on this. ALL of us have to protect ourselves from ANY manipulative organizations bent on taking our freedoms away. Take care all of you, Peace out to all, Mr. Flipper

    M OnTheWayOut posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:48:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 12465 of 18386
    Joined 9/8/2006

    I hate all things JW, but let us be balanced and fair.

    So elders are told to ONLY give counsel to emotionally troubled witnesses from the WT publications ? How does THAT help the troubled person ?

    They are only WT-publication trained. So they should not try to go beyond the scope of their training. The flaw is in their not really encouraging professional help for members.

    So according to this book he is NOT allowed to recommend a therapist who might have helped him ?

    That's gotta be from the law dept. If you recommend someone and something happens, they might sue WTS. Still, it's just paranoid and stupid. They should be able to really assist a member to find proper help, including personal recommendations. Let Jehovah protect the organization. Even short of Jehovah protecting it, courts would recognize the "Good Samaratan" aspect of helping a member by recommending or locating a professional, and they should be covered.

    The WT society rears it's ugly head in being a paranoid mind control cult by DISSING JW members who may reveal confidential matters to a psychiatrist about OTHER JW's. What does the WT society have to hide ?

    Of course that whole idea is stupid paranoia. People that go to professionals do talk about their co-worker, their family, the people they serve side-by-side with (like other JW's). The confidentiality resides in the professional. I mean the way this is written, if you want to discuss a problem about your spouse or your parent or your sibling, it is highly likely that you will reveal that they did something you consider immoral if not illegal. That's what is discussed. If it is criminal and likely to cause actual hurt to people, then the professional has to turn over information that will start an investigation. That's more than the JW elders will do, so it's a good thing.

    But most stuff is benign and never leaves the room. C'mon WTS. Get your heads outta your asses.

    designs posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:52:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 3064 of 19073
    Joined 6/17/2009

    The Society thought most psychiatric therapy was ala Esalen with naked bodies in hot tubs and sitting cheek to cheek.

    ...say, not a bad idea

    LV101 posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 02:24:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 112 of 1785
    Joined 5/25/2005

    know of a couple of churches that have clinical psychologists onboard to help their members. oh, that's right, w/tower doesn't have professionals as members (well, very few) or any referral assistance other than advise re/financial aid so they'll have free time to sell magazines to advance themselves inside the hall.

    LV101

    bottleofwater posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 02:50:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 247 of 347
    Joined 9/23/2010

    Or even in other issues.

    Instead of getting people counseling for those who are of queer sexualities, here is their dangerous and unhelpful advice (not in that order):

    1. Don't do anything.
    2. We are right, they are wrong. So don't get counseling, only read the five articles about it that just either tell you it's your fault, your parents' fault, and hang in there until you die. Include inaccurate statistics and statements that don't rely on real facts and figures.
    3. You were lying because you didn't tell your parents earlier and you should've because that was important.
    4. Get married.

    Scully posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 03:28:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 15917 of 13515
    Joined 11/2/2001

    flipper:

    Let's break this down. So elders are told to ONLY give counsel to emotionally troubled witnesses from the WT publications? How does THAT help the troubled person?

    In some respects this is a very appropriate thing to do. Elders™' area of expertise is WT publications and (apparently) offering spiritual guidance. I wouldn't want them to be giving me advice regarding psychological counselling, or any other crunchy granola kind of treatment for depression. The reasoning must be - from a purely legal standpoint - that Elders™ should offer counsel that does not go beyond their "scope of practice". They are not medically trained (usually) and could be - in a situation that went badly as a result - accused of "practicing medicine without a licence" if they offered medical advice, particularly medical advice in matters of mental health. Their area of expertise is the Bible and WT publications, and if the troubled person asks them to offer encouragement or help to cheer them up, that is within their scope of practice.

    What if the individual NEEDS professional therapy or counseling from a liscenced psychiatrist?

    There's nothing there that prevents an Elder™, or any member of a JW Congregation™ from saying/asking: "I'm really concerned about you and your well-being. Is this something your family doctor is helping you with?" / "Do you need a support person to accompany you to your doctor's visits?" Those are actually practical suggestions that direct the individual to appropriate services, without imposing personal opinion or offering quasi-medical / alternative treatments that may cause more harm than good.

    Here is another angle to consider: What if a emotionally troubled ELDER has had to go to a professional therapist for counseling for depression and received help & benefits by such counseling? So according to this book he is NOT allowed to recommend a therapist who might have helped him? That is the message given by this information.

    I think this is actually another Legal Department™ recommendation. Remember the hierarchy and the "power" differential between an Elder™ and the average JW Publisher™. Even when you are associating together as peers and just "shooting the breeze", the boundaries between "friends" and "clergy/ congregation member" can become very easily blurred. It's the same reason why doctors and nurses are cautioned against having friends and family members as patients. Again, there's nothing written there that would prevent any congregation member from suggesting the person seek appropriate referrals from their own physician.

    Personally, I'd be inclined to think that Elders™ would want to refrain from disclosing to the average JW Publisher™ the fact that they were under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist, at all costs. After all, they are the ones expected to set the example for all to see of how they are part of The Happiest People on Earth™.

    An elder is ONLY allowed to give WT society publications information to counsel a depressed Jehovah's Witness. This is dangerous. The WT society is messing with people's lives and mental health. Is it any wonder so many witnesses remain in a depressed state?

    I would think it to be even MORE dangerous for them to offer medical advice without a licence. As long as there is an understanding between the Elder(s)™ and the congregation member that their role is to provide spiritual guidance, spiritual encouragement, and NOT to influence the individual's personal choice in seeking medical attention, they are operating within their scope of practice.

    I know from personal experience the effects of JWs trying to dissuade me from seeking medical attention when I really needed it - with specific instructions "Don't tell the shrink you're a Witness or he'll think we're all crazy" (notice the negative connotations in that one sentence: "shrink" = pejorative; "he'll think we're all crazy" = "you're crazy") - so I'm thinking that any directives from the Mother-Ship that basically instructs Elders™ to (a) operate within their scope of practice/expertise, (b) not to attempt to negatively influence an individual's choice to seek medical attention, are good ones.

    M flipper posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 03:45:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 11009 of 17482
    Joined 3/7/2007

    Thanks for the replies. Good points you bring out.

    OTWO- Good points you bring out. I agree with you that the WT society is watching their legal behind in telling elders NOT to recommend any particular psychiatrist to members. Your statement, " If it is criminal and likely to cause actual hurt to people, then the professional has to turn over information that will start an investigation . " And THAT STATEMENT in my opinion is why the WT society gives this directive to the elders. They are all about information CONTROL. And they are all about OUTWARD appearance. It's HOW they appear to people on the outside that's important- not actually the REALITY of what's going on inside the cult that's important. And to me- I feel that's the most dangerous part of all about the WT society.

    DESIGNS- " Naked bodies in hot tubs and sitting cheek to cheek. " Yeah, a pretty nice scenario you paint there. What could the WT society POSSIBLY find wrong with THAT ? LOL !

    LV 101- That WOULD be a good idea if the WT society had some clinical trained psychologists on board to offer professional advice to depressed people. However the WT society emphasizes their OWN publications so much - I find it difficult to believe they would ever give ANY validity to a " worldly trained " psychologist or psychiatrist , whether they were a JW or not.

    BOTTLEOFWATER- Exactly. WT society will ALWAYS emphasize their own publications & articles first- even if it is loaded with BS information which would do further damage to depressed people. They are so arrogant - they can't or won't admit that witnesses could actually be assisted in a positive way by professional therapists. Peace out, Mr. Flipper

    baltar447 posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 04:09:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 316 of 2314
    Joined 3/11/2006

    LOL, this is too funny. I was talking with a couple elders one time and they both were on anti depressants. Need a shrink for that script I think?

    One elder really helped someone close to me with his marriage by recommending a therapist for his wife, probably saved his marriage as his wife was really depressed and had issues. I guess with this new edict on that situation now he'd be sol since that elder would get into trouble for recommending it.

    baltar447 posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 04:12:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 317 of 2314
    Joined 3/11/2006

    Sorry, it's not funny. People's lives can be ruined by idiotic policies.

    Perhaps the pharisees had an edict of not helping someone that was beaten up by the side of the road, Probably a rule they made so they wouldn't been seen around the man to avoid the appearance of something improper.

    Palimpsest posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 04:19:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 232 of 346
    Joined 10/4/2009

    I am really, really, REALLY happy to see them banning elders from recommending therapists. There was a pretty legendary JW psychologist in my area who became the go-to guy for elders who wanted to make suggestions. Elders were basically funneling patients to that guy, giving him a nice steady income. Making matters worse, since this guy was a JW himself, he only gave "Scripturally-based" therapy, AND he would rat people out to their elders if they admitted to any wrongdoing. He broke pretty much every ethical standard in the book, but no one dared go up against him -- after all, you can't get your fellow JW in trouble with the state licensing board. So as far as I'm concerned, this is terrific news. That may very well be the only situation like this that's ever happened with JWs, since they discourage psychology so much, but if it happened once, it's good to know it's banned from happening again.

    If anyone is from Connecticut, by the way, you might remember him...I won't give his full name, since he died a few years ago and I don't want to drag his name through that, but he was based in New Britain and people used to drive from all over the state to go see him. I remember going to appointments at his office with my mother when she was going through his half-assed "grief counseling," and it was the weirdest place ever...it was located in a converted home, across from a roller skating rink (if I remember correctly), and the waiting room had WT magazines instead of regular ones. And his office didn't have windows. I remember it always creeping me out for some reason.

    LV101 posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 05:59:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 114 of 1785
    Joined 5/25/2005

    what i've heard (and read on this board), many witnesses are on prescription drugs for depression, etc., and how many more self medicate w/alcohol. if they did have onboard psychological/psychiatric services the docs would have locked in security. (i realize they would never have use for professionals to help their flock inside).

    sounds like they keep the mental health field professionals busy already unless they obtain meds through their general practitioner.

    LV101

    M OnTheWayOut posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:46:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 12468 of 18386
    Joined 9/8/2006
    The Society thought most psychiatric therapy was ala Esalen with naked bodies in hot tubs and sitting cheek to cheek.

    You just described my group therapy sessions. Gotta keep the bong outside the hot tub, though. Someone keeps spilling it's contents.

    designs posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:49:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 3071 of 19073
    Joined 6/17/2009

    Did you get better

    M flipper posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:17:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 11010 of 17482
    Joined 3/7/2007

    Gonna be tied up for a few days- won't be able to respond until Monday, but thought I'd bump this up for any weekenders who want to respond with some thoughts. Thanks. Peace out, Mr. Flipper

    M OnTheWayOut posted Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:21:00 GMT(12/3/2010)

    Post 12478 of 18386
    Joined 9/8/2006

    Mrs. Flipper is pretty kinky.

    ziddina posted Sat, 04 Dec 2010 00:38:00 GMT(12/4/2010)

    Post 3470 of 10450
    Joined 4/8/2009

    Marking...

    And adding a comment.

    When I was "in", married to that alcoholic-pool-hall-gambling-ski-bum Jehovah's Witness husband, my depression got bad enough that I sought "professional" help - hah, hah, hah....

    The elders - or my mother - recommended some JW elder who was supposedly some sort of psychologist. Of course, the first session basically involved a biblical discussion of my role as the "weaker" female - and how I was suposed to be in "submission", even to a jack*ss like that drunken bum I married...

    Needless to say, I only went two or three times - and the sessions CERTAINLY didn't lift my depression!!

    Yuuuuukkkk...

    The point you raised, Flipper;

    "Could it be they are concerned about depressed JW's revealing THESE types of " confidential " matters that occur inside the Jehovah's Witness organization ? Child abuse, blood transfusions on minors without the child's consent, shunning of family members promoted by disfellowshipping, dissassociating, or even inactive members stopping attending meetings . Also injustices commited by elders towards rank & file members - unjust decisions , lies, gossiping, inaccurate character assault , slander, misrepresentation of REAL facts. ALL of these situations could possibly be revealed by a depressed Jehovah's Witness to a psychiatrist. ..."

    But this point: "or even inactive members stopping attending meetings"... I would say, more like the inactive ones being hounded by the elders, sometimes even to the point of having an elder or two stake out the inactive one's house and otherwise invade their privacy.

    Also, I wonder whether "blood transfusions on minors without the child's consent" would be more like, "childrens' health and life put at risk due to religious edicts threatening any parents who allow their child to have proper medical treatment though disapproved of, by the religious leaders, with disfellowshipment - "spiritual" death..."

    THAT would play well with a psychiatrist or psychologist...

    Zid

    M flipper posted Tue, 07 Dec 2010 03:50:00 GMT(12/7/2010)

    Post 11021 of 17482
    Joined 3/7/2007

    Been out of town for a few days so sorry for the delay in answering. You all make some very good points ! Thanks for the replies.

    SCULLY- I agree- I wouldn't want an elder to counsel me either for a depression problem as they ARE NOT qualified to do so. But the LEAST they could do is advise a JW to go to a particular professional therapist , but this new elders book tells elders they are NOT allowed to do that. They can only say it's up to a JW's conscience. AND that if a JW goes to a therapist not to rat out anybody from the congregation about any dirty laundry which might have disturbed the depressed person. So it's " information control" once again which the WT society is very adept at doing.

    BALTAR 447- Isn't it ironic that an elder got help to heal his own depression and marriage from professional counseling- but he is not allowed to recommend it to rank & file members ? Definitely a double standard.

    PALIMPSEST- Interesting response by you. I can for sure understand why you would be relieved to hear that elders aren't to recommend a therapist, especially with the weird JW psychologist you talked about. That being said , it's better generally for JW's to get help for depression by a lisenced therapist than spilling their guts to elders without any training.

    LV 101- I knew a lot of JW's on prescription medication for depression too.

    ITSACULT- You aren't a doctor but stayed at the Holiday Inn express ? O.K. I'm happy for you. And your point is .......... ?

    OTWO- You sound like you have some pretty exciting group therapy sessions ! LOL !

    ZIDDINA- Yeah, you make a really good point. When female witnesses are told to get " counseling " from elders the alleged " counsel " will always be laced with how the lady should show " submission " even to dickhead husbands like you said you had. My JW older sister went through this as well. She was married for 20 years to a abusive JW guy who beat the snot out of her - when she talked to the elders about it they asked her, " What are you doing that makes him mad ? Are you showing proper submission ? ' Those elders were just plain idiots !

    I'm glad you were able to go to a therapistduring that bad marriage to your ex. Very true what you say how elders harass and stalk JW's who stop attending meetings. And if psychiatrists and therapists heard about elders counseling people to NOT give blood transfusions to save childrens lives - I can only imagine the $hit storm THAT would start if it was more widely known. Take care, Peace out, Mr. Flipper

    BabaYaga posted Tue, 07 Dec 2010 04:34:00 GMT(12/7/2010)

    Post 4548 of 4549
    Joined 8/30/2006

    Gross and horrific, really... thank heavens we are free! Now, for our loved ones...

    Thank you for posting this, Mr. Flipper! Give that gorgeous Mrs. Flipper a big hug from the Baba.

    M flipper posted Wed, 08 Dec 2010 02:10:00 GMT(12/8/2010)

    Post 11027 of 17482
    Joined 3/7/2007

    BABA YAGA- You are welcome ! I thought it was important to see how the WT society is training elders to treat our JW families so we can be one step ahead of them. I'm so glad we are free, and you are right- now let's work on our JW families. I'll give my wife a big hug for you ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper

    Scully posted Wed, 08 Dec 2010 02:26:00 GMT(12/8/2010)

    Post 15920 of 13515
    Joined 11/2/2001

    flipper:

    I wouldn't want an elder to counsel me either for a depression problem as they ARE NOT qualified to do so. But the LEAST they could do is advise a JW to go to a particular professional therapist , but this new elders book tells elders they are NOT allowed to do that.

    I think there's good reason for that too, aside from the Legal Department™'s penchant to keep the Organization™'s ass covered. I'm sure the JWs of your acquaintance weren't very different from mine - I know of several JWs in the various Congregations™ we attended that recommended all manner of alternative therapies, ranging from iridology (and the Elder™ whose wife was the practitioner of iridology very conveniently sold the herbal remedies that she happened to recommend), to hair sampling, to weird diets and such. In some cases, there was almost a cult-like following of these practitioners, who claimed to be able to cure things like parasites in the brain (I'm not making this up!) to ADHD and even mental illness. I think this is the exact reason why the WTS is now instructing Elders™ to avoid recommending practitioners of any kind - because of the history of referrals to crackpots and charlatans, that end up doing little to help, and sometimes contribute to harm, and ALWAYS divert cash flow away from the WTS.

    They can only say it's up to a JW's conscience. AND that if a JW goes to a therapist not to rat out anybody from the congregation about any dirty laundry which might have disturbed the depressed person. So it's " information control" once again which the WT society is very adept at doing.

    The only problem I have with the censorship / information control in a therapeutic relationship is that without the entire picture, including the individual's core beliefs and values, it's a waste of time and money spent on a therapist. The therapist is unable to address the issues from a holistic point of view, because a vital part of the history is censored out. The WTS is still very good at creating a kind of paranoia about the helping professions, whether it's a physician (whose main objective as far as some JWs are concerned is to trick you into taking blood), a psychiatrist (who is going to hypnotize you and get you to leave The Truth™, or anyone else who could be nicer to you than JWs are and start making you doubt the belief system.

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