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Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
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Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:28:00 GMT
(7/31/2010)
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Post 1477 of 5153 Since 5/12/2009 |
From page 12:
The theory of evolution tries to account for the origin of life on earth without the necessity of divine intervention. FALSE: Simply plain false on both accounts. However, the more that scientists discover about life, the less likely it appears that it could arise by chance. FALSE: Author state conclusion which is not supported by the text. This is the key to the section. To sidestep this dilemma FALSE: There is no dilemma. Loaded language. some evolutionary scientists would like BZZZ: Loaded language (some, would like) to make a distinction between the theory of evolution and the Question of the origin of life. FALSE: There is such a destinction per definition. Notice the author has allready concluded this destinction does not exist, now he want to pose it as a question. But does that sound reasonable to you? BZZZZ: Argument from readers ignorance. Author is asking questions he has allready answered. The theory of evolution rests on the notion that a long series of fortunate accidents produced life to start with. FALSE: by definition. Author is restating conclusion and answering his own rethorical question. It then proposes thal another series of undirected accidents produced the astonishing diversity and complexity of all living things. FALSE: This is not what evolution says. However, if the foundation of the theory is missing, FALSE: Its not because its an invented controversy. The author never provide evidence for this. what happens to the other theories that are built on this assumption? FALSE: Author is trying to cook up a false logical connection. Just as a skyscraper built without a foundation would collapse, a theory of evolution that cannot explain the origin of life will crumble. FALSE: False analogy. The author yet again reaffirms they are connected. FALSE: The author use his false logical connection. The statement is obviously untrue because it would apply equally to genetics and germ theory. After briefly considering the structure and function of a "simple" cell what do you see-evidence of many accidents or proof of brilliant design? FALSE: Fallacy of excluding the middle. Neither of the two options are evolution. FALSE: Allready stated the conclusion, namely that the more scientists learn about life, the less likely the chance hypothesis is. Fallacy of begging the question. If you are still unsure, BZZZ: He talks to the reader like the reader is a child. BZZZ: Wonderfull way it is phrased: If YOU are still unsure (ie. I am not) then ... take a closer look at the "'master program" that controls the functions of all cells. The most scary part IMHO is how the author state the conclusion authoritatively multiple times, and ask the reader in different ways inbetween. Also notice the word chance is used 4 times in the short section. What do i think? I think the author is full of shit. I also think it could be fun to name the fallacies and make it into a youtube video with a buzzer and a counter for each error. Link to previous topic i did on the same brochure: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/196792/1/Blatant-misquote-in-the-Origin-of-Life-booklet Question for lurkers: Why is the slave puplishing things which are so obviously wrong? |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:59:00 GMT
(7/31/2010)
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Post 943 of 2144 Since 9/27/2009 |
The 'slave' is publishing things that are obviously wrong because the R&F will, for the most part, never think to check these things for accuracy. I took this stuff for granted for years and years. I used to chuckle to myself at those scientists who the WTS would quote, and think to myself, "How can they admit so many problems with their theory yet still cling to it?" The day I decided to look at what those "stupid agenda-driven scientists" actually had to say was the day my exit began. For me, the issue is not whether life was created, or whether it has evolved since then. The issue is that they lied to me, over and over and over again.
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wobble
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sat, 31 Jul 2010 14:18:00 GMT
(7/31/2010)
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![]() Post 3159 of 6020 Since 2/20/2008 |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:59:00 GMT
(7/31/2010)
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Post 348 of 648 Since 3/28/2009 |
I'm working on an analysis of the article "Has All Life Descended from a Common Ancestory?" in the Origin brochure (but have become bogged down with other stuff!) which I'll eventually post. While the WT is up to its old tricks of taking quotes out of context, it's worth noting, apart from the logical fallacies that bohm has nicely highlighted here, that the rhetorical approach is also carefully contrived to lead to a desired yet unsubstantiated conclusion: The writer will state a claim, then use a quote as evidence, then move directly into another claim, rather than explaining how the quote supports the claim made, what the connection is between the quote and the point that the writer is desiring to make. For example, on p. 23, the brochure makes the claim "Recent research continues to contradict Darwin's theory of common descent." It then goes directly into 2 quotes, one by Bapteste: "We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality," and one by Rose about how the tree of life is being buried. But rather than explaining what the connection is between these quotes and common descent or, more importantly, how these quotes relate back to the central claim of the whole article itself, which is that there are "fixed barriers separating the different kinds" (p.22), the article goes directly into the next subheading, leaving the reader to make the connection on his or her own, in all likelihood presuming that these quoted scientists (Bapteste and Rose) are disputing common descent in toto. However, a review of the New Scientist article from which these quotes are taken quickly reveals that they are speaking of gene swapping among unicellular organisms--bacteria and viruses. "As early as 1993, some were proposing that for bacteria and archaea, the tree of life was more like a web," the original New Scientist article states. "By sheer weight of numbers almost all the living things on Earth are microbes. It would be perverse to claim that the evolution of life on Earth resembles a tree just because multicellular life evolved that way." (emphasis added). Hmm...I think it's clear to see why the writer conveniently avoids explaining how the quote relates to the claim, don't you? Why did my typing get so small? |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:33:00 GMT
(7/31/2010)
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Post 1478 of 5153 Since 5/12/2009 |
Cadellin: I cant wait reading your analysis, im also working on one of exactly that chapter! Its a very fine point. The booklets consist entirely op the oppinion of the authors mixed with quotes from scientists which are not explained. no arguments are advanced, no facts presented, its just oppinions. kind of hard to debunk really. |
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PrimateDave
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:06:00 GMT
(7/31/2010)
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![]() Post 1637 of 1726 Since 5/22/2006 |
Very well done! Unfortunately, my mother has swallowed these brochures whole. Simple, "common sense logic" is very appealing to her. Any time Evolution is mentioned on television, she gets exasperated at the "ignorance" of the narrator of the nature program. She wanted me to read the brochures, and I obliged. However, I do not want to discuss this topic with her. Such a discussion will do me no good. I think she is under the misguided impression that my atheism is rooted in Evolution. No, my non-theism is more rooted in a disbelief in the deities of the Jewish mythologies. The book of Genesis is one of the most absurd literary works anyone could base a belief system upon. Bohm, you illustrate very well the logical hoops that the WTS has to jump through in support of literalist, inerrantist theology. I could concede intelligent design, but then who designed the designer? |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sun, 01 Aug 2010 09:25:00 GMT
(8/1/2010)
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Post 1479 of 5153 Since 5/12/2009 |
PrimateDave: Sorry about your mom. I wonder to what extend they are actually trying to distort the conversation (for example, redefining terms like atheist, etc.), and to what extend they believe they are doing everything right. It must take a special mindset to go through book after book on evolution and just cherry pick the passages that can be twisted to your liking. Its a bit funny when you think of it that the brochure is ment as a presentation of facts the reader can make up his mind upon, ie. somewhat balanced. Yet while they could poke hole after hole in the scientific attempts to explanations, they could not find a single disputable point in a book about magic and talking animals. "who designed the designer" - all conversations on evolution seem to spiral back to that question. it should have a name :-).
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Pistoff
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Sun, 01 Aug 2010 17:56:00 GMT
(8/1/2010)
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![]() Post 2122 of 2899 Since 7/8/2002 |
I agree on the point made, the booklet is about the Origin of Life, something that evolution does not attempt to answer. Witnesses are incredibly ignorant of the idea that theory in science is not what it is in non science matters, and booklets like this one are making the average witness even more subject to ridicule.
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 05:30:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 1483 of 5153 Since 5/12/2009 |
Pistoff: Whats frustrating is thats its so easy to explain even a child can understand it!
Now consider the two models: Scientific model:
The JW model:
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 06:28:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 1905 of 2158 Since 1/31/2001 |
The theory of evolution tries to account for the origin of life on earth without the necessity of divine intervention. CORRECT: That was Darwin’s strategy from the beginning, to show no God was needed.. However, the more that scientists discover about life, the less likely it appears that it could arise by chance. CORRECT: Hence the extreme silence as to this first step. But once this step has been achieved, then the theories come into action. To sidestep this dilemma CORRECT: There is a huge dilemma.. to make a distinction between the theory of evolution and the Question of the origin of life. CORRECT: There is a huge silence on the Origin question, but an equally huge literature on the Evolution question. The theory of evolution rests on the notion that a long series of fortunate accidents produced life to start with. CORRECT: That is what it is all about. It then proposes that another series of undirected accidents produced the astonishing diversity and complexity of all living things. CORRECT: That is what evolution says. However, if the foundation of the theory is missing, CORRECT: The step-by-step changes are not explained in detail.. what happens to the other theories that are built on this assumption? CORRECT: They end up void. Just as a skyscraper built without a foundation would collapse, a theory of evolution that cannot explain the origin of life will crumble. CORRECT: Once a foundation is made, anything can be constructed, but they have no foundation. After briefly considering the structure and function of a "simple" cell what do you see-evidence of many accidents or proof of brilliant design? CORRECT: I see nothing but proof of brilliant design. A design that can be ascribed to a Creator or to Evolution – but not to Darwinism - but design is what I see. |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 07:17:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 345 of 11080 Since 2/3/2010 |
CORRECT: The step-by-step changes are not explained in detail.. Why is step-by-step detail required? -Sab |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 07:47:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 1484 of 5153 Since 5/12/2009 |
The theory of evolution tries to account for the origin of life on earth without the necessity of divine intervention. CORRECT: That was Darwin’s strategy from the beginning, to show no God was needed..
However, the more that scientists discover about life, the less likely it appears that it could arise by chance. CORRECT: Hence the extreme silence as to this first step. But once this step has been achieved, then the theories come into action.
To sidestep this dilemma CORRECT: There is a huge dilemma..
to make a distinction between the theory of evolution and the Question of the origin of life. CORRECT: There is a huge silence on the Origin question, but an equally huge literature on the Evolution question.
The theory of evolution rests on the notion that a long series of fortunate accidents produced life to start with. CORRECT: That is what it is all about.
It then proposes that another series of undirected accidents produced the astonishing diversity and complexity of all living things. CORRECT: That is what evolution says.
However, if the foundation of the theory is missing, CORRECT: The step-by-step changes are not explained in detail..
what happens to the other theories that are built on this assumption? CORRECT: They end up void.
Just as a skyscraper built without a foundation would collapse, a theory of evolution that cannot explain the origin of life will crumble. CORRECT: Once a foundation is made, anything can be constructed, but they have no foundation.
After briefly considering the structure and function of a "simple" cell what do you see-evidence of many accidents or proof of brilliant design? CORRECT: I see nothing but proof of brilliant design. A design that can be ascribed to a Creator or to Evolution – but not to Darwinism - but design is what I see.
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PrimateDave
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:28:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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![]() Post 1638 of 1726 Since 5/22/2006 |
I used to believe in Intelligent Design. I read Behe's popular book promoting ID. It was a fascinating read, and it quite cemented my attachment to JW Creationism at the time. Of course, this was long before I had access to the internet, back in the mid 1990s. If you had asked me where I would be in 2010 back then, I would have told you I would be in the ParadiseTM.
So, it wasn't until I finally allowed myself to be completely open minded in my search for knowledge that I was able to learn some necessary concepts for understanding the Evolution of life. And it finally struck me, the absurdity of the Biblical Creation account and its reinterpretation by the WTS to appear to be "scientific." Not only do they incorrectly reinterpret this old Jewish myth, they knowingly hide the best Biblical scholarship available which places ancient Jewish literature within its proper historical context. There is no question that the "Origin of Life" brochure is a propaganda piece. There are a lot of hidden assumptions contained within it, many of which are not exclusive to the Witnesses. If there is one thing I have learned, the Witnesses are not so different from the "world" as they would like to think, as many of their internal narratives are simply rebadged versions of those found in the broader culture of Western Civilization. (I have to go now. I may try to write some more on this later.) |
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BurnTheShips
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:40:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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![]() Post 16650 of 19013 Since 8/28/2006 |
That brochure is so full of errors, inaccuracies, and ham headed reasoning, it is really....ridiculous. The sad thing is that most JWs are so scientifically illiterate that they will find it convincing. The other thing is, whoever wrote this had to know. This is a very dishonest polemic. That is disgraceful. One of us, or several of us, should collaborate on writing a comprehensive, easy to understand* response to this brochure, and post it somewhere like Freeminds. If I wasn't so busy I'd do it myself. *minimal jargon, clear reasoning, low grade level language and sentence structure. BTS |
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BurnTheShips
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:42:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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![]() Post 16651 of 19013 Since 8/28/2006 |
Bohm, I think the distinction between evolution and abiogenesis is artificial. I think that we will see the same evolutionary activities of self replicating proteins as part of the continuum of what happens in what we call "life." BTS |
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sir82
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:49:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Mongolia Post 4515 of 7780 Since 5/17/2005 |
I'm not sure how to research this, but I'm about 95% certain that the line of "reasoning" used in the brochure comes virtually verbatim from already-published creationist sources. The Society is pretty much incapable of original thought - at the very least, it takes an active imagination to concoct the arguments used in the brochure. The collected imagination of the writing department would be hard-pressed to dream up a name for a puppy, much less construct the arguments used in the brochure. Don't get me started about their collected intelligence. At best they could reword slightly the ideas presented by someone else. That is what I suspect has happened here. |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:00:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 2657 of 7382 Since 11/2/2009 |
Dear Bohm, don't you know that every snowflake is unique because Jehovah God makes them that way? No other natural factors come into play. He is just THAT interested in the wonderful arts of wintertime! |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:02:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 2658 of 7382 Since 11/2/2009 |
One of us, or several of us, should collaborate on writing a comprehensive, easy to understand* response to this brochure, and post it somewhere like Freeminds. If I wasn't so busy I'd do it myself. *minimal jargon, clear reasoning, low grade level language and sentence structure.
If someone writes or compiles one, I'm willing to edit it. |
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:20:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 349 of 648 Since 3/28/2009 |
There is a huge silence on the Origin question, but an equally huge literature on the Evolution question.The theory of evolution rests on the notion that a long series of fortunate accidents produced life to start with. CORRECT: That is what it is all about. It then proposes that another series of undirected accidents produced the astonishing diversity and complexity of all living things. Old Hippie: The Society perpetuates the strawman argument that evolution proceeds by "undirected accidents" or "blind chance." While chance plays a part in virtually everything, to ascribe evolution as resting upon that solely is simply false. Natural selection has been proven to be a dramatic, effective and, in some cases, astonishingly fast-acting design force, both in the lab and in nature. In fact, that was the whole point of Peter and Rosemary Grant's research on Darwin's finches--not to prove that somehow over the course of a few decades they'd turn into hippos but that environmental forces could produce--design, in fact--measurable changes in morphology. The theory of evolution rests on many things but "fortunate accidents" is not one of them. I'd like to point out, as well, the use of the word "notion," which the Origin brochure uses repeatedly as a way of trivializing the hard science upon which modern biology rests, as if scientists spend their time following silly little sentiments unconnected with any real proof. Burn the Ships: I like your idea and it might work, however, the current state of evolutionary science is complex and resistant to easy dumbing-down. That's one of the difficulties with really explaining some of the absurdities in the brochure well; the WT writers have exploited shifts in understanding (like the punctuated equilibrium controversy from the 1970's which has long been settled, and the more recent squabbling over cladistics) in order to harvest their quotes but understanding the errors means understanding the underlying issues, which often requires at least a fundamental knowledge of evolution and the history of the science. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, and I'd be willing to help, but it will be a challenge to say the least. I'm hoping the analysis I'm working on now will accomplish something similar but I'm finding that my analysis is longer than the article ("Has All Life Descended from a Common Ancestor?" p. 22)
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Re: Counting the errors in one section of the Origin of Life brouchure
posted Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:28:00 GMT
(8/2/2010)
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Post 350 of 648 Since 3/28/2009 |
Oh, and Old Hippie, there's not a "huge silence" on the origin question--in fact, the Gordons article quoted repeatedly in the Origin brochure as well as the Shapiro article from Scientific American, quoted in the first article of the brochure, both discuss recent research in abiogenesis. A few minutes of careful research online will reveal an abundance of info, though admittedly, there's not the numbers of scientists working in the field as in others. Why? One reason is the sheer weight of time and the convulsive changes that have occurred to the planet since then. It's difficult to research something when all the original material is gone. But that doesn't mean research isn't happening and hypotheses being formed and tested. |


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