How many JW's in the nazi camps?

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    Norm posted Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:00:00 GMT(1/16/2002)

    Post 452 of 660
    Joined 3/12/2001

    How Many Jehovah's Witnesses in the Concentration Camps?

    How many Jehovah’s Witnesses was there in Germany before and shortly after the war? How many were arrested, and how many did die in concentration camps? The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society know this perfectly well, but don’t seem to be quite satisfied with the number of casualties. Somehow 635 dead, during the Nazi years doesn’t quite satisfy Brooklyn. They have however found it convenient to use the “estimates” done by “modern scientists” which they in all other matters will claim have “no real knowledge”.

    The number of deaths however isn’t the only thing the Watchtower has great difficulties with. They can’t seem to make up their minds about how many Witnesses there actually were in Germany before the war, and seem to be equally confused about the number of Witnesses after the war too. If the Watchtower Society’s handling of this matter is any indication of the accuracy of the other so-called “truth” distributed by them, there is absolutely no need to trust them. Let us investigate some of the material printed by the Watchtower:

    *** yb74 212 Germany (Part One) ***
    “But despite the hard conditions, how those who worshiped Jehovah rejoiced! They had been privileged to prove their integrity to the Sovereign Ruler of the universe. During Hitler’s rule 1,687 of them had lost their jobs, 284 their businesses, 735 their homes and 457 were not allowed to carry on their trade. In 129 cases their property had been confiscated, 826 pensioners had been refused their pensions and 329 others had suffered other personal loss. There were 860 children who had been taken away from their parents. In 30 cases marriages had been dissolved due to pressure by political officials, and in 108 cases divorces had been granted when requested by mates opposed to the truth. A total of 6,019 had been arrested, several two, three or even more times, so that, all together, 8,917 arrests were registered. All together they had been sentenced to serve 13,924 years and two months in prison, two and a quarter times as long as the period since Adam’s creation. A total of 2,000 brothers and sisters had been put into concentration camps, where they had spent 8,078 years and six months, an average of four years. A total of 635 had died in prison, 253 had been sentenced to death and 203 of these had actually been executed. What a record of integrity!”

    As we can see, the Watchtower did have accurate figures. The Watchtower leaders have always been “control freaks”, and “Judge” Rutherford was not less so than the later leaders. Here are the figures again:

    Arrested 6,019. Total number of arrests 8,917*. Total number in concentration camps 2,000. Died in prison 635. Actually executed 203.
    * Some were arrested many times.

    With these numbers in mind, let us then investigate what the Watchtower has claimed elsewhere. The above figures is from 1974 and was given the year before Armageddon (that was supposed to be in the fall (October) 1975). Let us look at other figures:

    1950: 1,000 Witnesses executed 1,000 died in prison and concentration camps:

    *w50 12/15 500 — Already during the Hitler regime about 1,000 Jehovah’s witnesses were executed as traitors, because they not only refused to serve in the war but openly opposed Hitler’s authority. Another 1,000 of Jehovah’s witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.


    1951: 2,000 Witnesses died cruel deaths

    *w51 2/15 105-6 — That is why during the Nazi regime in Germany from 1933 to 1945 Jehovah’s witnesses in that land refused to heil Hitler! as their Fuehrer or Leader, and went to concentration camps and prisons, where 2,000 died cruel deaths, and of the 8,000 that came out alive, 2,000 were invalided for the rest of their lives.


    1960: 10,000 Witnesses were tortured

    *w60 6/1 327 — Hitler failed to break them in prisons and concentration camps where he tortured 10,000 of them, and the Communists are failing to do it in their frightful prisons and slave-labor camps.


    1964: Over 4,000 Witnesses died 10,000 Witnesses were put in concentration camps

    *w64 1/1 13 — Hitler, a Roman Catholic, the arm of his church in Germany, forbade Jehovah’s witnesses to preach the kingdom of God, and these modern-day Christians had to say to Hitler’s Gestapo police: ‘Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves.’ They kept preaching even though 10,000 of them were put in concentration camps and over 4,000 died there. The rest nearly starved to death. The war’s end aided their survival.


    1976: 203 Witnesses executed, 635 Witnesses died in prison A total of 6,019 Witnesses was arrested

    *w76 2/1 82 — ... a total of 6,019 had been arrested, several of them two, three, or even more times, so that, all together, 8,917 arrests were registered; and these persons served sentences amounting to 13,924 years in prison. Many of these faithful men and women were put into concentration camps and thus collectively spent 8,078 years undergoing vicious treatment there. A total of 635 died in prison, 253 were sentenced to death, with 203 of these actually being executed.


    1979: 203 Witnesses executed, 635 Witnesses died in prison A total of 6,019 Witnesses was arrested

    *w79 7/1 7-8 — By way of illustration, please consider the years 1933 to 1945, when Adolf Hitler’s “Third Reich" tried to exterminate Jehovah’s Witnesses in the German Reich. Their activities were banned and 6,019 were arrested, several of them two, three or more times. Two thousand suffered in concentration camps. A total of 635 Witnesses died in prison, 203 being executed.

    How Many Witnesses in Germany at the beginning of the Third Reich?

    1971: 14,453 Witnesses in Germany in 1932

    *** w71 1/1 16 Have You Entered the Great Contest of Faith? ***
    35 In 1932 when the last report was received from Germany and before the ban was placed on Jehovah’s witnesses, there were 14,453 sharing in the Kingdom declaration. By 1946, following the collapse of the German war machine and the opening of the gates of the concentration camps — but not the graves — there were 11,415 dedicated Christians still in the great contest for the faith. Ten years later this number grew to 50,530, and by 1970 in Western Germany there were 86,252 Christian witnesses of Jehovah.


    1975: 19,000 Witnesses in Germany in 1933

    g75 2/22 22 — Yet among the 19,000 German Jehovah’s witnesses in 1933, “a higher proportion (97 per cent) suffered some form of persecution than any of the other churches.”


    1995: 25,000 Witnesses in Germany at the beginning of the third rich.
    10,000 Witnesses in prison. 2,000 Witnesses in concentration camps.

    *** g95 8/22 10 The Evils of Nazism Exposed ***
    Why were Jehovah’s Witnesses so well acquainted with the concentration camps? When World War II started in 1939, there were already 6,000 Witnesses confined in camps and prisons. German historian Detlef Garbe estimates that the Witnesses constituted at that time between 5 and 10 percent of the total camp population! At a seminar on the Witnesses and the Holocaust, Garbe stated: “Of the 25,000 persons who admitted to being Jehovah’s Witnesses at the beginning of the Third Reich, about 10,000 were imprisoned for any length of time. Of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps. This means that the Jehovah’s Witnesses were, with the exception of the Jews, the worst persecuted by the SS of all the religious based groups.”
    No one among the Jehovah's Witnesses did of course bothered to tell Garbe that the number of people attending the memorial supper has little to do with the actual number of Jehovah's Witnesses. Being present at the memorial doesn’t mean that you ADMIT being a Jehovah's Witness.

    How Many Witnesses Came Out of the Camps?

    1950: 8,000 Witnesses came out of the Camps

    *** w50 5/15 153 Organized for United Testimony ***
    11 The most notorious case of persecution for living up to the name is that of the witnesses in Germany. They were banned by Hitler soon after he signed the concordat with the Vatican in 1933. Their property was confiscated. Ten thousand ministers were placed in concentration camps. Only eight thousand were released after World War II; two thousand had been murdered.


    1951: 8,000 Witnesses came out of the Camps

    *w51 2/15 105-6 — That is why during the Nazi regime in Germany from 1933 to 1945 Jehovah’s witnesses in that land refused to heil Hitler! as their Fuehrer or Leader, and went to concentration camps and prisons, where 2,000 died cruel deaths, and of the 8,000 that came out alive, 2,000 were invalided for the rest of their lives.


    1971: 11,415 Witnesses came out of the Camps?

    *** w71 1/1 16 Have You Entered the Great Contest of Faith? ***
    35 In 1932 when the last report was received from Germany and before the ban was placed on Jehovah’s witnesses, there were 14,453 sharing in the Kingdom declaration. By 1946, following the collapse of the German war machine and the opening of the gates of the concentration camps — but not the graves — there were 11,415 dedicated Christians still in the great contest for the faith.”


    1987: 9,000 Witnesses in Germany in 1946

    *** g87 5/22 15 Part 6: 1946-1959 Deceptive Prosperity Amid a Peace That Was Not *** Jehovah’s Witnesses preserved Christian neutrality during World War II and thereafter. Rebounding from Hitler’s attempts to destroy them, the number of active Witnesses in Germany increased from fewer than 9,000 in 1946 to over 52,000 within five years.

    The Yearbook of 1974 states that there was a TOTAL of 2,000 Witnesses in the camps! And that the number of deaths was "a total of 635"! Yet we see that the Watchtower throw around fantasy figures like 10,000 Witnesses in the camps, and 4,000 dead! Why?

    Norm

    F Celia posted Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:10:00 GMT(1/16/2002)

    Post 297 of 2197
    Joined 3/18/2001

    Yes, why, oh why !

    g75 2/22 22 — Yet among the 19,000 German Jehovah’s witnesses in 1933, “a higher proportion (97 per cent) suffered some form of persecution than any of the other churches.”
    Did they somehow forget that 6 millions Jews were killed ?

    OUTLAW posted Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:15:00 GMT(1/16/2002)

    Post 1094 of 24022
    Joined 10/11/2001

    Hey Norm,it`s just like Malowie.The more people suffer,the more dead bodies,the better the advertising!WATCH OUT McDONALDS!."McJO-HOES!" The Fast Spiritual Food restaraunt chain is coming to a neighborhood near you!...OUTLAW

    slipnslidemaster posted Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:20:00 GMT(1/16/2002)

    Post 1434 of 2385
    Joined 4/16/2001

    Dude, I totally LOVE your essays. This one was awesome as always!!!!

    Thank you!!

    I think that the number changed because the sick and infirm at the time were being multipled by .25 to get their numbers up (obscure reference to the new 15 minute rule for infirm and sick publishers).

    Slipnslidemaster:"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."
    - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

    Norm posted Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:33:00 GMT(1/16/2002)

    Post 453 of 660
    Joined 3/12/2001

    The suffering of the Jew’s was nothing compared to Jehovah's Witnesses

    They really have a great sense of reality in Brooklyn. Look at this:

    *** w60 1/15 43 The Great God Who Is "Doing Wondrous Things" ***
    During World War II, the stand of Jehovah’s witnesses in Germany in refusing to salute the Nazi swastika or heil Hitler, and their neutrality as regards his war of aggression, brought upon them one of the cruelest persecutions in history. One writer describes it: “When the witnesses did not give up the struggle for their religious convictions, a campaign of terror was launched against them which surpassed anything perpetrated against other victims of Nazism in Germany. . . . The sufferings of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the camps were even worse than those meted out to Jews, pacifists or Communists.

    Yes indeed! What is the suffering of millions of Jew’s compared to the horrible tragedy of 635 dead Jehovah's Witnesses? Who can ever dispute that?

    *** bf 550 24 Pouring Out the Seven Last Plagues Begins ***
    Let them verify by authentic recorded history whether the idolized “sun” of this old world ceased from its scorching heat after the “holy year” of 1933. Informed persons know that in that same year Hitler became dictator of Nazi Germany, a horrible Nazi persecution of Jehovah’s witnesses, worse than that on the Jews, began,..
    Somehow Brooklyn doesn’t seem to be able to even agree with themselves. It somehow turns out that someone in Brooklyn found out that the suffering of the Jews was worse off than Jehovah's Witnesses after all:

    *** g89 4/8 7 The Holocaust-Yes, It Really Happened! ***
    “The mistreatment on our arrival at Sachsenhausen is beyond human comprehension. Jews were sent into a separate camp inside the main camp. They had worse conditions than the others. For instance, the Jews had no sleeping shelves, only straw sacks on the floor. The barracks were so crammed that it was necessary to lie like sardines, with one man’s feet being at the next man’s head. In the morning, dead men were found lying next to the living. There was no medical care for the Jews.
    What a struggle they have had with this problem in Brooklyn. How can you best make a real horror story out of 635 dead? Well, they really have tried haven’t they? They have really milked it for all it’s worth.

    Norm.

    hillary_step posted Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:43:00 GMT(1/16/2002)

    Post 806 of 7241
    Joined 4/13/2001

    Good Work Norm,

    a horrible Nazi persecution of Jehovah’s witnesses, worse than that on the Jews, began,..

    I believe that this comment did not orginate with the WTS but was based on a comment made by a historian who wrote of the Nazi persecutions in general.

    Im travelling at present but have the book in my library and will pass the reference on to you.

    Best regards -- HS

    Norm posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:33:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 454 of 660
    Joined 3/12/2001

    Hi Hillary,

    Thank you but I know it was based on a book written by an American professor. Either he has been misquoted or the guy must have been the ultimate in professoral stupidity. I have no idea, I have met stupid professors before.

    *** w67 7/1 394 Developing and Displaying Self-Control ***
    5 In his book entitled “The Nazi State,” Professor Ebenstein of Princeton University wrote concerning Jehovah’s witnesses: “When the witnesses did not give up the struggle for their religious convictions, a campaign of terror was launched against them which surpassed anything perpetrated against other victims of Nazism in Germany. . . . The sufferings of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the camps were even worse than those meted out to Jews, pacifists or Communists. Small as the sect is, each member seems to be a fortress which can be destroyed but never taken.”
    This guy couldn't have done much research.

    Norm.

    M Abaddon posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:38:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 751 of 5179
    Joined 4/6/2001

    This is actually very useful; it means that you can sit down with a CD-ROM of the Societies publications, in fromt of a Witness, and using a simple search pull up a set of widely differing figures.

    Some of the 'mistakes' in publications are removed by the time they get on CD-ROM, but this won;t have been deal with by the Ministry of Truth yet...

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

    larc posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:05:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 3808 of 6511
    Joined 12/2/2000

    Norm,

    You have met stupid professors before?? I resemble that remark.

    Good work as always, brother Norm!

    M Henriksen posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:45:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 23 of 26
    Joined 11/29/2001

    Hi Norm,

    The Yearbook of 1974 states that there was a TOTAL of 2,000 Witnesses in the camps! And that the number of deaths was "a total of 635"! Yet we see that the Watchtower throw around fantasy figures like 10,000 Witnesses in the camps, and 4,000 dead! Why?

    As it's stated before 635 doesn't sound as much.

    Well the reason why the Watchtower still "throw around fantasy figures like 10,000 Witnesses in the camps, and 4,000 dead" I think have two reasons.

    First, they 'need' the big figurs to confirm their image as the persecuted people of the true God, one of many proofs that they are and have the truth.

    Secondly, "figures like 10,000 Witnesses in the camps, and 4,000 dead" as found in many non-JW books and articles talking about the JW's during the World War II has its origen indirectly from WT.

    When Christine Elizabeth King in 1982 released the book "The Nazi state and the new religions" she used the figurs 10,000/4,000. These figurs were given to her by the WT during her research in the subject. The WT knew this wasn't true, but it seems that they needed something more than just 635 dead. By helping King they now had a proof from a researcher that many tousands died in the Nazi camps.

    When writers to articles from WT is looking for figurs of dead in the camps all they have to do is give a reference to King or others. It conform their selfimage and if the figurs is wrong it's King's error, not the WTs.

    Henriksen

    Valentine posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:06:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 57 of 152
    Joined 1/9/2002

    Hi Norm,
    Kent has a book on this topic I recently sent him. It was published in Paris 1999,I think,and it had its american release recently. I didn't read it all,but he says it's loaded w/ fallacies. Bet he'll lend you the book. hugs,Tina

    Todays Affirmation:
    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign that the conspiracy is working.

    M GermanXJW posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:49:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 127 of 2470
    Joined 8/5/2001

    Initially, I want to repeat that I feel these remarks about death figures are tasteless.

    1. A few historians say that the JW persecution was worse, most say it was comparable to the Jew's persecution. Also Detlef Garbe quotes three historians that equal JW persecution to that of the Jews: Philip Friedman, Reiner W. Kühl and Friedrich Zipfel. The latter published in 1965 the standard book "Kirchenkampf in Deutschland" (Fight of the Churches in Germany).

    Those who say it's worse are in the minority and base their oppinion that the JW could always resign from their being JW. They just had to sign a paper. The JW were tortured to resign or to tell names. That is what these historians feel is worse. But they are the minority.

    2.[quote]"figures like 10,000 Witnesses in the camps, and 4,000 dead" as found in many non-JW books and articles talking about the JW's during the World War II has its origen indirectly from WT. [/unquote]

    After 1945, the WTS did not care about their persecution because the had to reorganize. For decades, hardly anybody in Germany wanted to hear facts about Nazis and their crimes because all wanted to forget about. The WTS did not care and they did not cooperate with historians with a "So what?" attitude.

    So, the first researches were not done in Germany. It was Canadian historian Michael H. Kater that based his researches on the US National Archives. With him originated the big figures. The WTS just copied from him.

    In the first edition of his book, Detlef Garbe said that he was sorry that the WTS was of no help. But in the beginning of the 90s the WTS started to do PR and they also build up the "Watchtower History Archives". Those had not been existent before. The collected anything to do with JW history in Germany especially the 30s. With the third edition of Garbe's book there is much use of the archives.

    That means that before the 90s the WTS did no and supported no scientific work to present facts about JW in Hitler-Germany.

    The first thing they published were the incomplete figures and assumptions they had. Then they quoted Kater and historians which mostly quoted Kater whose assumptions were too high as we know now.

    From the beginning of the 90s they quote Garbe who did the first extensive study after Kater and Zipfel. Since then they have done scientific work so that they found new files so that figures are still being corrected.

    To me, this is a normal historical work, that figures develop from mere guesses to more accurate ones.

    Norm posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:33:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 455 of 660
    Joined 3/12/2001

    Hi GermanJW,

    You Said:

    Initially, I want to repeat that I feel these remarks about death figures are tasteless.
    I agree. But I am uncertain what you mean. Is it tasteless of the WTS to exploit the tragic deaths of these people because of Rutherford's idiot policy or what? Do you actually mean that it is tasteless of me to reveal what despicable liars they are in Brooklyn?

    All of these "historians" are used to launder or whitewash the false and exaggerated figures that has all originated with the WTS themselves. How is it tasteless to point this obvious fact out?

    Look at this typical example:

    “The book Mothers in the Fatherland reported: “[Jehovah’s Witnesses] were sent to concentration camps, a thousand of them were executed, and another thousand died between 1933 and 1945. . . . Catholics and Protestants heard their clergy urge them to cooperate with Hitler. If they resisted, they did so against orders from both church and state.” The Watchtower January 1. 1989, page 21.

    This trick of quoting an outside source, which again is using the Watchtower as its source is not new. This method of “whitewashing” their own false figures is very deceptive. “Oh, this isn’t our numbers; the “researchers” have found it all out”. The source of the information in the “Mother of the Fatherland” book is quite evidently lifted from the Watchtower from 1950, which said:

    “Already during the Hitler regime about 1,000 Jehovah's witnesses were executed as traitors, because they not only refused to serve in the war but openly opposed Hitler's authority. Another 1,000 of Jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps,” The Watchtower December 15. 1950, page 500.
    So what's your real problem Gjw?

    Norm

    M GermanXJW posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:31:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 131 of 2470
    Joined 8/5/2001

    My problem is that you cut'n'paste this article every three months or so: "in 1950 they gave that figure, in 1970 they gave that figure and in 2002 they give this figure: and look they differ. I'm sure they knew from the beginning the right numbers"

    And I continue: No, they did not. They did not care after WWII because they did not see a benefit. When historians mentioned it, okay they quoted it as an "encouraging" article.

    My point is that the WTS did not really care about the figures before the 1990s.

    Focus posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:48:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 323 of 1068
    Joined 2/6/2001

    GermanJW wrote:

    My problem is that you cut'n'paste this article every three months or so: "in 1950 they gave that figure, in 1970 they gave that figure and in 2002 they give this figure: and look they differ. I'm sure they knew from the beginning the right numbers"

    Nowhere does Norm say or suggest that they knew from the beginning or at any early point what the right numbers were.

    What he did he say - and prove - was that the Watchtower recklessly and VERY repeatedly uttered figures as being authoritative which were then seen to be materially wrong, and it deceitfully quoted at least one source that itself was only quoting previous Watchtower mispeculation..

    But it is SO MUCH more convenient for you to argue against some strawman that you wish Norm had written, instead of what he did write -- isn't it? We do understand Theocratic War Strategy rather well, You Know.

    Or perhaps you are just a bit stupid. Which?

    And I continue: No, they did not.
    Set up strawman, knock it down, all small-brained dub-dubs cheer - do you love to fondle the mic while this happens? Does it ... You Know .. ?

    They did not care after WWII because they did not see a benefit.
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

    Never a truer word spoken!

    Don't believe what you read in the Watchtower - the authors, at the end of the day "do not care" about accuracy - what is of "benefit" to their cause is what is important.

    Thanks for that (well, we knew it already). You are such a persuasive Clown for your Cult.

    they quoted it as an "encouraging" article.

    Use of TWS against "god's People".... a bit like with the U.N. NGO lying, then?

    We understand "encouraging" too, GermanJW. It means "lying for a good cause; and we jWs get to determine what qualifies"

    I give you instead Job 13:7-11:
    "Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him? Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God? Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him? He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons. Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?"

    My point is that the WTS did not really care about the figures before the 1990s.
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

    Yeah... the figures being "1914", right?

    Then 1914 began to become a bit of a problem, in the 1990s.

    *** g94 11/8 10
    "The Real Significance of 1914 .. As indicated on page 4, 'this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.' No doubt many of our readers find that statement surprising. Yet, as far back as December 1879 - some 35 years before 1914 - The Watchtower (then known as Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence) gave Bible evidence proving that 1914 would be a significant year. Even before this-in the middle of the 19th century-other students of the Bible had hinted that 1914 was possibly a year marked in Bible prophecy.. This time of the end is, however, to be a relatively short period-stretching over one generation. (Luke 21:31,32) The fact that we are now 80 years beyond 1914 indicates that we can soon expect the deliverance that God's Kingdom will bring. This means that we will see 'the lowliest one of mankind' - Jesus Christ - take complete control of 'the kingdom of mankind' and bring about a peaceful and just new world. -Daniel 4:17.
    and what they had been prating on about for decades:

    *** g95 10/22 4
    Why Awake is Published .. Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.
    suddenly changed to:

    *** g95 11/8 4
    Why Awake is Published .. Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.
    and finally and most shamefully, a complete denial in the 1990s of the whole central plank of Watchtowerinsanity since the 1930s:

    *** w95 11/1 16-20
    A TIME TO KEEP AWAKE .. In all the nations the good news has to be preached first.. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.' - Mark 13:10,13. Endure we must - amid a faithless and twisted generation! Since 1914 a generation of people has become corrupt, just as in Jesus' day. And today the corruption is on a worldwide scale. In these 'last days,' the 'critical times hard to deal with' described by the apostle Paul are afflicting mankind. 'Wicked men and impostors continue to advance from bad to worse.' Clearly, 'the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,' Satan the Devil, who is now making his final effort to ruin the earth. But take courage! There is an oncoming 'great tribulation' that will bring permanent relief to all who love righteousness. -2 Timothy 3:1-5,13; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 7:14. Happily, Jehovah has now enthroned the Lord Jesus Christ in the heavens, preparatory to removing mankind's oppressive enemies. (Revelation 11:15) As at Messiah's first advent, so in this century a remarkable prophecy penned by Daniel has been fulfilled. At Daniel 4:16,17,32, we are told of the suspending of rightful kingship over the earth for a period of 'seven times.' In their major fulfillment, these seven times amount to seven Biblical years of 360 'days' each, or 2,520 years in all. (For detailed information on the 'seven times,' see pages 127-39,186-9 of the book 'Let Your Kingdom Come,' published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) They ran from 607 B.C.E., when Babylon began trampling underfoot the kingdom of Israel, to 1914 C.E., the year of Jesus' enthronement in heaven as mankind's rightful King. Then 'the appointed times of the nations' ended. (Luke 21:24) But the nations have declined to yield to the incoming Messianic Kingdom. -Psalm 2:1-6,10-12; 110:1,2. As the 70th week of years (29-36 C.E.) approached, and again as the year 1914 drew near, God-fearing people were expecting Messiah's arrival. And arrive he did! In each case, though, the manner of his appearing differed from the expectation. In each case too, after a comparatively brief time period, an evil 'generation' finally suffers execution by divine decree. -Matthew 24:34. In our preceding article, we noted how the wicked Jewish generation that called for the blood of Jesus met its end. What, then, of the ruinous generation of mankind that even now opposes or ignores him? When will judgment on this faithless generation be executed? 'Keep on the Watch'! After prophesying events leading up to a time of 'great tribulation,' Jesus added: 'Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.' (Matthew 24:3-36; Mark 13:3-32) We do not need to know the exact timing of events. Rather, our focus must be on being watchful, cultivating strong faith, and keeping busy in Jehovah's service - not on speculating a date. Jesus concluded his great prophecy by saying: 'Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.. Keep on the watch .. What I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch.' (Mark 13:33-37) Danger lurks in the shadows of today's world. We must keep awake! -Romans 13:11-13. Not only must we pay attention to the inspired prophecies concerning these final days of a wicked system but we must anchor our faith primarily on the precious sacrifice of Christ Jesus and God's marvelous promises based thereon. (Hebrews 6:17-19; 9:14; 1 Peter 1:18,19; 2 Peter 1:16-19) Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah's people have at times speculated about the time when the 'great tribulation' would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in,' not by speculating about how many years or days makeup a generation, but by thinking about how we 'count our days' in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12) Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term 'generation' as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics. (See Volume 1, page 918, of 'Insight on the Scriptures,' published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.. Suffering humanity will find relief when this violent, wicked generation passes away) .. Glorious 'new heavens and a new earth' lie just ahead for all races of mankind.. In line with the above, professor of history Robert Wohl wrote in his book The Generation of 1914: 'A historical generation is not defined by its chronologic limits.. It is not a zone of dates.' But he pointed out that World War I created an overwhelming sense of rupture with the past,' and he added: 'Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.' How true that is! It focuses on the crux of the matter. 'This generation' of mankind since 1914 has experienced appalling changes. It has seen the earth drenched with the blood of millions. Warfare, genocide, terrorism, crime, and lawlessness have erupted worldwide. Famine, disease, and immorality have stalked our globe. Jesus prophesied: 'You also, when you (his disciples) see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur.' -Luke 21:31,32. Yes, the complete triumph of the Messianic Kingdom is at hand! Is anything to be gained, then, by looking for dates or by speculating about the literal lifetime of a 'generation'? Far from it! Habakkuk 2:3 clearly states: 'The vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.' Jehovah's day of accounting hastens ever closer. -Jeremiah 25:31-33; Malachi 4:1. When Christ's Kingdom rule began in 1914, Satan was hurled down to earth. This has meant 'woe for the earth .. because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.' (Revelation 12:12) That time is short, indeed, compared with the thousands of years of Satan's rulership. The Kingdom is at hand, and so is Jehovah's day and hour for executing judgment on this wicked generation! -Proverbs 3:25; 10:24,25. The 'Generation' That Passes Away .. Let us examine more closely Jesus' statement at Matthew 24:34,35: 'Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.' Jesus' words that follow show that 'nobody knows that day and hour.' Far more important, he shows that we must avoid the snares surrounding us in this generation. Thus Jesus adds: 'For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.' (Matthew 24:36-39) Jesus here compared the generation of his day to that of Noah's day. -Genesis 6:5,9; footnote. This was not the first time that the apostles heard Jesus make this comparison of 'generations,' for some days earlier he had stated concerning himself: 'The Son of man .. must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man.' (Luke 17:24-26) Thus, Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 17 make the same comparison. In Noah's day 'all flesh (that) had ruined its way on the earth' and that was destroyed at the Flood was 'this generation.' In Jesus' day the apostate Jewish people that were rejecting Jesus was 'this generation.' -Genesis 6:11,12; 7:1. Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, 'this generation' apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways. In contrast, we as Jesus' disciples refuse to be molded by the life-style of 'this generation.' Though in the world, we must be no part of it, 'for the appointed time is near.' (Revelation 1:3; John 17:16) The apostle Paul admonishes us: 'Keep doing all things free from murmurings and arguments, that you may come to be blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you are shining as illuminators in the world.' -Philippians 2:14,15; Colossians 3:5-10; 1 John 2:15-17. Our 'shining as illuminators' includes not only displaying a clean Christian personality but, above all, fulfilling Jesus' prophetic commission: 'This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.' (Matthew 24: 14) No human can say when that end will be, but we know that the end of 'this generation' of wicked people will come once the witness has been given to God's satisfaction 'to the most distant part of the earth.' -Acts 1:8. 'That Day and Hour' .. When the global witness has been accomplished to the extent Jehovah purposes, it will be his 'day and hour' to dispose of this world's system. We do not need to know the date in advance. Thus, following Jesus' example, the apostle Paul admonished: 'Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah's day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: 'Peace and security!' then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.' Note Paul's focus: 'It is when they are saying.' Yes, when there is talk of 'peace and security,' when it is least expected, God's judgment will suddenly be executed. How appropriate is Paul's advice: 'So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses'! -1 Thessalonians 5: 1-3,6; see also verses 7-11; Acts 1:7. Does our more precise viewpoint on 'this generation' mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the 'day and hour,' Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change. (Malachi 3:6) Obviously, the world is sinking further and further toward terminal ruination. The need to keep awake is more critical than it has ever been. Jehovah has revealed to us 'the things that must shortly take place,' and we should respond with an absorbing sense of urgency. -Revelation 1:1; 11:18; 16:14,16. As the time approaches, keep awake, for Jehovah is about to bring calamity on all of Satan's system! (Jeremiah 25:29-31) Jehovah says: 'I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.' (Ezekiel 38:23) That decisive 'day of Jehovah' draws near! -Joel 1:15; 2:1,2; Amos 5:18-20; Zephaniah 2:2,3. Righteous 'New Heavens and a New Earth' .. Concerning 'all these things that must occur' Jesus said: 'Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.' (Matthew 24:34,35) Jesus likely had in mind the 'heaven and earth' - the rulers and the ruled - of 'this generation.' The apostle Peter used similar words in referring to 'the heavens and the earth that are now,' which are 'stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.' He next describes how 'Jehovah's day will come as a thief, in which the (governmental) heavens will pass away' together with a corrupt human society, or earth,' and its sinful works. The apostle then exhorts us to 'holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, (as we are) awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens being on fire will be dissolved and the elements being intensely hot will melt!' What follows? Peter turns our attention to 'new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness is to dwell.' -2 Peter 3:7,10-13. (See also pages 152-6 and 180-1 of 'Our Incoming World Government-God's Kingdom,' published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.) 'Those 'new heavens,' the Kingdom rule by Christ Jesus and his associate kings, will shower blessings on the righteous 'new earth' society of mankind. Are you a prospective member of that society? If so, you have reason to exult over the grand future in store! -Isaiah 65:17-19; Revelation 21:1-5. 'Yes, a righteous 'generation' of mankind is even now being gathered. Today the anointed 'faithful and discreet slave' is providing divine education in line with the words of Psalm 78:1,4: 'Do give ear, 0 my people, to my law; incline your ear to the sayings of my mouth .. relating them even to the generation to come, the praises of Jehovah and his strength and his wonderful things that he has done.' (Matthew 24:45-47) On April 14 of this year, in more than 75,500 congregations and in some 230 lands, over 12,000,000 persons around the earth attended the Memorial of Christ's death. Were you among them? May you rest your faith on Christ Jesus and 'call on the name of Jehovah for salvation.' -Romans 10:10-13. 'The time left is reduced,' said the apostle Paul. It is time, therefore, to keep ever awake and busy in Jehovah's work, as we endure trials and hatreds imposed by a wicked generation of mankind. (1 Corinthians 7:29; Matthew 10:22; 24:13,14) Let us keep on the watch, observing all the things foretold in the Bible to come upon 'this generation.' (Luke 21:31-33) By escaping these things and by standing with divine approval before the Son of man, we may at last attain to the prize of everlasting life.. Why should we endure and take courage? How was prophecy fulfilled in 1914? .. What does Jesus basically mean by generation'?.. How do Jehovah's prophets stress the need to keep awake? What developments since 1914 show that the time is short? How is 'this generation' like that of Noah's day?.. Why should we not think that Armageddon is further away than we may have believed?.. What great privilege may we now enjoy? Since 'the time left is reduced,' how must we keep awake, and with what prospect in view?
    So all those trusting, old people who had spent their lives slaving for a publishing empire in the forlorn belief that they were doing the work of some (insane) "god", and who were pretty sure they would never die (well, at least not for a thousand years), suddenly got told they probably would die.

    Tell me, do you sleep at night, GermanJW, spreading this proven foul infection from door to door (but not in the front door and out from the back door, as F.Franz said Jesus prohibited - or haven't you read "In Search of Christian Freedom"?)?

    Yes, the Watchtower started being more careful about its figures in 1990s. The Generartion was getting dead.

    And sure, we see some idiot truly wrote:

    My point is that the WTS did not really care about the figures before the 1990s.
    But it sure started caring about them in the 1990s.... as we saw

    Now I could say:

    Run along now, you pathetic little man, before you get me riled. Your spiritually-diseased "brain" is not capable of understanding more of the real truth in one session. Run back to your filthy, disgusting abomination of a spiritual-mother, the Great Whore, and commit spiritual-adultery and spiritual-fornication with her - some spiritual-pedophilia too with youir spiritual-siblings if you wish - and attach your miserable mouth back to her diseased, spiritually-pus-filled pap, and then recommence your spiritual-pimping for her.

    But, I won't!

    Instead, I'll visit your head when you are asleep. You still have a conscience, notwithstanding mamma's attempts to stifle it.

    And, not to forget:

    My point is that the WTS did not really care about the figures before the 1990s.
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

    --
    Focus
    (Taught to HATE by the Watchtower Experts! Class)

    fodeja posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:15:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 321 of 353
    Joined 4/9/2001
    Set up strawman, knock it down, all small-brained dub-dubs cheer - do you love to fondle the mic while this happens? Does it ... You Know .. ?

    Why is it that lately, on this board, anyone who doesn't agree one-hundred-percent with the most radical anti-JW stance is labeled a reactionary by some vocal nitwits?

    Isn't that exactly the same black-and-white, us-versus-them thinking that we attribute to those stupid JWs?

    Painting GJW as a WTS defender is simply ridiculous and goes to show that you didn't even take a second and check his previous writings. You didn't even really read his writings in this thread.

    Apparently, you can get some dubs out of the Watchtower, but you can't get the Watchtower out of some dubs. Pathetic.

    f.

    hillary_step posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:40:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 812 of 7241
    Joined 4/13/2001

    Hello Norm,

    I have met stupid professors before.

    lol - I agree - While at University some of my Professors would have referred to me as ‘stupid’, but I have had my vengeance since. They called me ‘stupid’ for four years, I got to call them ‘stupid’ for the rest of my life. Ain’t life sweet!

    The source of the information in the "Mother of the Fatherland" book is quite evidently lifted from the Watchtower from 1950, which said:

    Actually, to do her justice, Claudia Koonz cites Gitta Sereny’s book - ‘Into that Darkness - From Mercy Killing To Mass Murder’ as source material for her quotation.

    This of course in not terrible important compared to the WTS forty-year project in producing accurate figures for the martyrdom of its own adherents. The lives laid down were arguably unnecessary sacrifices, but what is more distressing is the fact that they are continually and excessively used by the WTS as PR to its own ‘marketing’ ends. This brings dignity to no martyr, but actually diminishes the value of heroes, who for whatever cause faced the Nazis with courage.

    Best regards -- HS

    Focus posted Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:18:00 GMT(1/17/2002)

    Post 325 of 1068
    Joined 2/6/2001

    fodeja wrote:
    [all nonsense snipped - leaving nothing behind]

    Well, well, now who likes the ad hominem attack, then?

    I specifically refuted GermanJW's false style of argumentation and his unsupportable position. You did nothing of the sort with what I wrote - you just attacked. At whose table are you feeding?

    You chose to gloss over my proof of GjW's strawman / misrepresentation of Norm's position.

    You chose to gloss over GjW's implied support for these WT articles, containing among other things "encouraging" words saying that German jWs (70%+ of whom survived the concentration camps) individually suffered more persecution than Jews (1%- of whom survived the concentration camps).

    Could there be a reason for this, I wonder?

    And he is not a Defender (you fodeja used that strawman against me), else I would have been fierce. GjW is merely an occasional apologist, bless his sole, and I have lovingly corrected him.

    Please, learn to think first prior to ejaculating. It may save you a great deal in the long run.

    Hope that helped!

    --
    Focus
    (Anti-Becker Class)

    fodeja posted Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:18:00 GMT(1/18/2002)

    Post 323 of 353
    Joined 4/9/2001
    You chose to gloss over my proof of GjW's strawman / misrepresentation of Norm's position.

    Yes! I chose to gloss over what little argumentation you presented because calling someone "a clown for his cult", "perhaps a bit stupid", an "idiot" and "spreading foul infection" goes to show that you're pretty much uninterested in sensible discussion, but love to hear yourself getting all worked up in front of an audience. Self-confidence problems, hm? Nobody listening when you're talking at home?

    That's just my very humble opinion of course.

    f.

    M GermanXJW posted Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:08:00 GMT(1/18/2002)

    Post 133 of 2470
    Joined 8/5/2001

    FOCUS:

    Nowhere does Norm say or suggest that they knew from the beginning or at any early point what the right numbers were.

    What he did he say - and prove - was that the Watchtower recklessly and VERY repeatedly uttered figures as being authoritative which were then seen to be materially wrong, and it deceitfully quoted at least one source that itself was only quoting previous Watchtower mispeculation..

    But it is SO MUCH more convenient for you to argue against some strawman that you wish Norm had written, instead of what he did write -- isn't it? We do understand Theocratic War Strategy rather well, You Know.

    I referred to Norm:

    As we can see, the Watchtower did have accurate figures. The Watchtower leaders have always been “control freaks”, and “Judge” Rutherford was not less so than the later leaders.

    Maybe, I misunderstood him because English is not my mother mother tongue.

    But you got me right in this: they did not care about the figures before 1990.

    I have some problems with your ad hominem attacks on my person including ridiculing my position. Must have been a hard time for you as a JW, surpressing all this aggression - or were you an Elder? ;-)

    I think you are mentally a step far out of it when you don't get aggressive when discussing it.

    There is some work to do for all of us.

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